No hand luggage on UK flights ...............

[Rob Roy]

Well said (Mrs) Mozman.

[quote user="Judith"]Somewhere in all this a sense of proportion has to be re-introduced.  Of course, they want to kill.  Of course, we don't want even one plane to be affected this way - BUT - does the governent intend to put such draconian regulations into place that no-one will fly and the commercial world becomes paralysed?  I note what John said about the IRA threat in the 70s - and know people who felt the same, but were determined not to let the b****** win by giving in.  It is obvious that this state of high alert cannot go on for ever - but the other point not made clear - will the restrictions be lifted asap (as they say they will) or is this government (and John Reid who is only covering his back after all in his comments) so frightened about the consequences that they will keep them on much longer than required.  O -  for a Churchill or a Thatcher to stand up for reason!
[/quote]

Ahh - so is it the really the current government you are complaining about, or the restrictions put in place today? The comments repeated by John Reid had already been said by the Assistant Police Commissioner, but I suppose he was only covering his back as well. I would think that, although 21 suspects are already under arrest, while the police carry out more searches etc in various parts of the country the security forces want to be sure they have detained as many people as possible that could be linked to this particular cell or group. Apparently the plan was to blow up a minimum of three transatlantic planes over the ocean, then the same again a couple of days later, and then again after that; with some of the bomb making device carried as liquid in fizzy drink bottles. It is being quoted that it was potentially more catastrophic than 9/11.

[Cassis]

But does it mean we now have to keep these precautionary measures for ever?  How can anyone be sure that there isn't another plot that the security agencies don't know about, either now or in the future? 

I'm not taking a view that this is an overreaction - it's just that I can't see how, if this is the correct solution to the threat, the UK govt can ever let its guard down in the forseeable future and go back to the previous (presumably inadequate) security measures.

[Just Katie]

It really is no big deal.  Just another new rule.  Just like locking the control cabin door.  As simple as.

[Cassis]

Try telling that to the passengers at Heathrow - I think locking the cockpit door causes a bit less disruption! [:)]

[Judith]

Ian

I can't stop myself either.  Of course I know what time of day it is - not only am I old enough to have seen it all before, and thus don't necessarily accept all I see and hear,  I have lived in Central London (in the thick of it) for 18 years, I work near Scotland Yard, and I am fully aware of the naure of the threat, the news etc.  It is part of my work to read and analyse the news daily so I know that some limitations have to be put in place - I have to cope with then on a daily basis - but I still maintain that the sense of proportion is missing.  Incidentally, I am not alone in these thoughts - our receptionist who came on a lunchtime (mid-70s, Jamaican born) is also complaining about the incessant overkill.  A sense of proportion is all that I am asking for, not over-the-top reaction.  You learn to live with most irrtitions such as today, but each time this happens we lose more of our liberties, and some of the freedoms we have lost in the other attacks not been restored, and that continuing loss is what concerns me.

[Just Katie]

[quote user="Cassis"]Try telling that to the passengers at Heathrow - I think locking the cockpit door causes a bit less disruption! [:)]
[/quote]

Yes Cassis, there is disruption today.  I am flying tomorrow and will turn up with no hand luggage and, so will a high percentage of other passengers resulting in less disruption. I seriously dont get what all the fuss is about.[8-)][:)]

[Rosebud]

[quote user="Mozman"]Talk of share prices at this time shows a lack of real sense of values IMO. (Well clearly with the exception of Share values anyway.) Shares always react like this...and will bounce back quickly enough. [/quote]

Please don't presume to criticise my values.  I was merely illustrating the global impact of todays events, which will no doubt reverberate for some time to come.

If this 'plot' has been known about for months, then so why are we wtinessing such chaos and upheaval just today?

Maybe somebody can elighten me?

 

 

 

[Cassis]

Does anyone know how they are handling all the hand luggage that has to go in the hold?  Does each passenger's stuff go in a box with a cloakroom ticket? 

Is it true they are taking away even things like electronic car keys, spectacle cases etc.? 

[Blanche Neige]

"Is it true they are taking away even things like electronic car keys, spectacle cases etc.?  "

Yes, on the lunchtime news they listed what could be taken in a clear plastic bag in the cabin ;

Passports, specs without case, essential sanitary items for females, babies bottles (but the mother would have to show that these in fact contain milk by drinking a little of the milk in front of sec. guards) medicaton but liquids would have to be proved to be prescription / medicinal,

Edit you can also take your wallet.

No books / papers, no iPods, no laptops or mobile phones, no handbags all this stuff has to be packed in the passengers hold luggage. No duty free or airport shopping.

Text message from my sister stuck at Marseille airport,

"why Alert? Is it suspect bomb or other? We are at MRS in queue of disgruntled people."[8-)]

 

Later message said

"all Easyjet flts cancelled today [:(] what are the chances of a seat on the train?"

Edit:

I looked up trains times on SNCF for her, replied to her text with details and she and friend are now booked on night train to Lille and then to London arr. 11.00 ish Friday. Not a cheap option by any means but at least she won't be hanging around the airport for days.

[Suze01]

I cannot understand Judith's reaction to today's news.  The police have clearly been carrying out intense surveillance on a number of people for a considerable time and there is clear intelligence if an imminent attack on an unprecedented scale.  I do not think that there has been any sort of over-reaction.  A bomb isn't necessarily two sticks of dynamite with a fuse wire attached - this is the 21st century and terrorists are sadly very creative when concocting a bomb, as another poster said, bombs can be made out of innocuous looking items.

[Sunday Driver]

What's this sense of proportion, Judith?  Would you have prefered the government to have dithered a bit, so that the undiscovered bombers could bring forward their plans and race to Heathrow to get on planes before the security services get around to reacting?

The present state of high alert is commensurate with the present risk.  If they had called it any other way, and been proved wrong, then that would have been political suicide for any government, whether it be led by Blair, Thatcher or Ghengis Khan.  No government could survive in the face of an outraged electorate whose relatives had been slaughtered in the carnage over the Atlantic Ocean.

"You learn to live with most irritations such as today" - I've never heard such a totally self-centred and arrogant statement.  Ask the relatives of the PanAm Flight 103 victims about irritations.

Loss of freedoms?  Get used to it and adjust your life accordingly.

 

[Salty Sam]

With 25 years involvement in security matters in one form or another, I feel I must offer comment.

The current security threat is in place for a reason. It is nothing to do with the government gaining brownie points, it's down to intelligence gathering of the security services - in place to safeguard our future, and yes - that includes you Judith!

Some of the comments I've seen and heard today make me want to throttle some people.

For example from a young mother at Manchester Airport, "The kids can't have their Playstation! What are they supposed to do during the flight?"

A disgruntled passenger at Glasgow Airport, " How can my bottle of water and mobile phone be a security threat?"

IED's or Improvised Explosive Devices, come in all shapes and sizes and guises.

The current situation suggests a liquid fuelled device with a secondary substance acting as the catalyst.

Security devices in place at airports 'sniff' for explosives or parts thereof. If they were programmed to be able to sniff for everything and anything that could be used in a device, we would never get beyond the check in and girls, you would have to forsake dousing yourself in that expensive perfume!

Electrical items including key fobs, phones, toys, etc could be the trigger to detonate a device or could be used as the detonation device itself.

I don't propose going into further detail but the one good thing that should come out of today is the fact everyone is made fully aware of the possibility of a terrorist strike and to be prepared andexpect the hassles of transport delays and extra security checks be they at airports, ferry ports or other transport terminals.

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Judith"]I think that this is all overkill - as with the July bomb attacks last year. 

[/quote]

[blink]

I'm sure someone else has responded to this - I haven't read all the thread yet. But I can't let it pass...

Surely better overkill in response than overkill in the air. And I would love to see you make that statement to any of the relatives and friends who had someone killed in July last year. Or those who lived but lost limbs, eyes, whatever else in the attacks - I think they'd be delighted to discuss what you feel is the loss of any sense of proportion in this.

[Mozman]

[quote] Please don't presume to criticise my values. [/quote]

Why not? You anyone special? Everybody judges/criticises/ questions the opinions and values of others on the basis of what they say and do. You yourself have no problem, it seems to me, criticising/judging/ questioning/ however you choose to label  it ...the security services.

  [quote]I was merely illustrating the global impact of todays events, which will no doubt reverberate for some time to come. [/quote]

Maybe so. But I think thats a bit like Winston Churchill angsting over the effect on Britains economy while the battle of Britain was in full swing. Clearly it will have some kind of effect but that a) cannot be avoided and b) is secondary to public safety.

[quote]If this 'plot' has been known about for months, then so why are we wtinessing such chaos and upheaval just today?[/quote] 'Presume' much? 

If you allowed yourself the indulgence of a little thought you would conclude that intelligence gathering is complex and usually involving many locations and countries. They cannot simply go in half cocked and arrest people without evidence. The risk would be that they only caught a few minions and didn't nip it in the bud. And the only way to avoid the 'chaos' is to let the public know in advance...and of course that would tend to tip off the terrorists too.

[Dick Smith]

Judith - you are a terrorist's friend. They can always rely on some halfwit saying it's all an over-reaction and then fighting against security. And then we have another atrocity.

Do you remember when Charles Kennedy and several others said that security alerts were just propaganda? That was just before July 2005...

[Pads]

Just a small thought on this . What is the point of mother with babies bottle with bomb chemicals in it drinking it as she is carrying it to die anyway so she wont worry about drinking some of it, it wont kill her on the spot? she can still get on the plane with it?[:(]

[TWINKLE]

Hi pads!

Exactly the same thought that went through my mind! 

 Shall we apply for M-I5 jobs and do moonlight shifts when hubbys are away on tour?

[Dick Smith]

The chemicals concerned are probably caustic/active enough to cause a lot of pain and discomfort in the mouth - which would show on the woman's face I suspect.

[Pads]

twinkle did i not tell you what my night job was, been with MI5 now for 9 years or is that MFI[8-)] 

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]The chemicals concerned are probably caustic/active enough to cause a lot of pain and discomfort in the mouth - which would show on the woman's face I suspect.
[/quote]

Don't forget that  women are used to hiding their disgust when it comes to bad tastes in the mouth - Dick[:-))]

I knew you had to be a spy Pads - your spelling is atrocious[:)]

[Pads]

just pmed you although it was cat not car

[Hoddy]

I flew from East Midlands to Bergerac yesterday. I was with my partner, my daughter and my two grandchildren. I was glad security was tight.

While we discuss whether the  government has over reacted, let's not forget where the blame really lies. It's with the fanatics who are willing to carry out such outrages.

Hoddy

[Russethouse]

Give it a week and Shami  Chakrabarti will be on our screens ..........( I know I'm a dreadful old cynic)

[chris pp]

"While we discuss whether the  government has over reacted, let's not forget where the blame really lies. It's with the fanatics who are willing to carry out such outrages."

Yes indeed, Hoddy, let's not forget the fanatics, where ever they are.

No doubt we all have different views on who they are.

Chris

 

[Rosebud]

[quote] Why not? You anyone special? Everybody judges/criticises/ questions the opinions and values of others on the basis of what they say and do. You yourself have no problem, it seems to me, criticising/judging/ questioning/ however you choose to label  it ...the security services.[/quote]

I did not, in any of my above posts, cristicise/question/judge the security services.  On the contrary, I applaud their work, and I applaud the typically stoic reaction of the British public to todays events. 

[quote]Maybe so. But I think thats a bit like Winston Churchill angsting over the effect on Britains economy while the battle of Britain was in full swing. Clearly it will have some kind of effect but that a) cannot be avoided and b) is secondary to public safety. [/quote]

I wasn't 'angsting' over the ecomomy, merely pointing out another way in which the terrorists are succeeding.  Of course it is meaningless in comparison to public safety, but it is NOT secondary to the terrorist cause.

[quote]If you allowed yourself the indulgence of a little thought you would conclude that intelligence gathering is complex and usually involving many locations and countries. They cannot simply go in half cocked and arrest people without evidence. The risk would be that they only caught a few minions and didn't nip it in the bud. And the only way to avoid the 'chaos' is to let the public know in advance...and of course that would tend to tip off the terrorists too. [/quote]

Mozman, it's a shame the only way you can get your point over is to resort to personal insults. It's disappointing that you didn't allow yourself the indulgence of reflection before you reacted to my post.

For everybody else out there, perhaps I should simplify my question: is air travel is less safe today than it was last week? and moreover, will it be safer after today?