Keeping Uk Residency?

[blackcat]

We have just started to look into a move to France. We'd like to take my mum whos nearly 80 but want to keep it as simple for her as possible. Can she keep her UK residency? Her UK property and investments would remain in the UK and her pensions to be paid into Uk accounts as normal. Could she just open a french bank and transfer funds over as and when she needed? What would she need as far as healthcare was concerned, baring in mind her age?  Any advice or information appreciated.

 

 

[Bob T]

If she spends less than 6 months here and more than 6 months in the UK then she will remain UK resident. I would have thought that tax wise she would be better off being French resident anyway, if she were French resident then she would be in the French health system.

[egger]

I dont think that is possible. If she spends more than so many days in France, then she will have to reg here. It is very simple, she can keep everything in uk, she can open a bank account here and even get her pension paid in euros from the UK to her French account. She can get a E121 from England for her health care, but France only pay 70% and then you buy a top up, so England will only pay 70%. You dont have to buy a top up, but remember if she became ill you would be expected to pay the short fall. Thats it really, Im sure if I am wrong someone will come on and tell you., but really you would be better to telephone the English help lines and they would be able to tell you everything you need to know.

Oh just a thought I dont know where she would be taxed, but someone else will tell you that.

Hope this helps alittle

[jimmytaktak]

Bonjour. Je tient à préciser qu'en France tout est possible. Votre mère peut garder sa résidence britanique. Elle peut ouvrir un compte en banque en France et y transférer ce dont elle a besoin quand elle le désir. En ce qui conceerne les soins de santé, elle peut demander une carte européenne d'assurance maladie. J'espère avoir pu vous aider.

[jimmytaktak]

Sorry ! Translation :

Hello. I make a point of specifying that in France all is possible. Your mother can keep her British residence. She can open a bank account in France and transfer what she needs when she want. In what concern the health care, it can require a European card of health insurance. I hope to have been able to help you.

[Russethouse]

No, the 'European Card of Health' insurance is only for emergency use on holiday and similar  it isn't meant for people who are in the country on a long term basis AFAIK

[ebaynut]

This would depend on how much her UK property and investments were worth.

Be aware that if she lives offically full time in France, she will be subject to the rules there. Only real estate in another country can be disposed of as she wishes, when she unfortunantly passes on.

Her worldwide assets (excluding real estate in countries other than France) would be subject to French inheritance rules.

Of course if she only "visited" for short periods and did not need the services in France much, who is to know where she is living?

She would 'officially' become French resident when she has been in the country for six months, or from when she decided it was a full time move.

She could be just "trying out" France before making a final decision on the full time move to her daughter/sons place.    [;-)]

If we are talking large amounts here it would be best to see an adviser.

[cooperlola]

She can use her EHIC for the first three months.  After that - if she intends to make France her home for more than half of the year - then she is a French resident - as said above, like it or not.  It really is not complicated and her E121 would cover her heathcare as for any French person (70% or so except for some long-term chronic conditions and illnesses which are covered 100%) so the advice to get top up insurance is good, as at an advanced age hospital costs could be steep.  If she chose to "get away with" using her EHIC long term, then there's a good chance that the authorities would smell a rat if she needed prolonged treatment and was very obviously living with you.  The UK would most likely refuse to honour any payments and you and your mother would end up copping for the lot!

For the sake of a bit of paperwork, which you'll have to do for yourselves anyway, I would not take the risk with an elderly person who might need a lot of healthcare - no matter how fit she is now.

[Ron Avery]

As Coops has pointed out she cannot retain her UK residency and as a resident she would not be covered by an EHIC although would be entitled to an E121.

That aside, the wisdom of this move needs careful thought and as eBaynut has said proffessional advice should be sought as to the tax and inheritance issues.

What I would be more concerned about is if this woman leads an independent life in the UK, has friends and a social life even drives a car, does she really want to spend her last days in a foreign country out of her comfort zone,  not being able to go where and when she wants?  Only being able to converse with English friends of the OP, miles away from her friends, not being able to talk to the Doctor, optician, dentist or nurse?

Many elderley relatives have found this idealic move to be one to a life of total misery, complete isolation and reliance on their relatives who in many cases have their own established lives and agendas and little time to worry about them or their needs. This leads to resentment and misery all round.

Of course this does not apply to all of such moves but it is increasingly becoming a problem as people solve the problems of the elderly parents left behind in the UK by dumping them in an annexe in France and then wishing they had not brought them here and the parents wishing they were back in the UK.

[Russethouse]

Good points Ron - I would certainly try initially to have long visits rather than a permanent arrangement - apart from anything else and depending on the current arrangement, it may alter your relationship with your mother, and possibly not in a positive way.

I have an 87 year old mother and in the past had my elderly father in law living with me, I think I would be inclined to 'hasten slowly'

[cooperlola]

I heartily agree with the two posters above.  Might be easier all round if she tried it for 3 months (and you too of course!), preferably in the winter when things can be very quiet.  Personally, I wouldn't contemplate what you're doing but of course I know nothing about your relationship - and how many ties your mother has in the UK.  But I'd rather budget for a few trips a year in both directions for all of you, than go down this road.  I go to see my mother on a regular basis (she is 84 and very active) - I know she would be really bored and unhappy here and I think we'd probably end up wanting to do one another in!

[Hoddy]

From a personal relationships point of view I agree with RH and Coops.

On a practical level I’m not sure that it could be made to work. sara77’s mother would be covered for the first 70% of any health care costs while on ‘holiday’. The problems arise with the top up insurance for the rest which is very difficult for the over 70s to obtain for any period longer than sixty days. Obviously each person’s circumstances are different, but I can’t see any way that this could be made to work without great expense.

Hoddy

[Russethouse]

A relation of mine (70 years of age) visited the USA last year on an annual world wide poilicy, considering he had a quadruple heart by pass op over 20 years I thought it was a 'deal' perhaps that sort of poicy would be an option ?

[Will]

I would just point out that under French taxation rules you are considered French fiscally resident if:

Your main home is in France.
Your family or dependants are in France.
Your main financial interests are in France.
You spend more than half of the year in France.

There are other criteria too, but you only have to fulfil one of the above. So, effectively, you cannot choose where you are taxed. Things get complicated further by the fact that in France you are taxed as a household rather than as individuals, but the double taxation agreements take care of most eventualities.

You are also required to pay into the French social security system (or, if you are 'economically inactive', hold suitable private health assurance) if you spend more time in France than in any other country, unless covered by a E-form. Presumably as an OAP she would be eligible for an E121, so will be covered by that.

[Hoddy]

"A relation of mine (70 years of age) visited the USA last year on an annual world wide poilicy, considering he had a quadruple heart by pass op over 20 years I thought it was a 'deal' perhaps that sort of poicy would be an option ?"

I think these annual world wide policies all have limits as to the number of days you can be out of the country. So even though it's an annual policy you can't usually do more than 60 days out of the country on any one trip.

At least that was our experience with my 79 year old very fit relative.

Hoddy

[mint]

The policies also tend to exclude "pre-existing" conditions which always worry me.  What if you get something "new" but which can be tenuously linked to a pre-existing condition?  Eg, you're overweight and you get a stroke and when you try to claim they tell you that the stroke is related to your overweight condition?  Far-fetched I know but then I also have had some dealings with insurance companies![:-))]

[Val_2]

Is this her dream too? I say this because many people moving here to live permanently leave behind elderly parents because they know in their heart of hearts they are trying to soften the blow of moving away by offering to take them along too when,to be honest they probably don't want to leave everything they know and love behind after all those years. Yes, there are those adventurous oldies who will upsticks and go with the kids but too many are already entrenched intheir own lives and will end up miserable and cut off if they do not speak french,stuck in a foreign hospital if the need arises and many other things that are likely to crop up. I suggest if you have not already done so, have a long heart to heart with your mother and maybe it would be best for her to visit for several weeks at a time so she still has HER life and a new experience with you.

[mint]

Val, that really is THE most sensible reply anyone could come up with.  I hope the OP will now have some food for thought, might be indigestible but at least better that than regurgitation later?[:(]

[dr orloff]

I think sara77 can decide for herself what is best socially for her own mother.  From a practical perspective then I would suggest that although it is easy enough to transfer to the french health system, matters of tax and inheritance are not straightforward.   Professional advice is essential if residence in France is taken up.  As long as sara77's mother retains somewhere to live in the UK - who's going to know where she actually is? 

[Russethouse]

who's going to know where she actually is? 

Any official that wants to, unless she can actually walk on water - getting across the chanel generates a 'trail' easily checked by authorities.

You are right, only Sara can know her mothers situation well enough to judge, but some of us who may love our elderly parents dearly, have experience in actually living with them as an adult and are are advising caution - it's up to Sara how much notice she takes...

[cooperlola]

Anyway, I'm sure that although - as you say Dr Orloff - only Sara can tell whether they could live together, maybe some of those of us who live over here, realise how difficult it can be for even the fittest and most gregarious person to make friends (especially given the language problems for some) which can put an added strain on any relationship.  As said above, if it were me, and given that Sara's mother can seemingly afford to keep her house on, why don't they give it a three month trial - a length of stay that is problem free as regards health, taxes etc, and then decide? 

But assuming that nobody will know where you actually are living is just naive.  A long stay in hospital (especially if it were followed up with lengthy treatment at "home") would soon make it self-evident as to where Sara's mother was actually living.  It could make a big hole in her mother's capital if she ended up having to pay all the hospital bills herself, which could easily happen if the authorities here did any kind of investigation into her circumstances, should that situation arise.

[Val_2]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

? 

But assuming that nobody will know where you actually are living is just naive.  A long stay in hospital (especially if it were followed up with lengthy treatment at "home") would soon make it self-evident as to where Sara's mother was actually living.  It could make a big hole in her mother's capital if she ended up having to pay all the hospital bills herself, which could easily happen if the authorities here did any kind of investigation into her circumstances, should that situation arise.

[/quote]

 

I have had experience of the UK authorities knowing exactly where,when and how we visited France before we moved here legitimately a long time ago,it was a huge shock and they even had the numbers of the ferry bookings.Everytime you book a ticket to anywhere, that info is passed on and here in France,again everything is noted and also passed on.The only way not to get noticed is by stowing away and never using a bank or service in France.

[Phil & Pat]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

A long stay in hospital (especially if it were followed up with lengthy treatment at "home") would soon make it self-evident as to where Sara's mother was actually living. 

[/quote]

If a bona fide visitor, complete with EHIC/CEAM, is unlucky enough to suffer a severe accident or illness while staying with family in another country and require a "long stay in hospital" would that necessarily change their status from tourist to resident?

Just wondering (with elderly parents).

[Val_2]

Not if they had a return ticket I would have thought, as proof of evidence that they were only visiting.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Phil Pat"][quote user="cooperlola"]

A long stay in hospital (especially if it were followed up with lengthy treatment at "home") would soon make it self-evident as to where Sara's mother was actually living. 

[/quote]

If a bona fide visitor, complete with EHIC/CEAM, is unlucky enough to suffer a severe accident or illness while staying with family in another country and require a "long stay in hospital" would that necessarily change their status from tourist to resident?

Just wondering (with elderly parents).
[/quote]No, I'm sure it would not.  However, there are restrictions on out-patient treatments, and I think I have read somewhere (I'll try to find it again!) that  the patient is normally re-patriated once they are fit enough.  The whole point about the EHIC is that it does cover you for exactly that eventuality. 

However, I was just trying to warn the o/p because if her mother was living with them and - say - she needed visits from nurses, physiotherapy, regular visits to a gp, etc, post op' - then it would become pretty obvious where she was living.