Linguistics

[Gardian]

This is sort of about the French language.

I've often felt that if I could have my time again, Linguistics is the subject that I would have studied.

I remember working in the NW of England and being assured that people could tell which town people were from, I.e. Bolton as opposed to Bury. It staggered me, but had to believe it.

Then, when working in the Black Country, hearing phrases such as "We'm going to the pub tonight".

It must be the same down here, although a lot of what I hear from the real locals is bordering on the unintelligible.

Same for you?

[YCCMB]

Being, as I am, from Bolton, I can assure you that once upon a time (and I left home at 17) I could tell a Bolton accent from a Blackburn, Bury or Burnley accent immediately.

I did a bit of linguistics at University, but nothing that really stuck or gave me any deep insights. In fact, one of the few things that did stick was learning that as a northerner I had a head start in being able to get a good French accent, because where I come from, the vowel sounds are "pure", as compared to the southern parts of the UK, so we have fewer problems with French pronunciation. Hardly a deep insight into the many associated spheres of linguistics, but interesting to me, at least.

I wouldn't know where to start with French, but if you're interested in Language, accent and so on, the British Library did a fantastic piece of research and made some of their work interactive and available online [url]http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/[/url]   - worth a look through if it's the sort of thing that interests you.

[Loiseau]

I was fascinated to learn from an exhibition in the British Library a few years ago that even sign language has different "accents".

Angela

[powerdesal]

Betty,

Your comment about 'pure' vowel sounds was very interesting.

However, being from near Burnley and having an appalling French accent I suspect I am one of those people that missed out on the head start. !!!!!!!

[NormanH]

It must be the same down here, although a lot of what I hear from the real locals is bordering on the unintelligible.

When I first came here French TV used to subtitle people who spoke with a strong southern accent (such as from Béziers [6])

I quickly got used to it in extreme circumstances (an anaesthetist telling me to "Serrez le pwannnngg" for example) and later did some interpreting for a local Notaire whose accent rather than his French made him difficult to understand even for the few English people who understood French.

I can now hear a difference between the Mediterranean and inland  accents, fore example between Béziers and the Ariège. Even between Béziers and Narbonne there is a difference with the Aude having a much more trilled 'r'

I think that in this area a lot of the pronunciation is influenced by Occitan.

The sound one hears in 'lwennng' for 'loin' is much closer to the occitan word luenh then the loin of northern French

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTc0WHy5qMc&html5=1

Devant de ma fenestro i à un auzeloun

touto la nuech chanto, chanto sa chansoun.

Se chanto que chante chanto pa per iou

chanto per ma'mio qu'es da luenh de iou.

Devant de ma fenestro à un amendié

que fa de flour blanco coume de papié.

Se chanto que chante chanto pa per iou

chanto per ma'mio qu'es da luenh de iou.

Aquelos mountanhos que tant autos soun

m'empacihoun de veire mes amour ount soun

Se chanto que chante chanto pa per iou

chanto per ma'mio qu'es da luenh de iou.

Aquellos mountanhos tard s'abaisaran

e mes amourettos se rapproucharan.

Se chanto que chante chanto pa per iou

chanto per ma'mio qu'es da luenh de iou.

see also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTc0WHy5qMc&html5=1

[Judith]

Ah, se canto ... my choir (lezignan based) sings that - almost everyone pronounces it a little differently, depending on where they come form.

You are quite right, though NormanH, the village audois definitely have the occitan in their language.  I decided that was why it didn't always make sense, not just the oignnn sound.  In our current larger village / town, there are differences in the speech from where we were before, but since the border is so close, you do hear several different accents around her (including English, German, Dutch, Spanish ... :)).  Great fun ... sometimes!

And, yes, Gardian, I often wished I'd studied linguistics.  In my neck of the woods, t'other side of t'pennines, they used to say you could tell who came from Tong and not Bradford - basically the same town now! And there are many other examples. 

But I agree the broader vowel sounds do help with French and definitely with German .. mother, said in a broad Yorkshire accent is hardly distinguishable from "mutter" in German.  Just a shame we never had the French  "u" sound in English which seems to be what separates the English from the rest of the world!

[NormanH]

This is a rather amusing 'take' on the sound of foreign accents:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/06/languages-sound-foriegners-smoukahontas_n_4912793.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

[tinabee]

Same for me here in France as well as in the UK.

Being from Chorley and schooled in Bolton, an early shock for me was trying to understand somebody from Wigan. Later, living in London but working on site just outside Glasgow, I had to act as an interpreter between my southern colleagues and our clients North of the border - literally.

Now I do find the older Norman accent (that's Normandy not you NormanH) mostly inaccessible, but the younger generation are much easier to understand. However our first visit to the Languedoc was a real challenge!

[rowland]

When we first started visiting France many years ago we could go on guided tours in Northern France and understand most of what was said but didn't have a clue when we went further south.

Originally from mid-Wales but working in London I met someone who was able to place my home within 6 miles!

No offence to our Scottish neighbours but I used to have to activate the subtitles to watch Programmes like Taggart and Kenny Dalgleish was a total mystery.

It is a fascinating subject and like other people on the forum, one which I would have liked to study.

[YCCMB]

I started young on the French accent problem. My penfriend's mum was from Marseilles... Half my cohort at University spent their year abroad in Montpellier, the rest of us were exiled to the Vosges. When we all got back, we had acquired a motley collection of accents.

Meanwhile, back in Blighty, I shared a student house with two other girls from Bolton, one from Wigan and one from Hexham. The latter, like me, is still married to the person she met at University, and I spent the first year of their relationship acting as interpreter, as her husband is from south London.

Aside from the whole issue of accents, we used to spend many a happy hour as students  (in Bradford, just to add another linguistic dimension) discussing the multitude of different names for bread rolls in our various parts of the country, and wondering why dinner starts being lunch somewhere south of the Watford Gap.

[PaulT]

Brought back memories of being on a residential course in Morpeth with a crowd from Newcastle (I am from down South) and one night, after a bevy or two they translated the Blaydon Races for me.

[Patf]

[quote user="PaulT"] they translated the Blaydon Races for me.[/quote]

Nostalgia [:D]

Another one is The Lambton Worm - Wisht lads haad yer gobs etc.

Geordie is another accent that helps in speaking french. They used to have the gutteral "r" as well (used by the old folks in the Gers.)

[Gardian]

Norman ..........Love your comment about subtitles being used on French TV!

We overheard two people at an adjoining table the other day - it was French and very heavily accented, but not from the south. Goodness knows where from. We wondered about Alsace, because there was a sort-of Germanic hint to it.

A friend is a former pied-noir (as with most, the family moved to the mainland in the early 60's) and he has a local accent, but not quite if you see what I mean.

[YCCMB]

I spent 8 years working with a bunch of Brits, most of whom had perfected their French in West Africa. I use the word "perfected" in its loosest sense, IYSWIM.... One of our company lawyers (Parisian) collared me at the Christmas party and asked me why I seemed to be the only person who didn't speak French with an Ivoirian accent.

[Gardengirl]

[quote user="Patf"][quote user="PaulT"] they translated the Blaydon Races for me.[/quote]

Nostalgia [:D]

Another one is The Lambton Worm - Wisht lads haad yer gobs etc.

Geordie is another accent that helps in speaking french. They used to have the gutteral "r" as well (used by the old folks in the Gers.)

[/quote]

I rather think 'The Lambton Worm' uses the Wearside accent -' 'young Lambton went afishing in the Wear'' (river) and Penshaw Hill was on our usual family walk on pleasant Sundays. The Wearside accent also has useful vowel sounds for speaking French.

My husband is from Sheffield, not a million miles south of us but I had to translate what my father said for at least the first couple of years for him.

I went on a French course in Paris in the sixties and was told by profs that northern accents were usually of great help in speaking French, although not a guarantee. The accent spoken of as being 'best' for French sounds was that of Berwick on Tweed.

Living not far from Gardian, we also find local accents difficult; on the markets etc many locals speak a little more slowly and clearly than normal, but when speaking between themselves it's hard to know what is being said. A French friend  who grew up and worked in Paris has been known to protest that he could be living in a foreign country rather than the Gard, as he can't understand locals, and finds it especially hard on the phone - which makes me feel a little better about phoning companies or shops.  [:)]

[Chancer]

There is an English guy in this region who works at the local museum, I have only seen him a couple of times in the 9 years that I have been here but saw him being interviewed by FR3 and was really impressed, or so I thought by his command of the language, light years ahead of when I had last seen him, he appeared to have left me miles behind which I put down to him working a full time job with French colleagues.

Then I took a group of our eléves on a visit to the museum, he was the guide and I began to see why he seemd so accomplished, it was always the same speech, amusingly he had a really strong Dutch accent picked up from his multi_ligual colleague and mentor and the kids couldnt understand him, I had to translate French with a dutch accent to French with a Ch'ti accent for them [:-))]

I picked up a few tips listening to him, he avoided all problems with masculin or feminin nouns by never speaking in the singular, it was always les trucs .

When it came to question time he could answer the sort of FAQ's with his off pat speeches but when asked were the soldiers allowed to get drunk he had to ask me what the word "ivre" meant in English.

After seeing his great performance on the TV I had phoned and left a message of congratulations in French, I asked him if he had recieved it and he became sheepish, seemingly they could not understand it and didnt know who it was from or what it was about although I had, as always, identified myself.

Maybe if I had spoken with a Dutch accent [:P]

Has anyone seen the Youtube video on the Daily Mail site of the young Finnish girl speaking gibberish in many different languages with a superb accent, she is a natural mimic. All the Finns that I have met when travelling have been great linguists, the girls at least, I didnt pay the guys as much attention!!!

[Judith]

When my sister and I were on a school field trip (in Shropshire, the Long Mynd, but that's not the point of this story), there was only one other person from our neck of the woods with us, and no-one understood when we asked if the tea had "mashed" yet ... they only ever knew that process as brewing.

The fact that it's also a perfectly proper term for the act of pouring hot or boiling water onto solids (think making beer in mash tuns, fellahs!) seemed to have escaped everyone's attention, and being sisters, we were accused of making it up.  Fortunately our schoolmate came to our rescue and assured the others we hadn't made it up. 

And that was in a supposedly well educated cohort of the population. 

[Gardengirl]

But of course you mash tea! Doesn't seem the same with teabags!

[NormanH]

Has anyone seen the Youtube video on the Daily Mail site of the young

Finnish girl speaking gibberish in many different languages with a

superb accent, she is a natural mimic. All the Finns that I have met

when travelling have been great linguists, the girls at least, I didnt

pay the guys as much attention!!!

I Posted a link to it above !!!!!!![:(]

[PaulT]

'Allo Allo is being shown on BBC2 in the afternoons and I always think that the British man who is undercover as a French policeman is a wonderful invention using English but in such a way as to intimate what mispronunciation in French would sound like.

[KathyF]

[quote user="Judith"] But I agree the broader vowel sounds do help with French and definitely with German .. mother, said in a broad Yorkshire accent is hardly distinguishable from "mutter" in German.  Just a shame we never had the French  "u" sound in English which seems to be what separates the English from the rest of the world!
[/quote]

That's exactly what my German teacher used to tell us. I'm from Darwen (just over the moor from Betty in Bolton [:)]) and she was a Geordie. She had fun showing us how much some words in the Geordie dialect resemble German  (particularly Low German) and said that when she went to Hamburg, where the local dialect is Low German, people could understand something of what she said when she talked Geordie.

As for the French "u" sound, I found that learning German helped here too, as the German "ü" sound gave us double the practice. [:D]

[NormanH]

The sound I will never master in French is the letter 'r' after a vowel as in porte.

We southerners just elongate the 'o' to 'oar' and never sound the 'r' at all.

That's one where the Welsh and Scots have an advantage..

[Patf]

It's not just the individual letter sounds, but also the musical elements, rhythm, emphasis, expression.

[Judith]

[quote user="NormanH"]The sound I will never master in French is the letter 'r' after a vowel as in porte.

We southerners just elongate the 'o' to 'oar' and never sound the 'r' at all.

That's one where the Welsh and Scots have an advantage..

[/quote]

Well since I can't even say my "r's" properly, even in English, you can image what fun I have trying to get the French to distinguish between my "rue" and "rouge".  My best French friends are always pulling my leg about it - and when I tried to say " roses rouges" in a short talk (in French) about St Valentin recently - well, they just would not let me forget it!  At least I can manage "pu" OK, as long as I concentrate!

[Judith]

[quote user="Patf"]It's not just the individual letter sounds, but also the musical elements, rhythm, emphasis, expression.

[/quote]

Agreed.  And also the order of words - my French teacher keeps saying - put the "time" at the beginning .. and not at the end, as they English do - and you immediately sound more French.  It took me some time to remember to put the adverb in the correct French place, but it is now <almost> automatic.