Oops

[alittlebitfrench]

How do you teach 'J'y vais' Betty. Do you teach it ?

It such and important expression (like many) used every hour of the day. It takes just 10 seconds to learn.

Everyday French is mostly expressions and slang with some grammar chucked in.

"Can someone go to the shops and buy me some Onions " ?

J'y vais = I will go and do it

"Is that someone at the door"?

J'y vais = I will go and have a look.

An easy phrase to add emotion.....

"I thought you were going to buy me some onions"?

(shrug shoulders) "geeeeee vais" (pointlessly wave car keys)........."bordel"......(slam door) = I am off to buy them now for F sake..

[NormanH]

Et je m'en vais

Au vent mauvais

Qui m'emporte

Deçà, delà,

Pareil à la

Feuille morte.

[Gardengirl]

Et je pleure.

[alittlebitfrench]

Des jours anciens

[YCCMB]

"How" do I teach it? Like I devote whole lessons to it?

The same way I teach "bof!" Or how to use "Merci"as a refusal (with hand signals).

However, as I've already pointed out (several times, now, I think) in this thread, I teach all this stuff according to the requirements of the individual student.

For example you, as a student, clearly thrive on just being given a phrase or an expression and a load of examples of where and how to use it, irrespective of anything else. It doesn't bother you at all that there's an "Y" in the middle of "j'y vais" which has a place, and a reason. Not everyone, however, learns (or, more importantly, wants to learn) in the way that you do.

Incidentally....your translations of "J'y vais" above, whilst they translate the sentiment, don't translate the reality of the expression or the situation.

I will go (to the supermarket) and get your onions - the "y" in this sentence saves the speaker having to repeat the bit about the supermarket.

I will go (to the door) and see who is there - the "y" saves the speaker having to repeat the bit about the door.

And, whilst this may be useless or irrelevant to you (which I can respect and understand) I have to be ready, according to the requirements of any particular student, to explain how "y" works.

Sometimes, in order to do that, I will have to spend a whole lesson just talking about "y". Usually with "en", in case you're interested.

I've managed to miss out ANY reference to grammatical terms there, and parts of speech, just to avoid the flak.?

[alittlebitfrench]

I was just interested. Most people who come to France are retirees and a persons ability to learn a language diminishes with age. What do you teach a sixty year old wanting to move to France ?

I don't learn. I absorb. Quoi. It is much easier with young children as they use such simple French with a lot of slang.

[alittlebitfrench]

I am fed = j' en ai marre (the dreaded en)

oooooh that is to difficult to understand and pronounce.

No problem

I am fed up = johnny marr

Bingo !!!! No need to panic on the streets of London.

I am going to open school LOL

[YCCMB]

I find that it depends very much on the sixty-year-old!

Many of them are fortunate in that they studied "O" (or even sometimes "A") level French, and have a good base of grammar, which comes back to them with a bit of effort. Some struggle. A lot. However, the ones that struggle the most still tend to want more from their French lessons than just a verbal phrase book of useful sentences like "J'y vais"

However, as I point out to ALL my students ( and these days, the vast majority work for international companies, and need French for work), I can't make them learn French because sending someone for French lessons, or taking yourself to a French class is not like taking your car to a garage, where it comes back "fixed". Nobody can learn a language without putting in a certain amount of effort. I've been learning French for 44 years. I'll never be truly bilingual, but then again, I can earn a crust through my ability to teach, translate and interpret French, and that'll do.

My oldest student to date was 83.

[YCCMB]

The thing that you seem to find impossible to grasp, albf, is that, whilst your method works for you, one size does not fit all.

When someone asks you about WHY you say "J'en ai marre" what does the "en" mean, why does it go there and not at the end of the sentence, as it logically would in English, and when they won't be fobbed off with "it just DOES, OK?" What would you tell them? And, trust me on this "Look, it doesn't matter, just say it" is generally not well received as a reply.

[alittlebitfrench]

I do very much understand that 'one size does not fit all' when it comes to teaching.

I was indeed the person you describe. I would have to know why/understand what 'en' or 'y' meant and why they were there and getting annoyed by not understanding. With hindsight I feel now that I wasted a lot of time and over complicated the learning process by being too rigid in my need to learn French.

Only really after time do things like 'en' of 'y' fall into place. They have to click in context for you to get it. I am not sure I really needed to know.

A good one. I said to my daughter "where are you going"?. She said in French in a stroppy way "I am going to my bedroom...quoi". I asked what does 'quoi' mean at the end of that sentence. She said it means 'you have a problem/you have a problem with that. LOL

You here 'quoi' being used so freely in the middle of a conversation on daily basis.

How do you teach that ?

[Chancer]

Yes Betty, these things were never taught to me, I just picked them up but unlike ALBF I had studied hard and learned what grammar I could and that was the key to my future Learning, I could here unknown things like "y" and "en" and rather than just guessing "OK I'll say that in XYZ circumstances" I was able to deconstruct the sentence and work out exactly the meaning and how it should be used by all the conjugaisons, dont know the grammatical term (my weak pint) but I mean, tu, vous, ils/elles etc.

For me the "y" in J'y vais is meaningless without what has been said just before, the "Y" means "there", "I will go! (there)" I cannot see how or why it would ever be used to say "I'm leaving" but as I dun used it for that then maybe it does or maybe she misused it in the same way that ALBF probably misuses words and I know that I have many many times.

The real problem is around me probably only two people in 10 years have been kind enough to correct me when I speak like a dick-head and I include my close friends in that, I am however very perceptive and when speaking I Watch carefully the facial reactions and body language of the person listening, thats how i know when I need to either recompose a sentence for the next time or not use it in that context

[alittlebitfrench]

Chancer said

"cannot see how or why it would ever be used to say "I'm leaving"

I think you are right but sometimes people say it to themselves when leaving.

They are rushing (as usual in France) around looking for something they are missing (keys) and then say to themselves...."bon.....J'y vais"

Then you ask 'tu vas où' ?

[YCCMB]

But that's only half the battle, unless you're only ever going to talk about yourself.

On y va?

Drop the Je.

M'en vais

Why can you use J'y vais and Je m'en vais (or on y va and on s'en va) to mean the same thing..when in principle they don't?

Write Je ne sais pas

Hear Shay pas

Who uses "ne" these days?

Anyone can skate over the surface, but until you meet enough people who say "Yes, but WHY?" I don't think you really get it.

Michel Thomas has made a fortune helping people to learn French, and I've earned a few quid explaining why I'd like to kill him, or why I would if he wasn't already dead.

[alittlebitfrench]

On y va.....

Do you learn or acquire French ?

You can't go through a whole day without saying 'on y va' Even to yourself.

Betty, Je me demandais (there is that 'was' again Chancer) do you teach French like English is taught as a foreign language. You know in a CELTA way or in a more traditional way.

[idun]

I hardly say j'y vais, don't need to usually. If the door bell goes I would probably say 'c'est moi' if I was going to answer it. Whether this is right or wrong, no idea. Friends are used to me. Family is used to me.

 On y va, I say quite  frequently.

The 'quoi' is no different to me, as to someone saying 'like' or 'you know' OR BOTH............... after everything they say....... and that drives me bloody mad.

There is no reason sometimes for the way people speak, they just do.

I have given this some thought, and as all I ever really need to do is talk. I can talk about anything, to anyone in french, I just can. Whether it be in person or on the phone. My french is as it is, and I am not going to get hung up about my mangling verbs and phrases in general, or my accent. Maybe that is a take me or leave me attitude, but usually people take me as I am and find my accent adorable!......... it isn't, believe me it is NOT!!!!!!

Chancer I couldn't have gone down the route you have taken, in needing to know how it all works, it was not for me as I have some sort of blindness to how it all 'works', but well done if it works for you.

[Chancer]

Its not really the route for me, I'll explain, in Quito I did an intensive course in Spanish, no written work, we were taught and learnt as babies do, all the teaching aids were for toddlers, it was superb, I learned so much in such a short space of time, it really was for me because of my lack of grammar knowledge.

 

however I now know that will only take you so far, admittedly in lightning time and with superb results, its also painless just like Learning as a child should be. I did an initial 2 week intensive course of private tuition with a newly qualified French native teacher that i met on the great barrier reef, she had some progressive teaching methods but insisted on grounding in grammar, all of my homeworks were verb conjugaisons of the main verbs, the regular verb groups and also the irregular ones.

 

Then I had 18 months of lessons with a person local to me, a French native English teacher at the lycée I went on to work at, very very traditional, all written exercises, studying grammar and the tenses never any listening or aural (or is it oral) work, it was a very hard slog, I didnt enjoy it and I didnt appreciate it, thats why many give up but I didnt, she eventually gave up on me.

 

The majority of the progress I have made in the language has been since the lessons stopped and it all really self taught ever since, I Watch TV I read books and magazines, I have conversations but I am able to relate everything back to the formal Learning, hard and painfull that it was it has really been the key to me being able to master the language (that sounds to boastfull) and continue to improve, without it I would have stuck at a certain level, not been able to read and write with confidence, saying things like j'y vais without understanding, that said how do you explain what "je vous en prie" means? Thats a real good example of where rote Learning is the best.

 

Of all the tenses that I have learnt and use now confidently only the present and the passé composé did I really understand when I had the formal Learning, sure I learnt several others but didn't "get them" and hence would not use them, I would not really be sure if I understood what someone was saying to me when speaking in them, then with further study on my own and exposure, one by one they clicked but only by my constantly asking myself the "why" and mentally exercising, since then I have gone on to learn and be proficient in several other tenses all on my own,  this was only possible because of the hard slog of formal Learning and even now I still dont know what most grammatical phrases are.

 

I have met people early on that seemed to be really proficient in French, they had already been here 2 décades like ALBF, and even now they are probably more natural speaking in French than I but I am able to see all the coping stratégies that they use and indeed I learn from them, speaking to their children who were born and educated in French they tell me that their mothers (for I'm afraid once again its only the women that make the effort) can not actually read or write in French and are wholly dependant on their children and always will be.

[idun]

Je vous en prie........ bit like prego or bitteschoen.........

Set phrases that don't need analysis, they just are, what they are. They don't need dissecting.

Honestly,  I feel like my head is being caved in and everything is turning to stodge with all this talk of grammar. I really do not get it at all.

I know that it is ESSENTIAL to the french that they 'know' the inside outs of french grammar....... so what would the child idun have been like in a french school???? Dumped in a SECPA and lost without trace..... because I have mild dyslexia too. And being bright enough is not a reason for the Education Nationale to NOT treat someone like they are useless, they happily do that.

[alittlebitfrench]

Idun said ...

"I know that it is ESSENTIAL to the french that they 'know' the inside outs of french grammar......."

But they don't. That is the point. So why do expats wising to learn french try.

There some phrases that you just have to learn innit.

je m'en fous

[idun]

Re illiterate mothers.

I get by, I would never ever have put on my children like that.  My written french is not good, but I get by. As I have said before, I had a friend who would check what I had written and find it absolutely fine. So I am as good or is that bad as some of the french population.

What are these people playing at. One's children go to school, we get reports and have to sign cahiers. It is a form of neglect IMO to remain so ignorant.

[idun]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]Idun said ...

"I know that it is ESSENTIAL to the french that they 'know' the inside outs of french grammar......."

But they don't. That is the point. So why do expats wising to learn french try.

There some phrases that you just have to learn innit.

je m'en fous[/quote]

In my experience, all the french people I know not only need their kids to learn the nuances of grammar from CP and often before, but will try and explain some things to me using all the terms that those who 'know' use.

Maybe it was different where I lived in France, but that is how it was...... even my friend whose written french is pretty much on a par with mine, still was into her french grammar.

[alittlebitfrench]

Sorry, that was not the point I was trying to make.

My OH is very very highly educated and as close you can get to being Bilingual. One of those annoying people who are just born clever.

If I ask the question 'What does the 'y' mean in J'y vais...they would fumble around for a minute or two and then just basically say because that is the way it is. Just learn the context of the phrase and get on with life.

[NormanH]

I would say 'j'y vais' meaning 'I'll go' if there was a ring at the door, or someone said that something had to be collected.

I would say 'je m'en vais' oy 'je file' or more vulgar 'je me casse' if I wanted to say I am going/leaving.

That's ok if you want to flourish a few French expressions in the bar or market place but if you need to write it for your job you might need a bit more, and grammar can be a shorthand way of making rapid progress.

[:@]

It helps to get the tricky endings right in a construction such as they (some girls) went...(since you are talking about going)

Elles s'en sont allées, or avoid thinking that 'ais' indicates the past in je m'en irais'

[Judith]

"Michel Thomas has made a fortune helping people to learn French, and

I've earned a few quid explaining why I'd like to kill him, or why I

would if he wasn't already dead."

Betty, I totally agree. I listened to the starter tapes from him ... and gave up.  Not my learning style at all ... hence my previous post! I need the grammar to be able to construct and understand what I am learning, partly because the same sound in French can mean so many different things!

[NormanH]

A good example of that is Samuel Beckett explaining that he wrote in French so as not to be too easily tempted into English cliché.

He had he said '“le besoin d’être mal armé” the need to be ill-equipped

But of course that also sounds like "le besoin d'être Mallarmé"

the French symbolist poet who, like Beckett, was obsessed with the

richness of language, its depths, its ambiguities and its limitations.

[mint]

[quote user="NormanH"]I would say 'j'y vais' meaning 'I'll go' if there was a ring at the door, or someone said that something had to be collected.

I would say 'je m'en vais' oy 'je file' or more vulgar 'je me casse' if I wanted to say I am going/leaving.

[/quote]

Ah, OK, understood but, to be honest, je me sauve!