Oops

[YCCMB]

Sometimes, learning by hearing (or what you think you hear) can be very dangerous...as I know to my cost. Especially when trying to explain to a bunch of Polish builders that the...er..."vocabulary" that they've been taught on site by their British counterparts is a cruel joke and not mainstream, acceptable English.

Then, there's a good friend of mine, who correctly picked up, in context and from listening to native French speakers, that it's good to respond to "Merci" with "y a pas de quoi". So far, so good. But her ear actually thought it heard "n'importe quoi" and she spent a good year wondering why her politeness was met with dirty looks.

[idun]

Believe me that my conjugaisons are all over the place. I think a long time ago I used to guess, and then my guesses, unless I was pulled up about them, just ended up part of the colourful way I speak french.[Www] Mustn't forget my english accent in that mix......

ALBF, you ask what you would need all this stuff for, well, for me it would be lovely if I could just write good french. And I know how the intello class system works, I mean 'good' french too.

Too old now to get it all, and when I was young, it may have well been sanscrit......... don't get how english grammar works either.

[idun]

But Betty, it is 'langue 'age' and not ecrivage.......

I know a few french people who can read and write english far better than me, and english people who can do the same with french. However, they are poor at speaking...... hesitant.......and what they may say may be grammatically 'pure'....... but they are poor communicators when in their company. The french ones prefer me to speak my iffy french to them, than converse with me in english......... funny old life sometimes[;-)]

This is all very complicated. Good job we don't have to teach our children to read and write before they learn to speak![:D]

[YCCMB]

I know, Idun, but language learning is composed of four elements: reading, writing, speaking and listening. You can't really learn a language by avoiding some of the elements.

Even if it's your native language, you will, of course, speak fluently but if you can't read and write, you're stuffed.

Learning any language, it's true that reading and listening are often easier for most than speaking and writing, but you've got to give all four a bash at some point or you are missing important bits of the jigsaw.

Nobody (well, not me, anyway) is saying that there's only one way of learning language. Everyone needs to find what works best for them. If conventional methods aren't for you, but something else does work, that's great. That doesn't mean that the conventional methods are somehow wrong, however.

In school, you get one teacher and one method, generally, and the system can't provide the flexibility to tailor learning to the needs of each individual. As an adult learner, you have more scope to work at learning in a way that helps you, and that's fantastic.

I work with adult learners who absolutely insist on understanding grammar, and at the other end of the spectrum, with those who have zero grasp of grammar and want to learn by doing, and it's my job to accommodate that.

Just because I have used a few grammatical terms here and there in my previous posts isn't important. Some people don't understand them, some do. Just like when I read threads on here about how big a satellite dish you need to get UK TV. Some people riddle their posts with highly technical details about how many times and at what altitude the Astra satellite is orbiting the Earth, others just want to get straight to "buy a dish this big and point it in that direction" or even " pay a bloke to fit it for you" ( the language equivalent of "pay a translator" maybe).

[idun]

Your list made me smile, as my way of learning french was the other way round, firstly there was the listening, then speaking, reading and then writing. And that is how it went.

I have never had to pay a translator, but I suppose if push had come to shove I may have had to..... I usually managed a ma facon!

I remember in primary school being taught about verbs and adjectives and nouns and my mind wandering and feeling like it was all in a fog before me. I still remember the very basics, a verb is a doing word, an adjective is a description and noun the name of something. Still couldn't find an ad-verb in a sentence......... please, please, no one post an example, it'll do no good, because tomorrow I still won't be able to.

[Loiseau]

"How, when and where the adverbs tell,

As Quickly, Slowly, Here, Now, Well."

or so We were told at school, idun! ?

Angela

[YCCMB]

No right or wrong way round, Idun, listening usually does come before speaking,many reading before writing. You can't say something in another language unless you hear it first, and you can't write something till you've read it.

One particular testing method used a lot in industry and business in France (strangely) and Japan(equally strangely) to test the language ability of employees among other things, ONLY tests listening and reading, on the basis that if you can listen and read, you can speak and write. I don't agree with that, but it exists!

[mint]

I wasn't joining in this thread because I'd have too much to say and put everyone else off!

However, I am bursting to tell you all something!!![:D]

I find the BEST way to increase vocabulary is to read and read and read, from different sources, books, journals, etc.

Then note the words you don't understand or those that you think you'd like to use in future, make a list to help fading memory, use any new words learnt and remembered ASAP.  If necessary, ask the person you are trying the new word on whether you have the sense of the word right.

One proviso, if it's a "literary" sort of a word, make sure you are asking an educated "literary" sort of a person.

Have I added to the thread in a positive way?[8-)]  That is, I don't know if this would work for other people but it works a treat for me[:D]

[idun]

I had read what you wrote about listening being 'dangerous' Betty, and I have had some hilarious moments with not hearing properly........ and that is because I have not got the ear for language either.

This is what  I used to say when I couldn't understand, when I first got to France 'je pompompom', because that is what I heard, and that with my 'young' ears.

To anyone who is struggling, just get stuck in and speak, you'll make mistakes no matter how much you study the language, and just treat these faux pas with good humour....! Re writing, well, if you are good at studying languages, then get stuck in with that too......

[Judith]

Fortunately I not only learnt English grammar, I was also fortunate to study French at A level and beyond - but this does not mean that speaking French, or indeed understanding spoken French was very easy for me once I arrived here.  (Certainly in this area, as anyone around here would attest, it sometimes feels hardly like French at all!)

I sometimes make silly mistakes (still) in my written French though that is not a surprise such a complicated language it is, and I have forgotten much that I once knew at a high level.  I can read French well enough, though sadly don't bother all that much, French novels annoy me and non-fiction can be boring ... but I write and read French emails nearly every day.  I spent some time in my first job having to translate technical articles from French and German, though I was not employed as a translator !

But in spite of all that ... I still struggle to speak the language easily ... though it did help me particularly, once I realised that it didn't matter how much effort I put into getting my spoken French correct, I always made mistakes - and that though I was always complimented on how well I spoke French, everyone knew I was not French.

After which, I decided not to worry about getting it right ... but just talk ... which finally seems to have worked (though a glass of wine does help!!).

So I agree with Idun, talk, get it wrong, you will either be nicely corrected, which means you can repeat it and try to incorporate it the next time you need to say that phrase, or they will understand what you are trying to say and carry on ...

 

Incidentally, Betty, I have found some of your tips on this thread most useful, and I agree, we all learn in different ways .. for example I am unable to learn a language by just listening (I've tried with audio tapes for various languages) and have now come to the conclusion that I learn very much as I was once taught, via the grammar!

 

[Chancer]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]I agree..... 'ais' (or the pronunciation of) at the end of a verb means 'was'...in simplistic terms. [/quote]

 

N'importe quoi! You dont really believe that do you? [:'(]

 

What on earth must you think people are saying whenthey use the imparfait and the futur conditionnel? It could explain a lot though..................

 

So now you have got me wondering, what is it that you think j'y vais means and when would you use it?

[alittlebitfrench]

Chancer you are saying things/words like 'imparfait' and the 'futur conditionnel'. Sentences that don't make sense to people like me.

I could not give a shît......or should I say.. 'je m'en fou' (is that spelt right ??)

It is survival French...you numpty.

What is numpty in French ?

[Pommier]

Norman, thanks for your tip about passe compose - that will stick in my mind!

Betty, I'll do as you suggest and concentrate on conjugating the main verbs first.

I don't do too bad in conversation, but the trouble is that although we've been living here for 13 years, there's never been time (or maybe inclination as there's always time if you make it) to go to classes, so I've learnt some sort of bodged together version of French rather than the proper thing!

[YCCMB]

Best of luck to ck, Pommier: I'm sure you'll soon be surprised by how much you do already know!

[idun]

Chancer said 'j'y vais'.

If I say it, it means 'I'm off'. I have never looked this up, it is just what it seems to mean to me.

And IF it doesn't mean that, then I will have gone, and no one can correct me anyway.

And on y va, is let's go, meaning some or all of us go, doesn't it.

ALBF, my son told me not to say je m'en fou...... apparently ca m'est egale is far more polite and elegant....... kids eh!!

[Chancer]

Je m'en vais for "I'm off" or if you pick up French from ignorant people as I do then je me casse/je me barre, thankfully I have people that care enough about how i am percieved to correct me.

 

Je m'en fou(e) according to the occasion is OK, je m'en foute is vulgar, je m'en fiche is a good way of saying it in a manner similar to substituting punaise for the other P word.

 

I want to know from ALBF what he thinks he is saying when he says j'y vais because if he thinks that all words ending with an "ai" sound, mean "was" then he must have some superb survival skills.

 

ai, ais, aient, tais, tait, taient, rai, rais, and not forgetting é, - all terminaisons pronounced exactly the same AFAIK with very very different meanings

 

Editted, I know to a French persons ears or from their mouth é is very different to ai but I can no more hear the difference than can I say the difference

[YCCMB]

Chamcer, out of curiosity, where are you from in the UK originally, or at least what accent do you have in English, would you say?

[YCCMB]

By the way, I meant to say....there's an app for that!

If you have an iPhone or iPad ( no idea if there's an Andriod version) there's an app called "Utter French" which is £2.99 from the UK App Store, or this website

http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/pronunciation/french_eu_vowels.shtml

I'm not putting them forward as the answer to all ills, but if anyone is struggling with pronunciation (and willing to persevere!) they might be worth a punt.

[alittlebitfrench]

j'y vais

What does 'j'y vais' mean in English ?

I hope I spelt it right. LOL.

[Chancer]

Crawley Betty.

 

My mother tried her hardest to make me speak correctly, I dont know if I have an accent or what accent it is other than English.

 

Whay do you ask, what is your theory?

 

I here some people really hampered by their strong London accents, to me they make no attempt to pronounce French words like the French, but then for all I know it may be said of me, I know that i try though.

[YCCMB]

Just that my linguistics tutor always told us, and it does make good sense, that northerners have a better chance when it comes to nailing a French accent, simply because the vowel sounds we (for I am a northerner!) use in our accent are "pure" sounds, and more akin to those used in French. Also, when we do make those sounds, daft as it may seem, the way we hold our mouths, the muscles we use and the placement of the tongue within the mouth are closer to what's required for French. Getting those muscles, etc., to work in such an alien way is the root of the problem. To do it well, if you start from the southern accent, is hard work.

You'll know, from what you've said on here, how much effort and physical discomfort is involved in training other muscles in your body, and if you are really working at French pronunciation, you'll know when it's working, because you will literally get faceache! ?

[YCCMB]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]j'y vais

What does 'j'y vais' mean in English ?

I hope I spelt it right. LOL.[/quote]

J'y vais is a bit of a nonsense really, 'cos the "y" is superfluous in many ways, unless you're going to explain where you mean by "y"... But most of the time nobody does, 'cos it's just an expression. In English, "I'm off" is equally bizarre (off where? off what?)

[Gardengirl]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Just that my linguistics tutor always told us, and it does make good sense, that northerners have a better chance when it comes to nailing a French accent, simply because the vowel sounds we (for I am a northerner!) use in our accent are "pure" sounds, and more akin to those used in French. Also, when we do make those sounds, daft as it may seem, the way we hold our mouths, the muscles we use and the placement of the tongue within the mouth are closer to what's required for French. Getting those muscles, etc., to work in such an alien way is the root of the problem. To do it well, if you start from the southern accent, is hard work.

You'll know, from what you've said on here, how much effort and physical discomfort is involved in training other muscles in your body, and if you are really working at French pronunciation, you'll know when it's working, because you will literally get faceache! ?[/quote]

I've also always been told that northerners are usually more able to make French sounds due to the sounds they make in English. On a course I was on in Paris many years ago, the prof in charge of us at the British Institute assured us that this was so, although a couple of southerners were the best in the group. Those of us from the north-east did pretty well. He reckoned that the chap from Berwick on Tweed had the best accent.

[Patf]

A bit like "vatong" as my friend says when chasing a dog away .

I agree about the northern accent, and in Northumberland there's the gutteral "r" too, very common in the Gers among older people.

ps I know it's really "va t'en."

[idun]

Well I am well and truly a northerner and I can't make sounds like french people do. My husband can though, but he speaks very good french.

When I can say 'rust' in french, I'll know that I've mastered french, at least the accent bit of it[Www]