Disciplining children

[SaligoBay]

I'm used to seeing children getting smacked and yelled at in public, but today was a little bit more distressing....

....young Elodie, 11, was at a birthday party, and her grandparents turned up to collect her earlier than she wanted, so she got into the car in a bit of a sulk.   She said "thank you" when told to to the mum who'd run the party, although still huffily.  In my head I was thinking "uh-oh, she's going to be in trouble when she gets home", but I didn't expect what happened next.

Grandfather lost the head, yelled "Arrete! et sors de la voiture!".   When she didn't move, he got out, opened the back door on the other side of where she was, reached in and dragged her out bodily, dumped her roughly on the road, and drove off, leaving her sprawled there.

The other mums seemed a bit taken aback, BUT, listen to this, NOT at the behaviour of the grandfather.  I couldn't believe my ears at the discussion afterwards, how dare Elodie have a sulk like that, children just think they have to have everything they want etc etc etc.   This isn't a child known to be difficult or anything, so it wasn't even that.  It was just a very minor boude, the kind that normal children have!

I guess it's just the other side of "French children are so polite".  Parents mete out some shocking punishments!   

Anyway, it saddened me a bit, and prompted my son to comment that some people treat their children like they treat their dogs (there are a few sadly neglected dogs in the neighbourhood!).

I'll get over it, and I'm sure Elodie will too. 

[Tresco]

 

It's just wrong to treat children this way, and the really horrible thing for me, personally, is that even now I have trouble challenging such outrageous behaviour. The last time I tried, on a bus in England, despite many approving grunts from fellow passengers at the intervention I tried to make, I was threatened, and nearly got beaten up myself, and the child still got belted, repeatedly.

I've since found it really difficult to deal with situations like the one you describe, especially where friends or acquaintances are concerned, do other people have the same problem?

[Patf]

Tresco - if you try to intervene while the angry parent is still fuming you can be sure they'll turn on you instead. If you know the people you could try saying something when they've calmed down. Of course if the child is being really harmed physically that's a different matter. I don't know if I would be brave enough to intervene.  The right of a parent to physically chastise a child is a sore point in the uk, from a legal point of view. What's the position in France? Pat.

[Teamedup]

Poor bairn, at leat they didn't take one of those little mulit thronged whip things to  her, that, I was assured when I first got here was how Le Papy ou La Mamie punish unruly petits enfants. They still sell them in the shops on the pet counters, although I've never seen them used on animal or child.

[Deby]

I think that was outrageous - I would have had a very difficult time seeing that and saying nothing and I know I should butt out!  I probably would have gone to the distressed child and gave her a cuddle! I am sure my neighbours would not have been happy. 

My children are 'spirited' and I always struggle with the dichotemy of their dual lives.  I try to get a balance, english friends tell me how wonderfully well-behaved they are and french friends sometimes tell me I am very patient and acquaitancies give me sorrow-ful looks.  Are my children happy 'yes' and we are happy with them.

Deby

[Val_2]

British people on moving to France and experiencing french education will often be upset and angry by what goes on which is considered normal here. I have seen teachers hit, not smack children and a gendarme too in public where a youth was cheeky to him. There may be laws here about hitting the children,but you cannot tell a french national how he/she treats their child,they are a law unto themselves. Another thing british newcomers don't realise is how much parents are responsible when their kids misbehave and cause damage,use racist words or swear at teachers or anyone else in public. Parents will be made to pay for damage or have to appear at the gendarmerie or even a tribunal if complaints are made,so its no wonder some families keep a strong rule of discipline because of the shame against others. My son went on a school visit to Spain two years ago and some of the kids got drunk and hospitalised. The day the group arrived back, all the parents of the kids involved were made to wait with the director ready for the bus to arrive and then the punishments were dealt out by the school. Another case of broken fire alarms resulted in the school complaining to the gendarmerie who then called the parents in to sort out paying for the damage between them. I bet this never happens in the UK and that is where there is such a culture difference.

[Deby]

Hi Val 2

Take your point to a certain degree.  But wouldnt it be lovely (ideal world) if we could meet somewhere in the middle.

Deby

[Georgina]

I saw a very distressing sight in Benodet when a German man obviously annoyed that his four year old had pushed the 2 year old off the see saw, but I did not expect this either,  He kicked her several times on the playground floor.  I was very upset and my husband stopped me intervening but what I could not believe was that no one else even looked at him.  I stared him out totally and stood nearby hoping to shame him into stopping. I felt totally useless and very upset, even now, thinking of it. I also wanted to protect my children from seeing such a thing.  I felt useless.

 

Georgina

[Russethouse]

Last Christmas I saw a strapping woman, wack a 3- 4 year old round the head so hard I am amazed his little neck didn't snap, this in a crowded Tescos.

Lots of people looked, tutted and then looked away while she berated this child. I came home livid with her and angry with myself for not having the courage to say something.

[SaligoBay]

You're right, Val2.   I've been through the cultural frisson caused by teachers who spend their time screaming and yelling and tearing pages out of cahiers when work isn't done properly.

You get used to it tho, and the principale's speech on the first day at collège for the Sixièmes was really quite amusing.  Did he talk of a positive atmosphere where children would be encouraged to become fully-rounded individuals etc?  Mais non!!   Lots of talk of behaviour and punishment, with the highlight being "they have to suffer now so that they'll appreciate happiness later".

A picture of Ian Paisley came into my head.  

[Tresco]

SB, I can't remember seeing children smacked or screamed at in public here in France, but then I'm not on public transport every day, or in public much for that matter, so I don't doubt your, or other contributors experiences.

When you originally posted this I was thinking on the lines of 'how would I deal with this in (poor) French. Spent quite a lot of time stewing over it in fact. It then occurred to me that in the UK, threats and a stream of abuse is the worst thing thats happened to me, and on every single ocasion the adults attention has been turned away from the child. So, once the original comment eg 'please stop hitting and swearing at that child', has been made, the desired result (from my point of view) is achieved.

The most dramatic example - and cutting a very long story short, after about six months of ineffectual attempts to intervene, and then much hand wringing I phoned the NSPCC to report systematic physical abuse directed at a ten year old from what seemed to be his whole family. The NSPCC wouldn't listen unless I gave my personal details. I put the phone down, and thought about it. I phoned back and identified myself, three days later I had half the family screaming at me on the doorstep. The boy was never allowed to come to my house again. When he was 15 he told my son he had hated me at the time, but that the battering stopped, immediately, including that of his younger sister, which I had been unaware of as she was below school age.

Whether I would be able to manage such a call here in France, and the consequences? Well I dread having to find out the hard way.

 

 

[Iceni]

Someone will no doubt correct my misquote but

"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing."

John

[Kazanton]

I will always step in if I see a child being unduly chastened or berated in public, especially if physical violence occurs. But, being Californian, I don't have the British Reserve.

This has gotten me into verbal fights, it has made people look at me oddly (so what? Do I care if I'm not on their Christmas card list?) it has gotten me fired from a job (a woman was hitting her child with a large wooden spoon, I went over told her to stop, she told me to do things to myself that were physically impossible unless I was androgenous, so I took the spoon away from her. I was later informed that it was not store policy to intervene in the public's personal affairs. Even when I pointed out she hadn't actually yet bought the spoon...)

Do I give a fig leaf? No. I will continue to get in trouble with folk, I will continue to be disliked by some, I will continue to be that Shocking American who says 'No.'

But I have no regrets and I can sleep at night knowing at least I've done something, however ineffective, I've stood up to the bully on behalf of the child.

[Georgina]

[quote]I will always step in if I see a child being unduly chastened or berated in public, especially if physical violence occurs. But, being Californian, I don't have the British Reserve. This has gotten m...[/quote]

Yes, and I have done that, been there. However, when I am with the children it is very difficult to assess what is the best thing to do as the last time I confronted someone in front of my children, I was bashed around the head. She was prosecuted later but what cost to my children? So, if you can get the support of others first, then there is no problem but like I said, they look the other way. The point is, to what extent do they look the other way in France, compared to England? That said, I would not recommend confronting them when you have children there, confronting an obviously out of control person is very risky and should not be done alone. 

Georgina

[Mpprh]

Hi

I still don't understand ...............

Why do parents take their children to the supermarket so that they can hit them in the queue for the checkout ?

Peter

[Jirac18]

Discipline is one thing and ABUSE is another.

Discipline does not have to be physical just the knowing that there is a repercussion to every action positive or negative. It's about teaching self respect and respect for others. By and large when these people resort to physical abuse of their children in public let alone in private they have completely lost control. It is their anger at having no control that leads them to lash out at what they perceive to be the problem.

The child is not the problem, their behaviour is symptomatic of their surroundings.

If I ever see such abuse of a child or an adult it is my duty and that of every other decent human being to do something about it. Think before acting, but always always act. Otherwise there comes a point when there is no social stigma to anti social and abusive behaviour.

I have been assaulted a number of times intervening in fights in the UK, once quite severely, but I could not walk away! I'd do the same again. That said I understand not everyone may be physically capable of immediate intervention. Gladly I am sufficiently able to defend myself and others.

A very close friend of mine was murdered at the hands of thugs while he visited a cash point in Plymouth a few years ago - HOW MANY PEOPLE STOOD AND WATCHED. A lot is the answer. Perhaps if they had not then he may still be alive and his then eighteen month old daughter would still have some one to call "daddy".

As you can tell I am somewhat emotional on this subject. Abused children grow up to be abusers.

So like I said before Discipline is one thing, abuse another. If you think treatment of children is excessive and abusive don't turn a blind eye, you could be next.  

 

[Tresco]

Jirac18, well  reasoned and argued, but

'Abused children grow up to be abusers'

There may be a significant statistical relationship between those who are abused as children - or indeed as adults, and those who go on to abuse, but not all victims of abuse go on to abuse others, by any means, although a significant number go on to self harm in various ways.

Going back to any difference between France and UK, I've been wondering if the 'law' which requires one to assist someone who is hurt or in danger - and i'm not sure if it is a 'law' or how it is framed - could apply in the instance of a child being abused in a public place. I'm not thinking of standing there quoting the 'law' in such a situation, just pondering. Anyone got any ideas about that?

[Patf]

I don't think it's a law, Tresco. More a moral responsibility. I once read a story which gives good advice on what to do if you see someone being set upon by a gang. Pretend that you know the victim and rush up to him/her as if angry saying "didn't I tell you not to come here today! " followed by a few (gentle) bashes. The attackers will be taken by surprise, with any luck, and back off.Pat.

[Musicmonkey<ADDRESS><STRONG>Musicmonkey<STRONG><ADDRESS>]

[quote]I don't think it's a law, Tresco. More a moral responsibility. I once read a story which gives good advice on what to do if you see someone being set upon by a gang. Pretend that you know the victim a...[/quote]

Pat,

I can see where you are coming from but (cynic that I am), I could also see your actions being picked up by CCTV and this brave act getting you into BIG trouble!  The camera can't tell how lightly you are bashing.

Musicmonkey

[Deby]

A while ago my 18 month old son was rather boisterous in the park - he grabbed a little girl and pinched her - quite strongly I might add.  I saw the whole thing and rushed over to diffuse the situation.  Meanwhile the girls' mother who was closer at the time decided to hit my child, not once but at least four times.  She actually slapped him quite harshly on his bare forearm.  I went absolutely ballistic at the mother who by then was consoling her frightened child. All this occurred in a matter of seconds.  I was of course in shock, the whole playground just stopped and stared at me/the situation -  this ranting english woman berating this stupid/idiotic french woman.

After I calmed down I went in search of the park police and explained to them what had happened.  They were not at all sure about what to do, the woman admitted she smacked my child but only to stop him hurting her child which she thought was perfectly fine. I did not.

The policier's response, well madame in France we like to discipline our children and I then quoted something of the children's rights, which are always displayed in schools.  'Children have the right to a safe environment and children should not be subject to physical abuse.' The Policiers were stuck and just really mocked me and told me to sort it out with the woman.  I wanted to make an official complaint but the Policiers would not hear of it.  I got the feeling that they thought as I am english it was not an issue.  Some  french women who I knew in the park also thought this woman was out of order, but of course they would not say anything.

So then, the Policiers think this behaviour is fine or that I am just English!

Deby

ps. I thought later I might have got a better reaction if I had punched the mother!!

[Teamedup]

RE Non-assistance à personne en danger:

This was a law and I suppose still is. Sometimes I'm not very good at finding things on the internet. And there has been at least one case of someone getting a jail sentence, when accused of  doing this. A scandal at the time as they had done the logical thing in the situation and not ignored or ran away.

[Dick Smith]

It must still be a live law - they tried to do the photographers who were supposedly chasing Princess Di under it, but failed.

[Georgina]

[quote]A while ago my 18 month old son was rather boisterous in the park - he grabbed a little girl and pinched her - quite strongly I might add. I saw the whole thing and rushed over to diffuse the situati...[/quote]

My goodness, thanks for posting this.  That is really shocking.  I don't know how far you could take such a situation in front of the children, but the reaction you got was incredible.  They would have been locked up in the UK.  Hitting an 18 month old baby, incredible!

Georgina

[Jirac18]

Tresco,

Indeed a generalisation was made in my comment. I think my point was understood. thanks.

Dick - is that really you or is it Gerry Adams 

[Kazanton]

Looks like a young Mark Twain to me!!