Dinner etiquette tips please

[lornameg]

Hi, all

We have been invited to eat a meal with the elderly, farming couple who own the house we will be renting for a year, from September.

Are there any faux pas that we could avoid, I'm sure the rules are different in France.

The meal is in the afternoon on a Sunday in a very rural area, the farmers are 80+........should we take a small gift, if so, what....presumably not wine, as in England.

Is it polite to arrive on time, or should we be fashionably late?

What is the dress code, do people dress up for a Sunday meal at home? Does this vary by region, we are going to the Lot et Garonne.

How long is it polite to stay after the meal is over?

We have eaten out in France fo years, but this is our first time en famille, are table manners different?

We feel it matters that we do not offend these lovely, welcoming people by doing anything crass, so all your knowledge would be most welcome.

[Alexis]

Always keep a piece of bread handy to wipe your plate.  It might be one plate for the whole meal and pudding mixed with gravy or sauce, can be a bit off putting.  Of course, you can always turn the plate over and eat off the under side.

Watch what they do.

Fashionably late?  I have never heard of anything so rude. 

[Val_2]

Remember to keep your cutlery after each course for the next one and so on. Don't be afraid to get stuck in and enjoy it and if offered seconds,take some. Here in Brittany a hearty appetite is a good sign of politeness no matter how disgusting the meal may actually be. Don't arrive before the said time, about 10mins after is a good idea but not too late. A homemade present is a good idea or flowers for madame and whisky or similar for Monsieur.

[Chrissie]

Don't dress up, but look neat, clean and tidy etc.  Homemade presents such as jam always go down well.  The trouble with biscuits, cakes etc is they tend to be offered back to you as part of the meal.  Flowers a good bet (not chrysanths!), in fact almost a necessity if this is your first oficial visit to their home, or a nice pot plant.

Have fun

Chrissie (81)

[zeb]

.....and don't forget that you may be served something bloody awful which you would never eat at home

We were invited to eat with elderly farming couple and their daughters a couple of years back and were given snails picked up from the garden and treated (!) a few days previously followed by tripe - yuk! Did my best to be polite

My problem when eating with French neighbours and friends is how to remain sober and polite when confronted with aperitifs, several different wines, alcohol laden sorbets and then cognac!!!!!!!

 

[Missy]

Arrive on time. +5 minutes won't matter but no later. After all your hosts are 80+ and it is the nature of old people to worry! Have you had an accident etc...! you'll never hear the end of it....If your car break down then have their phone number with you and explain that you are a little late because of it.

Bring flowers for Madame BUT NO! NO! NO! to anything remotly resembling or of the family of chrisants. They will take it in their heads that you wish them dead as chrisants are only bought and sold on November 1st All Saints day to adorn the graves of beloved departed!.....Seasonal flowers are the best and a riot of colours won't matter too much. But no uniform white! There again you are ready for a funeral!....

Monsieur will appreciate a bottle of whisky or english cheeses (Yes! my father loves it when I bring him some proper Stilton or Cheddar even smoked salmon)

Taboo subject of discussion : PoliticS AND ReligionS. In the plural!!

but welcome to expand on :

your health! which is a no-no in UK!

your family at home your children's achievements, school, universities, jobs whatever is their stage in life. Grand-children, parents anything goes.

your garden , the weather (subject familiar to UK people!)

At the table it is impolite to have your hands UNDER the table (Mind boggles : What ARE you doing with them under the table!....) So perfectly OK for a case of elbow ON the table. If you are given a large linen napkin perfectly OK to tuck it in your collar to save your shirt/dress front from any splashing. Or just rest it on your lap. See what your hosts do...

Don't eat too much bread as it will show that the food is awful and you are stuffing yourself to stave of hunger! Quite polite to wipe your plate with it as you are finishing your helping.

At the end of the meal, after coffee and cognac or digestif!, put your napkins all scrunched up where your plate would have been. If you fold it nice and tidy it means that your are expected/wanting to stay for the next meal.

Don't offer for washing up etc...You do not interfere with 80+ years of Madame's housekeeping management! Only once you have become a VERY GOOD neighbour you may be asked to help!

If they offer you a tour of their garden, go and have a look and marvel and sneekily/discretly take tips!

Once it's time to leave : profuse thanks to the chef (Madame of course!) for the excellent catering and Monsieur for the nice walk in the lovely garden.

Hope you have a nice time!

[GRT17]

How to stay sober!

Accept a very small aperitif (just the one!) and drink it as slowly as possible. Ask for some water to drink with the meal and  accept a little wine but just a half glass at a time. This will normally work quite well. Also explain that one of you has to drive the car home so must not be over the limit.

As other have said, a small gift is always welcome, flowers / plant, tea, biscuits etc.

Enjoy!

Gill

[Mpprh]

Hi

I also understand that nose picking and audible flatulence are frowned upon.

Peter

 

[Jc85]

From our experience flowers are always appreciated, food will be fed back to you and if you are given a time to arrive make sure you are there on the dot.

Make sure you pace yourself with the booze, when we first arrived we didn't and  have still not lived it down 7 years later.

Enjoy

 

Jax  

[Gine]

In Lot et garonne it is common to take champagne as a gift too. This will usually be drunk after the meal but before digestifs. Yet more alcohol to cope with......

[Will]

[quote]Hi I also understand that nose picking and audible flatulence are frowned upon. Peter[/quote]

...as my old French teacher at school was an inveterate nose-picker, for years I thought this was a popular French habit. Does that mean that inaudible flatulence is acceptable in the Languedoc? (though be very careful about wind - see http://forums.livingfrance.com/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=281&MessageID=176101)

Try not to throw up when your portion of boiled calf head contains an eye (I'm not joking here)

Better not to take wine, in some parts of France it is seen as a reflection on the hosts' taste.

Picking up food in the hands, using bread to soak up the sauces, elbows on the table are all things which we were told in England were disgusting, however in France they are quite the opposite.

[Coco]

Picking up food in the hands, using bread to soak up the sauces, elbows on the table are all things which we were told in England were disgusting, however in France they are quite the opposite.

And so I thought Bill.  But having recently checked it out with our Parisian neighbour she told me that it may be acceptable here in rural Normandy, it is certainly not acceptable in a middle class home in Paris.  Apparently it IS just about acceptable to wipe one's plate with the bread using one's fork.  I'm so glad she told me because within a couple of weeks we had a very smart Parisian lawyer staying here and I watched him like a hawk to see if Dominique was right or not.  He praised me on the sauce from the bourgignon, excused himself, and proceeded to wipe up the excess, with his bread, on the end of his fork.

I also thought it was acceptable to pick up bones etc here, but again was corrected by Dominique.  We're now trading lessons.  I'm teaching her how to use the internet (ha ha ha) and she's going to give me PROPER French etiquette lessons, as she says I have slipped into the peasant way of doing things.

[Opalienne]

Take flowers.   Arrive on time or at most 10 minutes late.   People in rural areas tend to dress up on Sundays, so I would wear something smart but not too formal (definitely not jeans if hosts are in their 80s).    Recently we left fairly soon after a meal with an elderly couple, thinking that we didn't want to disturb them more than was necessary, but were told off (nicely) for it!   So I would play that by ear.   You will find that people make lots of allowances for foreigners - enjoy yourselves and don't worry too much about it.

[Loiseau]

...elbows on the table are all things which we were told in England were disgusting, however in France they are quite the opposite.

 

Not too sure about the elbows thing really, in polite French society. 
When not actually manipulating your knife and fork, you are supposed to rest the front two-thirds of your forearms on the table, not the elbows themselves.

Has anyone cracked the problem of how to leave your knife and fork when you've finished?  Of course in the UK we'd put them together neatly.  But most French seem to cross them almost X-style - if they don't remove them from the plate altogether and lay them on the table. 
Yet when I have asked French friends what the rule is, they don't seem to be able to tell me...

Angela

[Coco]

"Not too sure about the elbows thing really, in polite French society. 
When not actually manipulating your knife and fork, you are supposed to rest the front two-thirds of your forearms on the table, not the elbows themselves."

Much as I was taught as a kid then.  There doesn't seem to be too much difference in manners between similar classes in the two cultures realy. 

As far as knives and forks go, most of our French guests seem to leave them at 9.15, or 2.45, whichever you prefer.  I was always taught 12 o'clock was the correct British way to leave them.  This is probably why in French restaurants we are always asked if we have finished, even though the plates are empty!

[Loiseau]

I am probably splitting hairs here, Coco, but I feel that the French leave their knife and fork at "20 to 4" (or "20 past 8", however you like to look at it) when they have finished - that is if they don't remove it from the plate altogether and put it on the knife-rest/tablecloth!

I quite agree; the way we leave them at "6.30" always has them foxed, and they are never sure if we have finished or not...

 

Angela

[Cascais]

[quote]Arrive on time. +5 minutes won't matter but no later. After all your hosts are 80+ and it is the nature of old people to worry! Have you had an accident etc...! you'll never hear the end of it....If y...[/quote]

blimey, when we invite someone here in England, it's just because we want to spend time with them, and would not let a few cross cultural differences offend us. Heck, they would probably add to the jolity of the evening.

Just Enjoy! People of that age will have seen many things in their lives, and are unlikely to be phased by an ill-chosen bloom.

[SaligoBay]

something smart but not too formal (definitely not jeans if hosts are in their 80s).   

And yet my friend in her 80s is far more open-minded than many in their 50s and 60s!   When they go on about the "fashions of today", girls in transparent skirts and thongs, she's the one who defends them, and says they're quite right to have such confidence.   It was her who told me "now your son's in collège, you'll have to get him a mobile phone", she didn't waste time bemoaning the txt culture! 

The only real no-no is chrysanths, they're flowers for the dead.

A decent wine always goes down well.

Just go and enjoy yourself.  They know you're aliens, they'll expect differences! 

Oh yes, the alcohol thing........ definitely, drink water as you progress through the meal.  This advice, based on painstaking years of research, comes to you free.   

[Battypuss]

Try your best to avoid asking to use the loo! I don't know why, but it is considered highly impolite, especially with the older generation. Exceptions are made for children and pregnant ladies. It took me about 5 years before I felt able to ask our elderly neighbour if I could use her facilities, but by that time she was used to me being weird...

After the meal, as someone else has said, play it by ear. These elderly people may well have been brought up in the system where nobody went to bed until everyone was asleep at the table! Leaving too early might imply you can't wait to be shot of them.

Think of a couple of reasons why you may not be able to physically stomach something that hits your plate. "Malheueusement, mon medecin a dit que je ne peux pas manger ...... pendant X mois" works OK. The French will never argue with their doctors and would not expect you to, either. Decide which one of you is the sick one, the other will have to grin (literally) and bear it.

Ask for recipes if poss. You may not get one, it could be a family secret, but the French tend to be convinced the English cannot cook and are happy to enlighten them.

Send a thank you note the next day. Plan on a return match....

[French Kat in England]

Hi there !

Just a few remarks from my experience. I am French and have lived there until I was 29 when I moved to England

I was taught that putting your elbows on the table is rude, but I'd say that you would have to be with upper class people to actually care about that. What I usually do, is be careful not to put them on the table for a start and observe what the other people do. If they don't mind doing it themselves, then feel free to do it ! It really depends on who you are with.

As for the fork and knife at the end of the meal, I have never heard of any rules there. It is only in England that I realised that some countries do have one Usually, when your plate is finished, you will be asked if you want a second helping, but the position of your cutlery won't mean anything to us