Longer Stays in France for early retirees - Info please!

[Matelot]

Hi there,

 I am hoping to hear from forum members who are retired and resident in the UK but who take the opportunity to visit France for extended holiday periods throughout the year.

My wife and I have a cottage in Loir-et-Cher which we use for holiday visits. Because of work we only manage to visit three times a year. However, we are well established in our little village because we have had the house for 22 years and we have a large circle of (mostly French) friends and neighbours.

 Because of the cuts in the public sector I will find myself redundant at the end of the summer and my wife will possibly face redundancy early next year. We are in our mid 50’s and will have our occupational pensions and no mortgage on our UK property. We will be what the French refer to as ‘inactifs’.

 The idea is to visit France for several periods of between 4 – 8 weeks throughout the year. Basically more holidays and for longer![:D] [:D] [:D] I am trying to find out the pro’s & con’s of this: i.e. legal length of stay, reciprocal healthcare, car insurance for longer stays, unoccupied property insurance, etc., and would like to hear from anyone who has a ‘foot in both camps’ and their experiences – good or bad.

I know there is a wealth of information on the internet (and in this forum), but it is always good to get practical information from individuals already doing this.

So thanks in advance to anyone kind enough to reply.    

Amicalement!

[woolybanana]

The legal limit to remain a UK resident for tax purposes is 180 days per year, but I have often wondered who is counting. As you would be breaking this up into small blocks, you just need to keep count of your days and maybe keep ticket 'stubs' from ferries or planes so you can show the time spent here.

Just one thought though: some people who have left the UK for more than 3 months to do voluntary work overseas have been told they no longer qualify for free NHS treatment. This may be a red herring but it could be worth checking it out.

[idun]

I belive it is six months per year, so say 180 days per year out of the UK to retain your right to health care in the UK.

When I was in hospital last year I actually heard my consultant in England mention this to a couple of nurses as they were chatting about someone doing exactly as you are mentioning. Something about someone spending most of the year in I think Cyprus and then returning to the UK for treatment.

As you would remain tax residents in the UK I would say that HMRC wouldn't check on your absences, but they have been known to, don't know about the health service, but I suppose that they could.

[Gardengirl]

We've done someting similar to what you're planning for several years, never staying longer than about 8 weeks at a time in France, so I would say the length of stay you mention should be fine. We now use Saga car insurance, which covers us in France up to a year; they also do car breakdown insurance. Our pattern tends to be that we drive down and stay for a few weeks, take  a flight to UK and stay for a few weeks for family celebrations etc, fly back to France, then drive back to UK after a while.

We have second home and contents insurance cover for the French apartment through a French company. I can't remember the cost just now, but it's not huge, although the apartment is very secure; the only things which stand out about the cover is a reminder to turn the water supply off when we aren't in residence, something we would do even if not requested to.

Our EHIC cards provide our health cover, as we are on holiday when there, but would return to UK for treatment for any long-term problems, which I did last Easter when a health issue occurred. According to our UK and French doctors, that is fine. We pay for visits to doctors and for any prescriptions and claim back on our travel insurance if it's worth it - remembering the excess. Following an accident I handed my EHIC card in at the hospital and eventually had a bill for about 30% of the costs of x-rays, treatment etc which wasn't covered. I claimed for that and the pack of dressings etc for the nurse's use on home visits from my travel insurance.

I can't think of any great problems with anything, apart from the garden suffering I really should get round to getting someone in to help out. Our current way of life suits us very well; we escape the grey of the Thames Valley for quite a bit of the winter and the heat of the summer of the Gard - which is just what we planned when we started out.

Enjoy it!  [:D]

[Hoddy]

Car insurance shouldn't be a problem. The only thing we've found difficult is that the older we get the more difficult it is to get health insurance. We can still get multi-trip insurance but it becomes increasingly difficult if you want to be out of the UK for more than 60 days. It's silly really - an extra journey home and back to France again is unlikely to lessen any health problem you might have. We've only ever need emergency treatment (Stanley knife) and that was covered without a problem.

Hoddy

[Matelot]

Many thanks for your prompt (and useful) replies and suggestions!

Keep 'em coming please!

Amicalement!

 

[andyh4]

I am not sure about - indeed confused about - the 180 days, since if you are no longer a UK resident and spend more than 90 days in the UK (including the days of travel) you are deemed tax resident.  So it seems if both rules apply at the same time you can have the status of a resident non resident.

[Jazzer]

I have heard, don't know if it is true, that ferry companies make their passenger lists available to the tax authorities.

[cooperlola]

I admit, Andy, that I'm with you on this (confused, I mean).  Tax-wise the "180 day rule" is somewhat spurious - it's more about where the income is earned etc and is pretty complex.  However, from a health point of view it could certainly prove critical and if I were in the o/p's shoes I would be very careful not to exceed it - in fact I would go so far as to try to stay well within it (say 5 months rather than six) as it's not written in stone anywhere that anybody has ever proved to my satisfaction, that this is the healthcare cut-off "allowance" either.  However, I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong when I see the written legislative evidence.

GG's advice on this front seems 100% sound to me, and she's got the t-shirt.[:)]

[Matelot]

Good points Cooperlola! Regarding the tax situation, we would be taxed on our pensions here in the UK. But you are right to suggest that we err on the side of caution.

 I think we could get by with spending five months of the year in La Belle France!![:D]

Just out of interest Garden-Girl, do you have to inform your UK house insurer if you are away from any length of time and do they 'load' your premium in any way? 

Thanks again for all replies!

 

[Will]

I wouldn't get too worried about the 90-day rules as far as tax is concerned, you actually need to average 90 days in UK over each of four (I think) consecutive years, and the rule only tends to be invoked to catch large-scale non-dom tax avoiders. Anyway, there's no problem for most people about qualifying for fiscal residence in both UK and France; the double taxation agreement takes good care of the decision about where any part of your income is taxed.

As far as health care/social security is concerned, Coops is right in that the 180-day period isn't set in stone. It depends on where you spend most time. For example, under the EEA reciprocal agreements, if you spent 170 days in UK, 160 days in France, and the remainder of the year somewhere else, you could still claim eligibility for UK health care as that is where you spend most time (as long as that's where you pay your contributions of course). But I agree, best to make it as clear-cut as you can.

[idun]

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Entitlementsandcharges/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_074384

Here is a link.

Looks like if you are not of retirement age and spend more than three months a year out of the UK, then you no longer have an entitlement to free NHS treatment.

[cooperlola]

That link is for pensioners, Idun.

For the pre-retired this applies:

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Entitlementsandcharges/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_074386

However, it is still very complicated (certainly 180 days is not correct) and it is not clear cut.

[idun]

LOL, I had copied the wrong link onto the page, thanks cooperlola.

Me, I would do as I always do and contact the body concerned, ie in this case about NHS health care and that would be the Dept of Health and see what they say.

[cooperlola]

What I found most interesting in the link was the caveat at the end suggesting that the NHS trusts have ultimate discression.

"Individual hospitals are responsible for deciding whether, in accordance with the regulations, a patient is liable to be charged for treatment or not. In order to establish entitlement, hospitals can ask you to provide documentation that supports your claim for free treatment, such as evidence of where you live, moving permanently back to the UK etc, as appropriate. "

ditto for GPs.

Also, it says that if you come back after 3 months to live "permanently" then fine.  Thus my guess is that anybody who gets ill and is likely to need long-term treatment would just say that they have moved back for good.  The link is just so full of ifs and buts and I'd be amazed if anybody at the DHS (or whatever it is called) would have a difinitive answer either.  It's a  minefield.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="idun"]don't know about the health service, but I suppose that they could.[/quote]

The mind boggles at the beaurocratic machinations that this would entail. Ain't never going to happen!

[Gardengirl]

Matelot, we're covered for two months for any one trip away for house buildings and contents insurance, so that's OK. We've only made one trip longer than that, and after seeking advice from our then insurance company, one of our sons spent a couple of nights in his old room, as well as his weekly visit to check all was well; the insurance company told us that would be fine, as he was a family member. I'm not clear on our current company on that point, but we have no plans for a longer stay anywhere.

Cooperlola, that t-shirt should say - been there, done that, but which house it's in I haven't a clue!  [:D]

[Cluzo]

 For the past 8 years we spend April May Juneish in  France - return home to miss the heat and holiday makers then back for Sept Oct .

I think we have the same insurance as GG with Saga with Breakdown cover  . we have never had to claim

Our house in UK is insured with NW and provided the heating is left on at 13 degrees and somebody checks property over every 14 days .  Our daughter comes every day to feed cat and do the bins etc .

we have never had to claim .

Our health is covered by EHIC . My OH  had a heart attack in France taken to hospital by ambulance - had a stent put in -spent 4 days in intensive care and 3 days in small Heart ward . We Just had to pay a few euros a day -just over a hundred in all and 150 E for a months prescription of heart drugs   all the rest was covered by our EHIC    ( the intensive care room was over E 1000 a day )  .

As luck would have it - 6 weeks later back in the UK  he had virtually the same experience - a heart attack -ambulance to hospital and a stent inserted  and a week in hospital - totally covered by NHS of course !!

He says he preferred the French experience !!! .

One bit of advice - know your measurements in metric !!  my OH is 6"3 and 18 st   When asked for the info  in hospital i converted it to 7"8  and 11st   !!! or something like that !!!! I now have it written on a sticky in our passports !!!    By the way his feet stuck out the back of the ambulance !!!!

Luckily we have never had to return for our health appointments but we manipulate the timing of our journeys round appointments - at the moment Im in the middle of dental treatment ( not NHS) and OH  new hearing aids ( also not NHS)

Our daughter opens our mail and manipulates appointments for us . In fact she re-arranged my routine mammagram for me which I might have missed otherwise ( and I did turn out to have Breast cancer)   Everyone was very helpful about arranging treatment arround us to-ing and fro-ing to France .

I hope that gives some pros and cons for you Matelot .    I have to be very organised about it all and write loads of lists and stop possible cons  from developing - other than that its all pros .

[NickP]

Matelot check your message box or your E/Mails

Cheers NickP

[Gardengirl]

I forgot about mail until I read Cluzo's post; I arrange for redirection to our son, who lives nearby. I had thought of having it redirected to France, but decided there might be more risk of letters going astray, and that we might have to return home suddenly and perhaps have to stay for longer than expeced. In fact, that happened last year, when we flew back to UK for a few days and became caught up in all the problems surrounding the ash from Iceland.

Like Cluzo, I also found medical staff mostly very helpful about arranging treatment around our trips when I needed treatment for several months.

I also arranged for postal votes, although as things turned out we were in UK for the general election.

[Matelot]

Thanks again folks! Some really useful info here. Really appreciated.

Now all I need is me occ pension! I know I should not wish my life away, but roll on July!!!

[Sprogster]

One of the problems in the UK is that there is no statutory definition of tax residence, although the previous and existing UK governments committed themselves to introduce one, to try and clarify the considerable uncertainty in this area. However, I would not hold your breath, as the uncertainty works in favour of HMRC, as the 180 days in any one year, or average of ninety days a year over four years are just HMRC statements of practice, but not in themselves definitive, just one of many factors they consider.

Over the past two years HMRC have been tightening the screws by making it increasingly difficult for individuals to lose their UK tax residence and have won several landmark cases recently against individuals by claiming that they are still UK resident, although they had left the UK many years ago and had been fastidious about not breaching the so called ninety day rule.

These judgements have now endorsed a new HMRC rule that to become non UK tax resident you must demonstrate a clean break from the UK for at least one tax year, which is now very difficult to do, if you either continue to have close family in the UK, make regular visits, maintain a UK residence, or do not have full time employment abroad.

Therefore, a UK retiree making extended visits to their second home in France, whilst returning periodically to the UK, would not be able to demonstrate a clean break and would retain their UK tax residence regardless of the days spent in the UK.

This in itself does not stop one becoming French tax resident if one spends the majority of your time in France, as it is possible to be tax resident in both the UK and France.

In summary, HMRC is making it increasingly difficult for UK nationals to become non UK tax resident, especially if they are not going abroad for the purpose of employment and in all circumstances the clean break requirement is now the critical consideration.

[andyh4]

I agree totally Sprogster and as a result my OH end up being tax resident in 3! countries - however reading the NHS links there seems to be a disconnect between tax residency and rights to (full) NHS service.

[Gardengirl]

Interesting comments about HMRC, Sprogster. I can remember a few headline cases to that effect. It doesn't affect us at the moment as we don't intend to make the move to France full time, and all due tax is paid - including a very unexpected amount they demanded this week.

But it's definitely food for thought. Up to now a lot of professional advice has been to the effect that your centre of economic interest was the major factor, plus where your main home is etc.

[fisherman]

This subject is of particular interest to us as this is something we are planning to do in the long term.

Are there any advantages of being non UK tax resident. I'm by no means any expert but I would have thought that it is easier to organise ones tax affairs in the UK where one knows the rules however muddled they are.