Returning to the UK

[Doodle]

Hi,

My neighbours (and good friends) are in the UK at the moment, they went over for Christmas and unfortunately he took ill, went into hospital and it seems he may have cancer. He is waiting the results of more tests but it seems very likely he will be having an operation. Whatever the outcome they have decided to sell up here as they don't speak french and say neither one of them could cope on their own here. They've asked me if I could find out what they would have to pay if anything on the sale of their property and if they have to come back to france to sign the paperwork, the house was bought in joint names but at the moment he is unable to travel.

I don't have a clue so I'm hoping someone can either tell me what's what or point me to some websites with answers as I would like to help them as much as I can.

They are in their mid 60's, have owned this house since last January, are tax resdident in the UK, do not have a home in the UK and are staying with their daughter at the moment.

I would be absolutely grateful for any information.

Kneegel

[Sunday Driver]

The main expense involved with a house sale will be the diagnostic reports which they must provide to the buyer.  Agent's and notaire's fees are the responsibility of the buyer. They can avoid having to return to France by appointing a proxy to sign the papers in their absence.  The notaire's clerk will normally oblige.

However, the critical point is to avoid any potential liability to capital gains tax.  They will need to provide proof that the property is their principal residence and for this, income tax bills are normally required.  However, as their first French tax declaration is not due until this coming May (note that they ceased being tax resident in the UK when they moved over here) then they may be able to provide alternative acceptable proof, eg an attestation of cover from their CPAM, utility bills evidencing full time occupation.   Best advice is for them to discuss the situation with their notaire. 

 

 

 

[PaulT]

Plus they will not be entitled to NHS care as they are not UK residents

[Will]

[quote user="P2"]Plus they will not be entitled to NHS care as they are not UK residents[/quote]

Yes they will if it is their intention to live in Britain permanently and

are not 'heath tourists'. We really should knock this scaremongering

misapprehension on the head once and for all.

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Entitlementsandcharges/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_074376

At worst they will be liable for capital gains tax on any profit made

on the sale of the French house, but as SD says, if they can provide

other proof of permanent residence apart from French tax documentation,

they should be able to avoid this. It's the people who have tried to

stay 'under the radar' who are liable to get caught out in these

circumstances, those who have been honest should be OK.

Frankly, after taking fees etc into account, it's highly unlikely there would be any capital gains liability after only a year of ownership in the present climate. Some of the diagnostic reports from when they bought may still be current, though others, such as termites, have a limited life.

The can appoint a proxy (often a member of the notaire's staff can act for them, just as SD says) at the signing of the Acte de Vente. All other documentation can easily be dealt with by post.

[Doodle]

Thanks SD for the info. I don't know too much about their past other than before moving to france they had been living in Spain for two years. Presumably the capital gains tax potential is only on any profit derived from the sale of the property however in this instance, I doubt the sale of the property will cover the original purchase price and restauration costs (they have all the bills). I am correct here?

Thanks, Kneegel

[Doodle]

Thanks Will and SD that's also answered the question about capital gains.

As I've said I'm not sure as to their past, they have a government pension so had to be paid in the UK as well as the old age pension so would be on an E121. Although they bought the house in Jan last year they didn't move in until the end of May when the renovations were completed and I know they have not registered with CPAM - that was going to be done this year with our help so I'm not sure if they can find other proof of permanent residence. I will check with them.

Thanks so much for the info..........kneegel

[Benjamin]

As far as I'm aware the diagnostics should cost in the range of E200 to E600 depending on the age of the property and the liklehood of lead being present.

[Doodle]

Thanks Benjamin, I'll pass that on to them. Kneegel

[mint]

I find it strange that they have not registered for CPAM.  Surely, that is one of the very first things you do when you come here to live permanently?

After all, what guarantee have you that you aren't going to need the doctor?  It's not one of those things you plan to do "next year", is it?

Nobody plans to be ill???

[AnOther]

Possibly more to this than meets the eye sweets [;-)]

[Doodle]

Hi Sweet 17,

Agreed, but the wife had been waiting for a date for a minor NHS operation to be carried out in the UK for which she had been waiting a long time and the operation finally took place in the latter part of last year but which then took longer than expected to heal up so there was a lot of travelling back and forth. It was the final check up in December when her OH took ill.

They really have had an unfortunate time.

[Doodle]

[quote user="AnOther"]Possibly more to this than meets the eye sweets [;-)]

[/quote]

Nothing untoward AnOther just a serious of unfortunate mishaps and that's not to mention the problems they've had with the renovations undertaken by an english 'artisan' with a siret number which we now know holds absolutely no guarantees whatsoever but that is another thread.

Kneegel

[Tony F Dordogne]

Sorry knee gel, something here just doesn't add up does it.  They've been living in Spain for two years, therefore they should be tax residents of Spain and registered with the Spanish health authorities.

They've been in France permenantly since May 2009 and haven't registered with CPAM but are going back to the Uk for health treatment to which they're no longer entitled.

There is something untoward in all this, especially if they are, as you say, still tax resident in the UK.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

They've been living in Spain for two years, therefore they should be tax residents of Spain and registered with the Spanish health authorities.

[/quote]

I doubt if there are many UK expats registered in Spain.

.

[Doodle]

Hi Tony,

Maybe you are right, I don't know, perhaps I'm being naive we ourselves have done everything by the book (terrified of french authorities!) and as said previously I don't know about their past, they came to me for help and that is what I'm trying to do. They received their OAP last year which would then I believe entitle them to an E121 doesn't that cover health treatment anywhere in the EU. One of them receives a civil service pension and therefore it's automatically taxed in the UK.

I must say I'm learning a lot from all of this, keep it coming SVP.

[Judith]

[quote user="knee gel"]They received their OAP last year which would then I believe entitle them to an E121 doesn't that cover health treatment anywhere in the EU. [/quote]

AFAIK - you still have to register at CPAM , even with a E121, before treatment is "paid for" but then it is not "universal". It is the E111 equivalent which gives them emergency treatment anywhere in the EU, not full blown treatment. 

I agree, they may not not have intended to do things this way, and even waiting for an op in the UK, if registered here with a doctor, I can bet it would have been done long before the UK op. 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="knee gel"]Hi Tony, Maybe you are right, I don't know, perhaps I'm being naive we ourselves have done everything by the book (terrified of french authorities!) and as said previously I don't know about their past, they came to me for help and that is what I'm trying to do. They received their OAP last year which would then I believe entitle them to an E121 doesn't that cover health treatment anywhere in the EU. One of them receives a civil service pension and therefore it's automatically taxed in the UK. I must say I'm learning a lot from all of this, keep it coming SVP.[/quote]The E121 entitles them to treatment in their new country of residence (France) and they should have got an EHIC to cover their treatment in the UK and the rest of Europe.  But they didn't and that is that - they're going through a tough time so they may just have to put on a bit of front, act naive and get on with it.  As they are returning to the UK to live, I doubt if they'll be in any hot water for not registering in France even though technically they most certainly should have done.

[Russethouse]

The UK NHS qualification depends on residence - if they have been living in Spain and France then it seems to me that the wife at least was playing the system....

No doubt they sat enjoying their glass of vino collapso congratulating themselves on getting away from dreadful GB, never once thinking that in taking advantage of something they weren't really entitled to, they were adding to the situation......

At least as they seem to now be resident they are entitled so that the husband can get treatment.

Not your fault Knee gel, but its maddening none the less [:(][:(]

[Chancer]

Why do you find it maddening RH?

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

I doubt if there are many UK expats registered in Spain.

.

[/quote]

You're undoubtedly right but for most of them it's out of fear of a system which is seen as complicated and is made more so by the Spanish funcionarios who delight in being awkward and generally as unhelpful as possible.

It actually works out for the average person that it's cheaper to declare in Spain and not the UK. Much the same as in France.

Because the Spanish health system is free at the point of delivery many eligible ex-pats didn't even bother with an E121 thus causing Spain to miss out of the annual fee from the UK Government. This became such a problem that Spain told it's doctors to refuse anything other than emergency treatment when it was obvious that the person should have had E121 cover.

It'll probably take a similar initiative by the Spanish Government to up their take as far as ex-pat income tax is concerned.

[Russethouse]

Because the NHS is stretched enough without people who are not entitled making claims on its resourses, and whatever the rights and wrongs (and no doubt there is a whole other debate there) the criteria in the UK  is actual residence. If someone decides to throw their  lot in with another country then that should include health care provision.....

 

[Cendrillon]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Because the NHS is stretched enough without people who are not entitled making claims on its resourses, and whatever the rights and wrongs (and no doubt there is a whole other debate there) the criteria in the UK  is actual residence. If someone decides to throw their  lot in with another country then that should include health care provision.....

 

[/quote]

RH

I believe the NHS is tightening up on non residents. I talked to friend yesterday, she is British and has never owned property or lived abroad, she is going to see an NHS consultant next week and has been asked to take proof of residency (a bill or similar) to prove that she is entitled to NHS care. It's the first time I have heard of this happening.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Because the NHS is stretched enough without people who are not entitled making claims on its resourses, and whatever the rights and wrongs (and no doubt there is a whole other debate there) the criteria in the UK  is actual residence. If someone decides to throw their  lot in with another country then that should include health care provision.....[/quote]

But isnt that what this couple have done, thrown in their lot for Spain, then France and then the UK again?

Surely they are entitled to NHS treatment, they probably were not  to Spanish or French system.

Still dont see why it maddens you to use the limited resources to treat a terminally ill UK citizen who is once again resident whilst agreeing with providing translations and paid for translators in seventeen languages.

[Doodle]

Hi Judith,

I believe you are so right about the op being done sooner. In fact, he was quite ill had difficulty breathing before they went back to the UK for her check up and I suggested he go to the doctor, he was reluctant again language problem so I suggested the pharmacy where he was given medicine for his chest. I was hoping he'd go to the doctor as I'm sure he would have ended up in hospital immediately and I know from another friends experience that he would not have been out of there until all the tests /ops etc had been carried out. Trouble is he worked for the NHS and was very positive about the system - I don't think he's so pro NHS now though.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Chancer"][quote user="Russethouse"]

Because the NHS is stretched enough without people who are not entitled making claims on its resourses, and whatever the rights and wrongs (and no doubt there is a whole other debate there) the criteria in the UK  is actual residence. If someone decides to throw their  lot in with another country then that should include health care provision.....[/quote]

But isnt that what this couple have done, thrown in their lot for Spain, then France and then the UK again?

Surely they are entitled to NHS treatment, they probably were not  to Spanish or French system.

Still dont see why it maddens you to use the limited resources to treat a terminally ill UK citizen who is once again resident whilst agreeing with providing translations and paid for translators in seventeen languages.

[/quote]

Did you read what I wrote  ?

Of course he is resident and entitled but its also mentioned that she returned for treatment under the NHS when she was living in France - you can't choose where you are resident and just decide for yourself because you pay UK tax on your pension you are entitled - although you may feel that is the correct way. As I understood from the post she had lived in Spain and France but still returned to the UK for treatment....