Right of access from land that I own.

[JohnM]

My property is two parcels of land. One is the house, the other is a driveway that the neighbours need to use to access their houses and land.

Only one house is a permanent residence (Savoie folk born and bred), the other 4 (mine included) are second homes. Most of us are great people (me included :-) ), but one is owned by paris folk! They are a pain. They are very possesive of their land, which would be fine..... BUT the flat and land are separated by my drive. So he removed some of his fence and put concrete blocks into my flower bed so that he could get in. He hung a "Private Property" sign on his fence right in front of full timers window (which upset them). He insisted that the bit of my drive opposite his front door is his parking slot and insisted that the Danish folk that share his front door, park elsewhere. I once asked if some frends with young children could play in his land and he refused, citing the fact that a tree had been damaged by people going in. I know for a fact that the weight of the fruit broke the branch, but he thinks it was vandalism. At this moment, they are playing badminton on "my" drive.

I don't really want to cause a fuss, but I do want a weapon in my armoury should the need arise.

So..

Is access and a "right to park" the same thing?

When I look at the plan the notaire gave me, there are not any "gaps" in the line which might indicate where the access should be, (but there is a gap in the far corner of his field, 50 metres up the road). who would know, the notaire or the marie - will it be expensive to find out?

Is access and badminton the same thing?

I'm quite happy for nice people to park on the drive, play on the drive, etc etc etc.... but if ownership gives me some power, then I want to know! If their access is officially up the road, I might just plant a Berberis or Pyrocantha in my flower bed.

I have had a search for access and border disputes but I can't find anything similar.

Cheers

John

[Patf]

Just a guess - you need to research "servitudes."

A similar situation exists in our commune, near to us, but the difference is that the protagonists are permanent residents and have added the additional threat of  "Attention Chien" to reinforce their position.

As with many things in France , the legal right, and the ability to enforce it, are often two different things.

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

"When I look at the plan the notaire gave me, there are not any "gaps" in the line which might indicate where the access should be, (but there is a gap in the far corner of his field, 50 metres up the road). "

What I've quoted above confuses me. It sounds like your Parisian's land abuts the road at some point. Is there any way that he could get to the road without crossing your land, even if it means bridging ditches or demolishing walls or hedges?

As far as I am aware right of access is just that: the right to cross someone else's land to get to your own plot, not for parking or playing. I'd be off to the notaire like a shot -- that's the only place you'll get a proper opinion.

[JohnM]

I'm not sure if I can describe this very well. My drive is at 90 degrees to the road, a 200 year old terrace of 4 dwellings face onto the drive. The first bit of the terrace is actually 2 dwellings (Paris below and Denmark above). On the other side of the drive is a modern house. Then comes me in the middle. Directly opposite is the Paris field, they have a garage facing onto the drive. Then it's Savoie, opposite them is their field). The drive continues for another 100 meters and there is another house. If you go back to the road and walk passed the modern house, the plan shows a path from the road into the paris field.

(Edited coz I forgot a bit)

They would have to use the drive, but me thinks they "ought" to go to the road, along the road in and in along the path - or knock a door in their garage.

[Judie]

It should be made quite clear in your acte de vente what the rights of others are in respect of droits de passage. They should normally state whether the right is on foot, in a car or even with a wheelbarrow. It should also state whether parking is allowed ( which I doubt, unless your notaire was particularly inefficient ).

As the previous poster says, get off to your notaire to check, or look in your paperwork.

[JohnM]

I'm tempted to ask Savoie and Denmark what their paperwork says, but due to language problems, I don't want them to think I am Mr "Get orf my land". They can do what they like.

So, once I've got back to the UK and checked the paperwork, the next stop is the notaire and not the town hall?

[JohnM]

And the bit I forgot...

Thanks for your help.

[gosub]

You could try using the cadastral map it may help with measurements etc.

CADASTRE

[JohnM]

Thanks for that. Very interesting, but sadly it doesn't indicate where the gate should be.

[Boiling a frog]

You need to sort this out with the notaire.

It is common in France for an access road such as you describe to be owned jointly ie by everyone, If this is the case then everyone has equal use of it .

If on the other hand you own the road then possibly the others have a right of way over it.

[tibbs]

On the plan Cadastral  via the link given, what does the hashed lines mean, i.e. are they access places for example.

These are shown on my bits of land and also 'x' are shown.

Any ideas?

[Judie]

Hashed or dotted lines like this - - - - - across a piece of land indicate a right of way.

[tibbs]

Some are like this---- but others are _ _ _ _  across the parcel of land, but this is the middle of the field and is adjoined to the neighbours garden, but do not continue onto their land so cannot be a right of way I think.

Thanks for your reply

[tibbs]

This is what it looks like.

 

 

[IMG]http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx55/tibbs_2009/cadasrte.jpg[/IMG]

[Judie]

Can you enlarge it and tell us who owns what? It will be easier to interpret. Or email me if you want.

[Aly]

Why don't you go to your local cadastre office and ask them to interpret it for you?

[tibbs]

Hi again, bit late in replying as I don't log in every day.

52 is my piece of land and next door owns 49. If you notice the hashed lines run across both parcels. I am not in dispute or anything, just inquisitive as my neighbour has expressed an interest in buying the parcel below 52, which is just a long field, his is a veg garden. He saws he wants to extend his garden, but he is his seveties and just plants lots of leeks in his bit, and I think he may have other motives but that may be just me being cynical.

Also are the 'X' marked bourne points or something else.

Thanks

Ian

 

[IMG]http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx55/tibbs_2009/VILLEFEVRIER.jpg[/IMG]

 

[Judie]

The longer hashed line gives access between the road and  parcel 53. The smaller one gives access between parcel 49 and parcel 53. The Xs usually show who owns each side of the parcel. On N° 53 the X to the south and to the east show boundaries belonging to you. The boundary to the west appears to be shared between you and your neighbour.

[Cendrillon]

Judie

Thanks for a really helpful reply. I for one never knew about the Xs and ownership.

John, I am trying to follow this as it is an interesting case but I find it confusing. [8-)]Can you let us know which parcelles Paris, Denmark, Savoie and you Angleterre own?

btw I love these names for the neighbours.[:)]

[JohnM]

One day I'll find out what the neighbours are called but I've only been there 8 years...

Gerard & Isabelle have owned plots 715 677 676 688 and perhaps 689 690 and 691 for about 30 years.

Ole and Hanne from Denmark own 682, 679 and probably 678.

Christine and Laurent from Paris own 681, which is a 2 room appartment on half of the first floor of Ole and Hanne's. They own 922 and 686.

My paperworks says....

Les sol et cour cadastrés section B No 716 et B No 683, précision étant faite que la parcelle 683 est grevée d'une servitude de passage au profit des propriétés voisins.

I think I understand servitude as access, but does profit mean that then can "use" it to their advantage.

Sorry, can't post the pic. No matter what I do, the html delimiters are being turned into ascii so that they post as typed, instead of denoting instructions, yet the plan shows up properly in the preview screen. I'm stumped.

[woolybanana]

There is a servitude for access across my neighbour's land to get to my place. One day we were chattering and I asked him what rights I had over the route and he was sure that I had only a right of passage, not a right to leave cars or anything else.

[Sunday Driver]

I'm not sure that those dotted lines indicate rights of way.  My understanding is that the cadastre is merely a fiscal tool and that servitudes are noted separately in the land registry record.

For example, my own cadastral record shows my land divided into two parcels by a dotted line, separating the main house/garden from a field.  The field portion as marked with a small 'a'. From a fiscal point of view, that seems to designate my land as bati and non-bati.  I have no servitudes associated with my land.  My neighbour's land has similar subdivisions of such irregular shape that they couldn't be rights of way.

On John's plan, the dotted line leading from the road across 684 and 921 appears to only create sub-plots marked 'a' in each case, so it looks like the only access available to Paris is via John's drive, hence the servitude.

 

 

[JohnM]

I've found some more legal in the Expédition which says:

Une parcelle de terrain à usage de cour figurant au cadastre de cette commune de la manière suivante: No 683, Contenance 05A 25CA, Tel que ce bien existe avec ses aisances, parties attenantes et dépendances, et les droits de toute nature qui y sont attachés, sans exception ni réserve.

This is because the parisiennes toilet is in the garage (top left corner( so they obviously have the right to access that via 683, but I wonder if they should be accessing the rest of 922 via the garage instead of taking the fence down and putting stepping stones in my flower bed.

Now that I've found it, I'll continue to delve into the expedition.

(Edited because I was looking at a photocopy of the cadastre and the garage is an X on that, so that's what I typed)

[JohnM]

Hah! I need to look at Volume 4656 number 13 at the Chambery land registry

Le nouveau propriétaire supportera la servitude de passage constitué au profit de la parcelle B 684 sur bien suivant: parcelle B 683, ainsi que cela résulte d'un acte reçu par Maître RENOUD Notaire à LA CHAMBRE le 6 Octobre 1962, publié au l'bureau des hypothèques de CHAMBERYle 8 Novembre 1962, Volume 4656 numéro 13, et il en respectera toutes conditions d'exercise.

[Clair]

A "servitude de passage" is nothing more than an access right.

See: http://www.droitquotidien.net/Pages%20rubriques/servitudepassage.html (translation)