Writing a French Will

[John Brown]

Apologises if this question has been asked before, but I've searched and nothing relevant came up.

My wife and I would like to write French Wills.

Everything is straight forward. Leaving everything to whoever survives the other and then everything 50 -50 between our two kids.

It appears from the advice on inheritance on this Forum that thats how it would work without Will's being written anyway

The only thing like most of us ( I guess ) we still have some money and bank accounts in the UK

Is there a guide to writing a French Will or do you always have to go to a Notaire and talk it through from scratch

Any idea of the cost and would it help to attempt to write out the general principles ourselves

JB

 

[pachapapa]

If you google testament there are plenty of suggestions.

http://droit-finances.commentcamarche.net/contents/transmission/ds30-testament-mode-d-emploi.php3

[pachapapa]

The testament is just part of the larger picture by the way.

http://droit-finances.commentcamarche.net/contents/transmission/

[tinabee]

[quote user="John Brown"]
Everything is straight forward. Leaving everything to whoever survives the other and then everything 50 -50 between our two kids.
It appears from the advice on inheritance on this Forum that thats how it would work without Will's being written anyway

 
[/quote]

French inheritance law is not quite so straight forward since children are reserved heirs, you cannot simply leave everything to the surviving spouse. There are ways to achieve a similar outcome, but you will need to research it and see a notaire.

Have a look at this site for the basics

http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/inheritance/

 

 

[John Brown]

Thanks for all the help

I'd been searching for "writing a French Will" etc, not as I should have, inheritance law. My mistake !

I'll do the research and go see the Notaire who dealt with the house purchase.

I case I can't find reference to this question

Would an English Bank accept French Inheritance Law and part with your money or do you need to write an identical Will in the UK!

I could always bring most of it over when the exchange rate improves then its not a problem

Thanks again

JB

[AnOther]

It's normal I believe to declare your marriage regime when purchasing a property, we did and declared 'Communauté universelle'

The site linked to earlier is very detailed and a simplified description of the various regimes can be found here:

http://www.france-property-and-information.com/marriage.htm

I've heard that changing it can be an expensive affair and

illustrates the benefit of taking independent legal advice.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Replying to your last question, if you have assets in, say, UK as well as France, under new European rules you can choose which jurisdiction - French or British - handles your estate on death. This does not change national rules, such as French succession laws already referred to, but it is intended to simplify the administration.

A simple French will, hand written ('olographe') covering your French assets can cost under 100 euros and lodged with the Notaire; for more complex probably no need to spend more than 500 euros - based on personal experience. As already noted, the Notaire can advise on all the complexities such as protecting the surving spouse.

Hope this helps - P-D de R.

[AnOther]

[quote user="John Brown"]I could always bring most of it over when the exchange rate improves[/quote]When would that be then [blink]

[parsnips]

Hi,

      Provided all your children are of your present marriage, and you simply want the survivor to have full  use of the other's estate, you can have a "donation entre époux" drawn up  which gives the survivor several choices of how to take the estate when the time comes. Usually it is taken in "Usufruit" or life interest. For  fuller powers of disposal you can specify a "Quasi-Usufruit selon Art.587 du Code Civil" for all the non-real estate assets. You can also have a notaire draft a will in the same terms which you can then copy in your own hand-writing.

       Or:

      Rather than change your marriage regime , which could be expensive, you could ensure the surviving spouse gets all the estate in full title by having a notaire draw up wills whereby you each leave your estates in a "legs residuel" where the survivor inherits fully , with the right to dispose of or consume all the assets (including the house) with the proviso that they cannot give them away, or will them ,to anyone but the children, and that at the survivor's death everything that remains passes to the children. This has to be done as a "pacte de famille" before a notaire and the children have to agree (in an "Acte") to delay their inheritance rights.   

[Gluestick]

On the advice of a close friend, an English and international lawyer and unusually, an Avocat in France, at which profession he worked until retirement, my wife and I prepared simple French handwritten (Holographic) wills, which related to our English jurisdiction "Mirror" wills.

Our personal situtation is very simple and straightforward, as we have remained married all our adult lives and have just one child, our son.

We did (Again at our friend's suggestion) request the Notaire insert a Tontine Clause in the property completion documentation: and realise now with the various changes and amendments to French inheritance law, this needs careful current consideration.

Take considered professional advice.

It tends to be too late after event...............

As my practice always informs clients (On tax) post-event Tax Planning is somewhat tricky!

Some actually listen and pay heed.

[Www]

[John Brown]

A big thank you to everyone thats contributed to my question.

You have helped me make a significant start with this issue, which my wife keeps reminding me is urgent. Usually about 4.30 in the morning.

I keep finding man-traps all over the garden. so I'm watching my back !

The exchange rate WILL continue to go up over the next few months. Me and David are best mates, and Nick's OK too.

Seriously, thanks again

JB

[JeanS]

Interesting thread. I went to a notaire about writing a will and she just said not to.

. Our situation is slightly different. My partner and I both have children for previous marriages. Unfortunately his is estranged from his and does not want them to inherit - he feels they've had sufficient from him over the past few years. We have back to back UK wills - all our money is in UK banks . We only stay at our French house for 4/5 months in the summer. So is it time to have another try at making a French will??

[parsnips]

[quote user="JeanS"]Interesting thread. I went to a notaire about writing a will and she just said not to.

. Our situation is slightly different. My partner and I both have children for previous marriages. Unfortunately his is estranged from his and does not want them to inherit - he feels they've had sufficient from him over the past few years. We have back to back UK wills - all our money is in UK banks . We only stay at our French house for 4/5 months in the summer. So is it time to have another try at making a French will??[/quote]

Hi, Provided you never stay more than 182 days in France , and still have a home in the UK, you are not french resident so only your french house will pass under french inheritance law.

Whether you should make arrangements for it (not necessarily a will) depends on how you have bought it. Did you buy in Tontine , in indivision, or is it in one name only? Are you married (to each other)?

The fact that your notaire advised against is interesting, but only with full facts is it possible to give an opinion. 

[John Brown]

[quote user="John Brown"]

The exchange rate WILL continue to go up over the next few months. Me and David are best mates, and Nick's OK too.

[/quote]

Didn't I say it would ......... best rate for over a year today 1.194 at mid day and climbing

Gordon's Brother ( only joking ) JB

[woolybanana]

If you decide to make a French will,  do get it registered; The cost in minimal and it tidies up loose ends. The notaire will do it for you.

[JeanS]

Thanks Parsnips. We bought the house 6 years ago. Unfortunately our French was not very good at the time and the estate agent who was supposed to translate didn't turn up when we signed the Sale agreement. Is it possible to find out whether there was an 'En Tontine' clause inserted? We are not married to each other and since we retired do not spend more than 4/5 months a year in the house.

[parsnips]

[quote user="JeanS"]Thanks Parsnips. We bought the house 6 years ago. Unfortunately our French was not very good at the time and the estate agent who was supposed to translate didn't turn up when we signed the Sale agreement. Is it possible to find out whether there was an 'En Tontine' clause inserted? We are not married to each other and since we retired do not spend more than 4/5 months a year in the house.[/quote]

Hi,

       Look at the copy of the "Acte de vente" which you have. If there is no mention of the word "Tontine" anywhere in it look for the word "Indivision" .   My bet would be that you bought in "Indivision" , which means that you each own 1/2 the house (unless you specified some other split --which you would remember).

      As you are not married , leaving your halves to each other is not a practical option as your children are entitled to an irreducible share , and the remainder (the quotité disponible)would if left to your partner, be taxed at 60%.

     If there was a Tontine clause , then the surviving partner (and ultimately his/her children) would take the house entirely.

     As things stand (if in Indivision) on the death of one partner , his /her children would inherit his/her half in equal shares , in the absence of a french will; you could make wills varying the proportion going to each (of your own ) children, but a will leaving to anybody else is fairly pointless (see above).

    If you both get on well with all the children I suggest you discuss with them the possibility of accepting this outcome, and allowing the survivor to enjoy the undisturbed use of the house, possibly in return either for a lump sum payment or a rent as set out in an English Will. Or possibly you can agree that the survivor and the deceased's children will share the use .

    If , however, you do not all get on well, you would probably be better selling the house , and using the income from the proceeds to rent a french house.

     I have assumed that you have reasons to wish not to marry, as that would open up more satisfactory solutions.

EDIT: I've just looked back at your original post and see your partner is estranged from his children. This poses a big problem as there is no way he can disinherit them from their rights in his part of the house .  One way out (but quite costly) would be for him to sell you his 1/2 of the house --this would have to be done via a notaire , with fees and taxes paid , but as UK residents you can easily reimburse him the money paid to you, in the UK .

     

[JeanS]

Parnsips

Many thanks for your reply. I will look on the Acte de Vente when we return to the UK.

[PaulT]

Following the sudden and early death of my sister in law, my wife and I found out some interesting facts about UK inheritance when there is not a Will.

My BiL and SiL had decided that the BiL would die first and therefore put all savings and the house in to just the SiS name. Unfortunately, the dying plans did not work out and it was then discovered that only a certain amount would go to the BiL the rest was legally the childrens. We had always assumed that it would all go to the survivor.

We therefore visited a solicitor in the UK and had mirror Wills drawn up. There was also the case of the property in France. We therefore contacted the Notaire who handled the buying of the house. We met with him, he perused the English Will, concluded that the French one could be constructed to give the same outcome as he had also setup the marriage regime immediately prior to signing the Acte du Vente. He sent us what we had to write and all for 90 Euros - even with a bad exchange rate a great deal cheaper than the English solicitor.

So my advice - get the Wills sorted - use solicitors, there are some horror stories about DIY Wills. Whoever survives does not want the problems that my BiL has had.

Paul

 

[Chat Noir]

I know this thread is over 6 months old but have just been reading through it - and a similar thread - to try and find some answers to my questions.

Although similar to other posters (in as much as my OH and I have not children from our union but OH has - now grown-up - children from previous marriage) our situation is unique from those previously discussed here in that I am the sole owner of our property here in France.

So if, under the laws of nature (being 20+ years older than me), my OH went first, would his children still have any lay to claim on what is effectively my property?

And what if we went together (i.e. in an accident)?

An interesting conundrum...

CN

[parsnips]

[quote user="Chat Noir"]I know this thread is over 6 months old but have just been reading through it - and a similar thread - to try and find some answers to my questions.

Although similar to other posters (in as much as my OH and I have not children from our union but OH has - now grown-up - children from previous marriage) our situation is unique from those previously discussed here in that I am the sole owner of our property here in France.

So if, under the laws of nature (being 20+ years older than me), my OH went first, would his children still have any lay to claim on what is effectively my property?

And what if we went together (i.e. in an accident)?

An interesting conundrum...

CN[/quote]

Hi,

     Provided you have not changed your marriage regime to a french " communauté "regime, then you are treated as being in the french "separation des biens" , therefore you each own those assets in your sole names and joint assets 50/50.   Your (deceased) spouse's children would have no claim on your house.

     As for dying together in an accident, there are methods in french known as the "theorie des comourants" based on very old law and seen as poorly adapted to life today.

     Often the courts are called on to rule in these cases but briefly;

      If it can be proved that one of the spouses survived the other even by seconds, they are deemed to inherit from the pre-deceased. If no witnesses or other evidence can be found then each spouse's succession will be dealt with without involving the other as an heir. In other words your husbands estate would go to his children and your estate (including the house) to your nearest blood relatives (or according to any will you may have made). One possible exception to this is that where one of the co-deceased has children they may be allowed under the rules of "representation" to inherit what their parent would have inherited had he been the second to die.

     If you are really concerned about this (bearing in mind that you would be dead when it was decided) you should talk to a good english-fluent notaire.     

[Chat Noir]

Many thanks for the quick response, parsnips.

As you alluded to, French law is such a complicated system that we will be getting advice from a notaire on this.

Merry Christmas!

CN