Letter From Police Lost And Found

[suein56]

Chancer wrote : Sue, in your circumstances what difference would it have made that the handshake was done and the money exchanged in France?

It's a question of establishing ownership of a car that you want to sell.

The problem arrived when the fonctionnaire at the tax office would not let the seller have a quitus fiscal as the address on the V5 did not match with where she was currently staying. So, she had to register it here herself and then she could sell it to me when it was on French plates.

If she had lied and declared that she still lived in the UK then she might have got away with it but she would have found it difficult to produce the correct/up-to-date paperwork for an address she was no longer living at.

Sue

[Chancer]

Sue, had it been sold in the UK even in a notional sense I'm not sure what  paperwork you would have required other than the V5 and a signed dated bill of sale, do you need a quittas fiscal when you are registering a car you have bought in another EU country or only when you are bringing in your own vehicle? I have only done the latter and only one time over a decade ago.

 

It does not sound like Mr Panda has broken any laws, what could he have done any differently other than being aware that using the words UK address, UK registered car and French resident  in the same sentence would be like a red rag to a bull?

 

I would be tempted to take a punt on the vehicles condition and pay out the €300 but only to register it in the UK, if that hurdle could be overcome then it would be plain sailing to register it in France but I doubt you want to go through all this again!

[andyh4]

Yes you do need a QF to register a car in France even if you bought it abroad.

I think the twists and turns of the discussion show the complexity of moving vehicles across the EU.

[Chancer]

Wont be a problem for UK vehicles after March 2019.

 

Thanks for the info Andy.

[BritinBretagne]

If you sold the car in the UK and went through the basics required it has nothing to do with you. I would just reply to the letter enclosing a copy of your bill of sale and leave it at that. The confusing part of this tale is that although the car was sold in the U.K. the buyer was a French resident and the seller obviously has connections to France as well. Is there no requirement to inform the DVLA when you sell a car?

[Chancer]

I am years out of date, others may know better, it used to be that you gave a tear off slip to the new owner and sent the rest off filled out to the DVLA, that way your behind was covered, the problem is that a French resident will need the V5 to matriculate the vehicle so it usually does not happen in the prescribed fashion, it does somewhat leave the seller exposed but more likely to (mis)use of the vehicle in the UK.

 

The problem will disappear in March 2019

[Loiseau]

QUOTE MR PANDA

“Should I ignore it? I wouldn't mind having the car back as it was superb when I sold it and it's worth far more than the €300 they seem to require. ”

END QUOTE

Hello Mr Panda,

I know nothing about the stuff the others are going on about, but anything that arrives out of the blue requiring money rings alarm bells... Could it possibly be some sort of scam masquerading as a communication from the police?

[Mr Panda]

I don't think it's a scam but the buyer sent me several lots of forms to sign after he returned to Paris, so I assume he failed to register it and carried on using it for 2 years. I'm not sure how he got away with that? All I did was send a green slip to DVLA to say the car was permanently exported and enclosed a letter with the buyers details.

The use of Internet advertising places a shop window to the world, so it's not unusual to get foreign interest on a rare and desirable item for sale.

[nomoss]

If you haven't already done so, you can check the status of the car as far as DVLA is concerned here [url]https://www.gov.uk/get-vehicle-information-from-dvla[/url]

If they have recorded it as having been exported, the Export Marker field will say "Yes"

[Chancer]

A good idea, in theory it should be relatively easy for the last registered keeper to re-register it on its original UK plates.

[andyh4]

I think I maybe see where the problem may have started Mr Panda.

If you sold it in the UK, you did not export it. You should have returned the registration documents to DVLA showing it as sold. It was for the buyer to declare the export.

If as seems likely the car is still on its UK plates, as far as DVLA is concerned you are the last registered owner.

[woolybanana]

What is so special about this car, you seem to have been very attached to it if you are thinking of buying it back from the gendarmes?

[alittlebitfrench]

Where is it in Paris....or has it been towed ?

If you had posted a month ago I would have gone down and had a look.

If it has been parked in the street I dare say that the front and the back won't look to pretty. If was left in gear I don't think the gearbox will be that great either. You gotta love Paris for parking.

[nomoss]

[quote user="andyh4"]I think I maybe see where the problem may have started Mr Panda.

If you sold it in the UK, you did not export it. You should have returned the registration documents to DVLA showing it as sold. It was for the buyer to declare the export.

If as seems likely the car is still on its UK plates, as far as DVLA is concerned you are the last registered owner.[/quote]

I don't agree that is how the problem was started. If the car is recorded on the DVLA database as exported from the UK, the DVLA have no further interest in it unless it is returned to the UK, and have even less if it is in France.

The French authorities will have obtained Mr Panda's address from DVLA, but provided he has a bill of sale signed by the buyer he is not responsible for the car.

The buyer could not declare the export, as it was not registered in his name, and as a non resident in the UK he could not do this. He needed the V5C to import the car into France.

I have declared three vehicles as exported, to remove the requirement for Continuous Registration. One is in my garage for spares, another was sold to a Casse, to whom I gave the V5C, and I imported the third into France in 2013, and last year sold it to a French man who exported it to Japan.

Thee details of all three are still on the DVLA database, and all have Export Markers, despite the 2 of the V5Cs being surrendered as required.

I assume this is to facilitate the vehicle's being registered again in the UK if they return there.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Mr Panda"]The car was sold in the UK to the Paris resident.[/quote]At least three pages of this thread could have been saved if you had made that clear in your opening post !

If you informed DVLA at the time of sale then the car was nothing more to do with you from that moment on and is nothing more to do with you now - and that includes fines or bills etc. from France for towing or disposal. Curious how they got hold of you though as if they had asked DVLA they would have told them that it was notified as sold for export 2 years so maybe the V5, or other paperwork with your name and address on, was left in the car when it was abandoned.

That said submitting the V5 export tear off is only a statement of intent and not fact. The way I understand it's supposed to work is that the receiving licensing authority (France) returns surrendered V5's to DVLA which acts as proof that the car has been registered here and it's receipt of those which triggers the export marker you will find beside a car if you query it on the DVLA website. I say 'supposed to' because from my own personal experience of importing cars whether the export marker appears or not seems to be virtually random !

BTW who's name is on a V5 is completely irrelevant to registering in France. For the QF You need to provide a sale receipt, proof of ID, and proof of address in France.

You don't need the V5 at all in fact, a Certificate of Permanent Export will substitute for it and being issued to you personally by DVLA is actually a more authoritative document.

[quote user="andyh4"]You should have

returned the registration documents to DVLA showing it as sold. It was

for the buyer to declare the export.

If as seems likely the car is still on its UK plates, as far as DVLA is

concerned you are the last registered owner.[/quote]

That is not so. When selling a car which is going for export the seller sends the signed tear off section to DVLA and gives the buyer the remainder of the V5, I've done it a dozen times !

A foreign buyer cannot 'declare export'.

[nomoss]

[quote user="AnOther"]

That said submitting the V5 export tear off is only a statement of intent and not fact. The way I understand it's supposed to work is that the receiving licensing authority (France) returns surrendered V5's to DVLA which acts as proof that the car has been registered here and it's receipt of those which triggers the export marker you will find beside a car if you query it on the DVLA website. I say 'supposed to' because from my own personal experience of importing cars whether the export marker appears or not seems to be virtually random !

[/quote]

I don't think it's the return of the V5C which triggers the Export Marker, as one of the vehicles which has an export marker is sitting in my garage, still with UK plates and V5C, and was marked as exported soon after I sent off the export slip.

I intended to import it, but the windscreen cracked right across when I sprayed a water hose onto it when it had been sitting in the sun. A new glued-in windsceen with fitting cost more than I paid for the car, so I kept the car for parts. I have another similar model for parts, so may try to remove its windscreen if get around to it, but I'm not sure I would be successful.

[BritinBretagne]

A vehicle is marked as exported once the DVLA receives the permanent export slip. If it is returned to the U.K. without being registered in another country it will need to be re-registered before being used in the UK.

[andyh4]

ANO wrote:

 andyh4 wrote:

You should have returned the registration documents to DVLA showing it as sold. It was for the buyer to declare the export. If as seems likely the car is still on its UK plates, as far as DVLA is concerned you are the last registered owner.

That is not so. When selling a car which is going for export the seller sends the signed tear off section to DVLA and gives the buyer the remainder of the V5, I've done it a dozen times !

A foreign buyer cannot 'declare export'.

I fully accept your expert knowledge in this area. The fact however remains that Mr Panda declared that he had exported the car to DVLA and not that he had sold the car.

As far as DVLA records will be concerned he remains the last registered owner.

NoMoss

it is erroneous to say that DVLA are no longer worried once it is exported. They no longer track it - unless receiving s sales declaration from abroad - but they keep the records of owners.

[Chancer]

When selling a car which is going for export the seller sends the signed tear off section to DVLA and gives the buyer the remainder of the V5, I've done it a dozen times !

Is it the opposite of that for a sale to a UK buyer? i.e; you send the bulk of the V5 off and the buyer gets a slip? I ask because I have taken a French pal to the UK to buy cars twice and each time the seller wanted to send off the V5 and not give it over and at that time we needed the V5 for matriculation.

[nomoss]

[quote user="andyh4"] .......... You should have returned the registration documents to DVLA showing it as sold. It was for the buyer to declare the export. .............[/quote]

I take it you are speaking from experience and have actually done this when you sold a UK registerd vehicle to a non-UK resident intending to take it to their own country.

Did they successfully register it there when they reached their home country, please?

[andyh4]

Nomoss I am taking it that you are being deliberately tendentious. I have already accepted from ANO's post that I was wrong in detail.

HOWEVER if the seller had declared the vehicle as sold (which it was) and not exported (which he did not do) it might well have been different when the French authorities asked about the vehicle - or do you not agree?

[nomoss]

[quote user="andyh4"]Nomoss I am taking it that you are being deliberately tendentious.

[/quote]

 

Too right I am. You are posing as someone who has experience of selling UK cars for export.

Why do you go to such trouble to try to imply what you said was correct except "in detail", in spite of being completely wrong?

You remind me of a certain Boris.

You said you accepted ANO's knowledge, but then went on to say that Mr Panda was wrong in doing what ANO did.

I put it to you that you have no experience in the matter and are talking theory - your theory.

You also misquote me. I did NOT say the DVLA are no longer worried once it is exported, I said "the DVLA have no further interest in it unless it is returned to the UK"

[quote user="andyh4"] I have already accepted from ANO's post that I was wrong in detail.

HOWEVER if the seller had declared the vehicle as sold (which it was) and not exported (which he did not do) it might well have been different when the French authorities asked about the vehicle - or do you not agree?[/quote]

If you read his posts, you will see that the seller did, in fact, advise the DVLA, by letter, that he had sold the car, so your postulation, and whether or not I agree with it, is pointless [:D]

[AnOther]

Since I've always been the buyer and never had any problems with registering cars here I've been speaking from personal experience however having looked further into it I've found this which is from the horses mouth and which proves that we are all remiss in one way or another.

What to do if you are selling your vehicle privately to someone that does not have a GB address

It would appear therefore that in following the procedure in the document Mr Panda was a step ahead of us all along and as a result is free and clear of any responsibility for the car.

EDIT: Sections 6 & 10 of the V5 referred to are the new keeper details and new keeper supplement.

[BritinBretagne]

... and he will have a letter from the DVLA confirming that he is no longer the owner.

[nomoss]

Thank you for the useful link to the new instructions, ANO.

As you say, it confirms that Mr Panda followed the correct procedure when he sold his car to a French resident[:)]

I notice that the leaflet is dated 4/11, which corresponds with the the introduction of the red V5C/2 in 2011/12, following the theft of many thousands of V5C forms.

The leaflet was originally only sent out with a newly issued V5C/2 certificate when a car was first registered or changed hands, but after 2016 was sent to everyone renewing their Vehicle licence.

So these new instructions only came into effect at some time after 2011, although not necessarily when the new certificate came into being, and no-one selling a car with a V5C would know that the previous instructions, printed on the V5C itself, were no longer valid.

It seems then, that no-one would have been remiss in not observing these rules before some time in 2011, and not necessarily even then, as they would have followed the printed instructions on the registration document, not having any reason the think the rules had changed..

This also explains why my vehicles were marked as exported in 2008, shortly after I sent off their "Section 11's", as I correctly followed the printed instructions on the V5C.