My guests have guests

[Clair]

Hi

2 young Belgian couples arrived as expected on Sat for 1 week. Yesterday afternoon, one one them drove out and returned later followed by a car with another couple, also from Belgium.

This morning all cars are still here and evidently, the "guests" have spent the night... The property sleeps a max of 6, so this part of the contract has not been breached (although one couple has a 3 months-old baby!), but no-one has mentioned anything and I am feeling slightly alarmed.

I am concerned that if I ask the "booker" anything, she might take it wrongly (she was rather abrupt on arrival, but I had put it down to a long drive) and the property might suffer as a result. On the other hand, the guests were not listed on the booking form and that is in breach od the contract...

How do you think I should handle it?

Wait till Saturday?

Not say anything?

I know it's early days, but I want to be prepared... I have €450 cash as security deposit...

Urgent suggestions required please...

Thanks

Clair

[Lori]

We had a similar problem with one of our guests bringing in all kinds of other guests (caravans, etc.).  From that moment forward our contract states that ALL  persons staying in the gite must be named on the contract - it gives a special place for them to do this.  It also states that only those named guests will be accommodated.  We do go on to say that having friends over for dinner or a swim is fine.  However, all guests must sign the POOL RULES form and there are to be NO children, of any age, on the property.  We learned the hard way that you have to state things to the bone or you can expect anything.

As for what to do, it depends.  You don't say how your contract reads.  Do you accept children of any age?  At 3 months, I doubt the baby will be much of an issue as long as the parents follow their responsibilities.  Do you ask for the names of all who will occupy the gite?  If you do, then you have every right to ask the guest if their guests intend to stay further on.  If you don't, you may just be learning a tough lesson.  Change your contract.

I suppose I would just endure and change the contract as it isn't fun to have a run in with a guest.  But, that would have to be your decision.

Good luck.

[Clair]

Thanks for your reply Lori.

I too ask all that the guests are named on the booking form and the contract does state that "the people staying should be as listed on the booking form".

I even enquired at the outset, as the enquiry had been for 5 people and only 4 had been listed on the booking form. That's when I was informed about the baby...

The extra car has now gone and there is a full ashtray on the outside table, even thought the gîte is clearly stated as "non-smoking"...

I am getting all sorts of "what if..." popping up in my head.

I know it's unproductive, but what if the place reeks of tobacco? What if the other guests return?

I have never had to confront anyone about any situation before, as all previous visitors have behaved perfectly. This is all new territory to me...

Clair

[Lori]

If you do ask that all occupants of the gite are named on the contract, and additional guests show up and stay overnight, then I believe you have every right to mention this to them.  Also, as for smoking, I think you have to be REALLY specific on this one.  We state that our property is a NON-SMOKING property.  Smokers are allowed to smoke on the terrace, but are asked to put out their buts in the ashtray as this is an EXTREME fire risk area.  We also state in the contract that any signs/scents or actual witnessing of smokers in the gite will result in the owner's right to ask guests to leave and a charge for professional cleaning could be levied at the right of the owner.  We make this really really clear.  We have seen a couple of guests' guests smoking on the terrace, but none of our actual clients have ever smoked.

Perhaps your guests smoked outside?  Do you state that smoking on the property is prohibited - anywhere on the property??  If so, you must leave a kind note reminding them of this taped to their front door.  If you do this, you might mention the occupancy issue too.  I have had to leave notes for folks too - on separate issues, but serious things.  I found that they were amicably received, but who knows.

I think you said they are here for only one week right?  It will go by quickly and if you leave the smoking note, I doubt you will find a problem in the gite... 

 

[Russethouse]

I think the fact that the ashtray on the terrace was full signifies that the guests did not smoke indoors and were responsible about where they put out the cigarettes.....hopefully!

I used to think it was a legal requirement to have the names of all guests, I certainly have had to show my passport in hotels which makes me wonder if a) I look particularly dodgy, b) its only in hotels c) its changed since the event of the EU ?

[GRT17]

Gay, having met you the answer has to be a)

seriously to answer the original posting I agree with most of the replies above. I would definitely not be happy if guests invited friends to occupy spare beds without informing me or worse still if the friends were dossing down on the sofas.

I think we all have to make the rules very clear.

Good luck

Gill

[Russethouse]

Yes, and according to another forum member I look 60 or above, old AND dodgy

[Clair]

"To answer the original posting I agree with most of the replies above. I would definitely not be happy if guests invited friends to occupy spare beds without informing me or worse still if the friends were dossing down on the sofas.

I think we all have to make the rules very clear."

Thanks for your reply.

I think I have already made the rules clear in the Terms & Conditions, but I do not know if and how I should tackle the breach:

They have definitely had unlisted guests overnight.

If the now departed guests show up again, I will say something along the lines that "visitors are fine, overnight guests are not welcome"... but I will keep my fingers crossed they do not show up again, as I am certainly NOT looking forward to the departure check-up...

Any suggestions?

Clair

PS: they have smoked, but I agree that the ashtray being left outside added to the very young baby tend to indicate this was done outdoors, as per our rules. I will find out for sure on Saturday.

[Eslier]

This sort of thing baffles me somewhat. Let's just forget about any rules you might have made up for a moment. If your property sleeps six, the guests have paid the full price for the property and there are only six people staying there - what exactly is the problem ? It doesn't seem too much to get worked up about.

Now back to the contract issue. Why do you feel it is necessary to have the names of all the guests listed on the booking form ? From a contractual point of view, it is beneficial to make it clear that the contract is with one single named person. That way there is no doubt that everything and everyone is one persons sole responsibility and that person is solely liable for any damage etc. If you start to muddy the water making everyone jointly responsible then in an extreme case you might have to take them all to court if they trash the place. Much better for it to be a one to one contract.

My advice is don't let it worry you. No harm is being done and they'll all go home at the end of the week ! It really isn't worth the stress - open a bottle of wine and relax.

[Poppy]

 I agree with Eslier, dont worry two people can often do more damage than six. I'm sure it will be OK and you do have the deposit.

Jan

Lost in the Lot

[Russethouse]

How many did you supply bedding/towels for ?

Frankly I think its entirely normal and desirable to want to know the names of all the gite occupiers - although I think there should be a party leader for ease of communication.

I wouldn't bother to say anything to these guests unless they are rebooking, but I would ammend your T&C to whatever YOU feel most comfortable with.

[Russethouse]

How many did you supply bedding/towels for ?

Frankly I think its entirely normal and desirable to want to know the names of all the gite occupiers - although I think there should be a party leader for ease of communication.

I wouldn't bother to say anything to these guests unless they are rebooking, but I would ammend your T&C to whatever YOU feel most comfortable with.

[Clair]

[quote]How many did you supply bedding/towels for ?Frankly I think its entirely normal and desirable to want to know the names of all the gite occupiers - although I think there should be a party leader for ...[/quote]

I made 2 beds up and supplied towels for 4 as requested.

In reply to Eslier and Mikejan, it's an issue of trust.

When a booking is made, it specifies that certain people will be staying at the property. If other people arrive and stay, without a word being said about it (I live next door and they drove past me with their friends following), it raises a question of trust in my mind.

Yes, the property can welcome 6 people and they have paid to rent it for a week, but it does not give them licence to freely invite their mates as well.

And if they can can do that and not even mention it, it does not make me trust them.

Clair

[1938]

I sort of agree and disagree... while doing up our house we always stayed in a 3 bedroom gite...and only 2 of us. We did have people to stay, but always had the curtesy to ask our hosts if this was ok and it never was a problem...in fact they have gained from this as have repeat bookings from our friends...and theirs too. Word of mouth goes a longer way than a flashy website.

We have become close friends with the French owners, and last year when the gite was booked , they let us stay in their house and they stayed in their camper van!! boy were we embarassed...but they are so nice even though now we can stay in our own house... they know we tell friends to stay there as our house is a bit of a squat.

They gain and so do we..ironically we have never broken anything in the gite..but did in their house!!..glasses and a breadboard but we replaced these and no problem.

[GRT17]

[quote]I made 2 beds up and supplied towels for 4 as requested.In reply to Eslier and Mikejan, it's an issue of trust.When a booking is made, it specifies that certain people will be staying at the property....[/quote]

So what did the extra guests do for bed linen? Did they bring their own sheets or sleeping bags? or did they "manage" without?

I think I would be asking whether the mates are staying on and suggesting that extra bed linen might be required.

Clair, I agree, it's a matter of common courtesy and in this case it seems to be sadly lacking. As you live next door they really have no excuse.

When you re-vamp the booking form make sure that it says that you must be advised if extra guests join the party.

bon courage

Gill

[Clair]

[quote]I sort of agree and disagree... while doing up our house we always stayed in a 3 bedroom gite...and only 2 of us. We did have people to stay, but always had the curtesy to ask our hosts if this was ok...[/quote]

And THERE lies the difference: you asked, they didn't.

The unlisted guests did not have bedding with them, so I assume they slept in the spare bedroom on the unmade bed (with mattress cover) with the spare blankets for cover. Unless they opened the (locked) linen chest...

Previous paying visitors here have had guests and we have invariably agreed because they'd had the courtesy to ask. It gave the opportunity to ask relevant questions (how many people? How often? how many children?) and "set boundaries" both parties knew were acceptable.

Not in this case. So far, our visitors have spent most of their time indoors (weather is quite cool here at the mo) and we have not had any opportunity for any chit-chat on the terrace or by the pool...

Thanks for ALL your comments. I will make the position clearer in the "welcome" book for next year.

Clair

[Alexis]

You are a lot calmer than me Clair.  I would have been round that first night and thrown them out on their ear.  Bloody cheek.

I am going to have to learn to calm down!  I used to be so patient too

[Poppy]

Sorry Clair didnt mean to sound flippant in last posting, just wanted to try and make you feel a bit better. There is always one every season. Did they know you lived on site?

Jan

[Jhc]

Hi - if you go back a year you will see that I had a posting asking for help in a similar situation last Summer.  We had closed the 2 attic bedrooms of 1 of our gites and reduced the price to make it a 2 bedroom property sleeping maximum of 5 as we were more comfortable with t he smaller number in that particular cottage - the family of 5 that were were in it had the grandmother to stay for a week as a sixth person and we were livid.  I think the gist of the answers I got on the forum were not to get too worked up about it.  However, we did get worked up as we did not like being lied to, ie the guests including grandma saying that she was having B and B in the village when she clearly was not!  'Fraid that in the end it led to a nasty confrontation when I spotted grandma 'sneaking' in at 10.30 pm.  They admitted 'breaking the rules' and said that 2 of the children were sleeping in 1 bed to make way for grandma.  We had to compromise in the end as I could hardly turf grandma out at what was by then 11.00pm  However, we tightened up the booking conditons considerably after that and I clearly state that the cottage sleeps 5 and that no one can sleep there without being named on the booking form and that non-residents cannot use the pool etc.  However, I did insist on having grandma's home address for that night as I feel it is important to have the home address of everyone sleeping in our properties (I think if there was a fire etc you could be regarded by French authorities as being negligent if you did not have home address of everyone sleeping in your property.)

We have had no problem this year - probably for you it is the underhand nature of your customers sneaking others in without telling that really irks you, as it was for us.  However, after our bad experience I did hear of a 'professional' letting organisation in France who threatened to bring in the French equivalent of baliffs to turf extra customers out, after giving an initial warning - which worked effectively, apparently)   Not sure what I would do if it happened again - I would not be too bothered at all if they were not sleeping more than the capacity of the cottage and everyone had a bed - simply ask politely for names and addresses - but if they were over capacity then I would probably confromt at an early stage.  Good luck

[Missy]

I use to charge a basic price/per week to rent my cottage to cover electricity, rates, water etc... then depending on how many would come I would charge an extra £20 per person/per week and said it was to cover the laundering of any bed & bathroom linen used. So this way people had to tell me about their 'guests' and I never had complaints.

Now that my cottage is advertised by an agency (to stop fretting on : Is the deposit cheque for so and so that week arrived yet? or their last payment balance?...) the prices are all inclusive and therefore a little higher than my original prices but still people will ring me in advance and ask nicely if they are allowed to bring guests for a night or two or even simply just for a Sunday lunch or an evening meal.

How can I refuse when asked nicely...  

[Teamedup]

We have done this  regularly over the years. Never ever a problem.

Do I add this to the list of: totally restricted pool times, no dogs, no kids.

 

And there was me starting to feel a bit sorry for the giter people about those that do runners. But we are back again to some of you wanting to know how many restrictions should we have, like it is a good thing. Well as a client, you are putting me right off with these posts.

[Viv]

I agree with TU.

I would not hold with people sneaking guests into a B &B where you pay per person, per night. But with a gite , I thought you paid for the use of the building? Unless you give rebates for under occupancy, I don't think you can really complain if the gite is being used to its full capacity, by your paying customers.

[Clair]

[quote]I agree with TU. I would not hold with people sneaking guests into a B &B where you pay per person, per night. But with a gite , I thought you paid for the use of the building? Unless you give re...[/quote]

It's a non starter: if you agree to stay here, you agree to the T&C which state that "all persons staying must be named".

You cannot pick and choose which part of the T&C you are agreeing to respect... It's a whole and you accept it when you make your booking.

Paying for the rental does not give you licence to do want you want with the accommodation (sub-let it?).

The T&C are boundaries both parties agree to respect: I supply the accommodation, they agree to be bound by the contract.

Clair

[Clair]

[quote]Sorry Clair didnt mean to sound flippant in last posting, just wanted to try and make you feel a bit better. There is always one every season. Did they know you lived on site? Jan[/quote]

Don't worry, I did not take it this way!

I did not think this would happen:

all people staying in are named on the booking form

the T&C say "no more than 6 for insurance purposes"

we live next door and are friendly, open and welcoming!

I do remember Jhc's posting last year. although I was not aware of the outcome.

Clair

[Clair]

[quote]We have done this regularly over the years. Never ever a problem. Do I add this to the list of: totally restricted pool times, no dogs, no kids. And there was me starting to feel a bit sorry f...[/quote]

And I must say (smiley face here), I would think twice about having YOU here if you think that because you've paid, you can do whatever you like!

Clair

I once received an enquiry for a booking of 10 (the place has beds for 6, but could I not "put mattresses on the floor downstairs for the 2 boys, and 2 girls would share a single bed upstairs...?" they had not qualms about the rental price, but wanted to "share the costs with another family")