BREAKING NEWS ON EXPAT HEALTH COVER

[Deimos]

[quote user="krusty"]

how come the Dutch government can get a reply so quickly even it if it is only verbal ?

can they let the British government know how to do it [:)]

[/quote]

Sarkozy was going to tell Gordon when they met at Lisbon.  However Gordon did not turn up and Sarkozy had to talk to somebody and the Dutch were the only people who would talk to him.

Ian

[Tony F Dordogne]

Comparing notes about which country is implementing the changes more efficiently.

[cooperlola]

One of our contacts has just been told by the CPAM's English speaking helpline that the circular containing the new rules (14th December) has been received by CPAMs, "but that nothing could now happen until the government published a "Décret d'application".  That is, the guidlines about how to put the already published policies into action.  That document is not yet completed/published and she did not think the government felt any hurry to produce it as those affected are already in the system until the end of March.  She thought the document might be circulated at the end of February."

This goes a long way to explaining why local offices are still refusing to implement them.

Although this may give a little comfort to existing CMU payees, it does nothing for those who are in limbo following the expiry of their E106s at the weekend.  We are following this up.

[Rupert]

It seems incomprehensible that the original changes could be implemented so quickly but that the reversal requires a decree!

[Quillan]

Fortunately it does not effect me but I can say absolutely that two close friends, both of whom have been declaring their pension income and paying in to the system have both had letters (one on Friday and the other on Monday) telling them they are out at the end of March. One has been here just about 5 years and the other 7. They in turn know others who have also had letters but I can't say if that is correct as I don't know these other people. These letters are being generated from the Limoux office in Aude. I have given the links from cooperlola's website and suggested they read them and ask for an interview. It is a known fact that the head 'honcho' at Limoux does not like the English (more than one person who has had interviews with him have said this). He is probably rubbing his hands with glee every time the system produces a letter. Both my friends also have to pay till the end of March and they say on a pro rata basis the fee appears to be rather high compared to what they paid last year. You would like to think that people who are at least paying something would be the last out and those that pay nothing the first.

[cooperlola]

It makes you want to weep, doesn't it?

We need to continue to push the UK and French governments to at least implement the rules they have hammered out between them.  We are writing back to the Ambassador along these lines in response to his letter

http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/messages_recd/letter_ukembassy_20_12.htm

Also, please don't let Jim Murphy wash our hands of us now.  Recent events have taught us that he does respond if enough people push our point, so please keep posting on his blog. 

http://blogs.fco.gov.uk/blogs/jim_murphy/archive/2007/12/17/15478.aspx

[Quillan]

How strange, my friends ears must of been burning. He called me about 10 minutes after I posted to tell me he had finally managed to get through on the number given on the French government website who's URL is on Coop's website, it's only take two and a half days. The lady who answered (in perfect English, not you Coops was it?) said take no notice, it's all wrong. A document will be sent to all CPAM's in the next two weeks (like yeh) to say that if you are in already you are in forever, the guy (in Limoux) is a fool. The best thing was my mate said "would you mind phoning him, I have his number, because a few of these letters have gone out and caused many people a lot of problems". Now I only thought 'jobsworths' were in the UK but it seems not, the reply my mate got was, wait for it...... "not my job". Have these people been on a NHS course on customer care [:@] .

Still ever the cautious he (my mate) said he will do nothing and wait and see although he has sent off a copy of the letter and a transcript of his phone call to French Connections (why I don't know but there you go).

[cooperlola]

Wonderful, isn't it?  This is government departments the world over, as far as I can see.  The fact that a phone call or a proper letter to all the CPAMs would cut down the phone calls to the helplines to miniscule proportions, and would calm the situation down exponentially is irrelevant, apparently.  Far better to keep everybody in suspense and waste everybody's time and effort in the meantime. Shambles doesn't begin to describe it.  I'm actually quite surprised (although greatly relieved) that nobody has done anything desperate to themselves while things get sorted.  It would be quite funny if it weren't such a serious matter for some.[:@]

[AnOther]

[quote user="cooperlola"]I'm actually quite surprised (although greatly relieved) that nobody has done anything desperate to themselves while things get sorted.[/quote]As far as you know Coops, as far as you know.......but I sincerely do hope you're right.

[cooperlola]

You are right of course Ernie.

We are getting more reports back from people who have found that the French Social Security department statement from Mid December is not being acted upon by the local CPAMs.  One person - a fluent French speaker - had a long talk to somebody in authority who again suggested that the instructions will not be implemented until further procedures are gone through and this could take months rather than weeks.  It is all very disturbing.  We are trying to find out more.

[cooperlola]

We have had a brief reply to our enquiry about the continuing delays to the implementation of the Health Department's December statement:

"The Embassy is still in regular contact with the French Health Ministry and is representing people's concerns regarding access to the French healthcare system for early retirees from other EU countries already residing in France.

We understand that a revised statement "to clarify the situation for Brits already in France"  is due very shortly from the French Health Ministry, at which point we will update our website information and send you an email to inform you of the update. 

Kind regards

 

Press & Communications

British Embassy

Paris"

 

Hopefully the underlining (theirs, not mine), is significant.  We will continue to update you.

 

 

Edited by a moderator as the underlining wasn't showing in the post.

[bill k]

i must say i have had a few worries about the delay. i also have another problem, i have a letter , dated 18-10-07 saying i will receive a bill from URSSAF to make my payment for health care up to march 2008. This bill has never arrived and after ringing the english helpline 4 times and speaking to CMU, in person, on several occasions still nothing. All i am told is that i must wait for the decision to be made by the goverment. I do not want to send a cheque without a bill as the cheques seem to get lost.

Has anybody else the same problem?

bill k

[ams]

We got our bill which outlined the amount for the year ahead and how we could pay it. In the past we have paid quarterly. In late december we got the first quarters notice and paid it, the cheque was processed by the bank as evidenced by our december bank statement.

 

ams

[cooperlola]

Yes, me, Bill.  And I've heard from another person today in the same position. I'm just hanging on to my cash and I'll pay when the bill eventually comes, but it is yet another worry in all this mess.  I would certainly not pay anything "on spec."  If it's any consolation, they are still paying me - I got a refund for my visit to the dentist last week.

[Owen]

Hello Bill,

Nothing to worry about. If you have not yet received the demand from URSSAF you should not pay or attempt to pay. I am not promoting dishonesty. It is just you have to send off a cut-off slip with your cheque to URSSAF and this identifies you via account number/social security number and the like. But if you do send a cheque not only will it be cashed but you still may receive another demand, in due course, because the slip has not been included.

A point about help lines. They are useless in a very dynamic situation like this. They are not too bright for the rest of the time either in my opinion. They can only quote from a script, which if totally changing, means that anything they have to say is about much use as a chocolate teapot.

Regards

Peter Owen

[email protected]

[cooperlola]

You have a point about helplines, but they turn out to be not all bad, Owen.  For those in the Caen  area, here is some very interesting information which was passed on to us today from another website:

"I then contacted the English CPAM again and informed then that the advice they gave on the card was not correct  etc, having once again told them the full story they then stated that the removal of my card and de-activation was not legal in the system and on my behalf would inquire further, this evening I received a call (from Estelle English CPAM line) requesting I visit *** to pick up my card which will be reactivated to March awaiting further updates . A positive strike for once , I will let you know how my visit goes. If you have any dealing with the English speaking CPAM line a big thank you goes to Estelle who was polite efficient and very diligent in helping (a first since the start of this saga)."

[Jazzer]

Slightly different tack to the above posts. I went to see my Doctor on Wednesday, my E106 having expired on the 5th. He asked for my card and I explained that owing to a new law I had to return my card, He had not heard about this change, and as I had the card in my possession he used it to identify me and said the card was still current. The same when I went to the Pharmacie. Again I explained the situation and although they too said it was current I paid cash and asked for the usual feuille de soins, in case there is a change of mind and we are allowed back in.

[cooperlola]

Jazzer, that is a good point.  If we may steal your idea, we will certainly suggest that those people now in "limbo" whilst the authorities sort themselves out, get and keep feuilles de soin - on the website.  Hope that's OK with you?[:)]

[Jazzer]

Yes of course, fine by me. It may just be possible to use them. Who knows.

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Quillan"]Fortunately it does not effect me but I can say absolutely that two close friends, both of whom have been declaring their pension income and paying in to the system have both had letters (one on Friday and the other on Monday) telling them they are out at the end of March. One has been here just about 5 years and the other 7. They in turn know others who have also had letters but I can't say if that is correct as I don't know these other people. These letters are being generated from the Limoux office in Aude. I have given the links from cooperlola's website and suggested they read them and ask for an interview. It is a known fact that the head 'honcho' at Limoux does not like the English (more than one person who has had interviews with him have said this). He is probably rubbing his hands with glee every time the system produces a letter. Both my friends also have to pay till the end of March and they say on a pro rata basis the fee appears to be rather high compared to what they paid last year. You would like to think that people who are at least paying something would be the last out and those that pay nothing the first.[/quote]

Quillan, are these the two who do not do French tax returns in France or another two?

I think its worth remembering there are two issues here, at the time of the mass booting out of non actifs in September, there was another little exercise taking place that of ensuring all those in the CMU were actually resident and this was simply proved by submitting a copy of the latest tax return, although some also used copies of carte de sejours etc.  However, it would appear that a number of people did not reply to the letters asking for this proof and may now be being excluded from the CMU for that reason alone.  Of course it was easy to overlook that requirement due to the other more pressing needs of retaining CMU mermbership, others chose not to, one because he thought it would identify him as inactif, despite the CMU being for inactifs!! Others because they could not or did not want to provide the residency proof as they had no tax returns.  So before we start labelling officials as jobsworths or fools, it might just be worth checking to see if those people who have been ejected from the CMU did comply with the proof of residency exercise first.

[cooperlola]

There was also the big problem of the "proof of residency" letters being sent out twice.  I for one responded to the initial letter (and yes, with all my tax returns etc) and got another saying I hadn't done this two months later (a phone call to my CPAM quickly confirmed that this was "a mistake" but it was a nationwide one).

If people chose not to comply with the letters asking for proof of residency, then tough if they get chucked out but I think Quillan has a point and that there are some officials (in regions where there are a lot of expats/immigrants and also - perhaps - the more right-wing ones?) who seem to have delighted in our plight - perhaps because they see a lot of cheating going on.  Their attitude is reflected by some of the British nationals who post on here too so is hardly surprising in the circumstances.  But in the main, I have seen a broadly sympathetic attitude towards us, even if it has been without "teeth" in most cases as the individual officials can do little to fight their own bureaucratic process.  I think the individuals on the ground get a pretty good impression of who is honest and who is not.

I, for one, am perfectly happy if the system weeds out those who don't pay their dues because we end up subsidising them.  I am quite happy to support those in genuine need (that's what a proper social welfare system should be doing) but not those who do everything to avoid paying up when they can afford it, thanks very much!

[Quillan]

Ron - Out of the two people I know personally one completes a French tax return (7 years) and the other does not (5 Years). The latter is ex services and has asked for a tax form on more than one occasion and has been told no because of his UK military pension is his only source of income and as it is taxed in the UK completing a French tax return is pointless. What he does do is to send his P60 from the UK every year to CPAM which he was told to do at his interview with them a few years back. The interview was with the same person who who 'throw' him out. Now I am led to believe that you have to complete a tax return even if you have a UK service pension (has to be taxed in the UK). The fact you declare the income and it can't be taxed is irrelevant but then the tax office in Limoux don't think so.

My comments about Jobsworth were aimed at the 'help line' person who in my book could have saved a few people in our area the grief and worry they are currently going through. If the person on the 'hot line' made a call to the guy at Limoux and told them the information they were giving out was wrong and to wait till the proper documentation was sent it might of helped, but know, it's not their job. I am afraid this attitude is very French and I have seen it many times before and it has happened to me with the Prefecture not talking to the Chambre of Commerce but that's a different story and not relevant to this thread.

[cooperlola]

The point is made regularly on here, Q, that a tax return is a necessity here, wherever you pay the tax, but the fact that some tax offices deny this fact (one suspects for an easy life?) and that - as per your friend's experience - CPAMs condone this by taking a UK P60 as evidence of income makes life very hard in this respect. Why wouldn't you take the word of the people who should be in the know here?  This happened to me.  My tax office said I owed nothing here (in spite of the fact that they signed my FD5 stating the precise opposite) and my CPAM asked for a P60 even though I was waving an Avis d'Impot at them with my RFR on it.  In both cases, I had to tell the officials concerned what the correct procedure was.  If I had not known, goodness knows what my "legal" status would be now. 

This is the problem, as I see it, for your friend who has not filled in the French tax return.  He has had poor advice, but how does he prove it if, now, somebody says "you haven't filed a tax return since you've been here, so your five years' residence was not legal. Go away, no CMU for you, mate!"  Because this is what I can forsee happening all over the place with the more recalcitrant local authorites.  How on earth does this person prove that they were acting on advice from the very same offices?

There has been a very distressing thread on here in the last few days from a widow who lost her husband in recent times, and it turns out that the same sort of thing has been going on.  How is she supposed to cope?

As I say, I have little sympathy for cheats but some people have been genuinely misled by those who should know better, and with the latest debacle, the consequences could be dire.  Some of the less sympathetic posters (and I don't mean you Ron as I do understand your point here) on here, would do well to think about this before sounding off about "scroungers" and "freeloaders" all the time.  They exist and should be weeded out, but many being caught in the crossfire are genuinely honest and upright citizens who have been trying to do their best and always intend, and have intended, to pay their way.  Some of them are suffering unnecessarily because of the messy and incompetent way in which this whole thing is being handled.  It's a cruel and unusual punishment in the circumstances and was totally avoidable, imo, if it had only be handled a little more sympathetically and with more notice and better communications.

[Pommier]

We had the usual letter saying that we'll be out in March, but I was wondering whether we should just wait for the authorities to sort themselves out or whether we ought to appeal. We've been here over 5 years and are on CMU. Another difficulty is that we'll be moving to a different region in early March.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="cheryla"]We had the usual letter saying that we'll be out in March, but I was wondering whether we should just wait for the authorities to sort themselves out or whether we ought to appeal. We've been here over 5 years and are on CMU. Another difficulty is that we'll be moving to a different region in early March.[/quote]Although I think the situation will be sorted for people like you, I still see no harm in doing a "belt and braces" job and appealing.  Also, CLEISS have asked us to tell everybody who has been rejected but who should not have been, to copy them in on the correspondance from your CPAM.

http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/latest_news/new_regulations_confusion_09_01.htm

They are keen to have more details about what is going on at local level, Cheryla.