Re: Latest Health care Entitlement discussion

[Tony F Dordogne]

Early retirement is a lifestyle choice, not an entitlement, people are allowed to retire early because they want to, alternatively, stay at work until statutory retirement age or later - if the rules here change, they change, difficult though that may be and I do have sympathy for those who have decided to move to France and now find themselves in difficulties.

It doesn't matter how long you worked for, that is just a non-argument. I started work on Romford Market three mornings and evenings a week and worked in my parent's business - catering, kitchens - for all the time I was at school from the age of 12, so I've been at work one way or another for 48 years, so what?  We all probably get fed up with work but if we have to do it to keep ourselves in the life style we want, so be it, whether we live in the UK or France.

Those of us living in France full-time chose to emigrate and live in another country, that host country has every right to change their rules and if that causes difficulties it's sad but it's the host country's right to do so.  The argument then seems to be whether the change can or should be made retrospective but health care costs are a fact of life when the E106 runs out and having to pay top up costs is part of living in France with an E106, E121 or whatever, you have to pay those costs, accept it and move on.

If you're economically inactive and are finding the changes in the rules OR the current system cause financial problems, become active and you don't have so much of a problem.  If anybody pre-retirement age is choosing not to work as a lifestyle choice and if they are then faced with difficulties, it seems that part of the answer may lay in their own hands.

Edited: to make the message less personal.

[Tony F Dordogne]

And you don't automatically get healthcare in the UK if you're resident there, for goodness sake, read everything, not just selective parts, Will's link explains a good deal more - even some European workers in the UK don't automatically get it and asylum seekers definately don't in many cases!

[makfai]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]And you don't automatically get healthcare in the UK if you're resident there, [/quote]

For people coming to reside in UK, please see Dept of Health policy at  http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Policyandguidance/International/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_4955314 

'Under the current Regulations, anyone who is taking up or resuming permanent residence in the UK is entitled to free National Health Service (NHS) hospital treatment in England.'

and

'Any person living here lawfully and on a settled basis is regarded as resident in the UK and therefore entitled to free primary medical services.'

and

'Regardless of residential status or nationality, emergency treatment given at Primary Care Practices (a GP) or in Accident and Emergency departments or a Walk-in Centre providing services similar to those of a hospital Accident and Emergency department is free of charge.'

As regards Asylum Seekers please see Dept of Health policy at  http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Policyandguidance/International/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_4955331

 

As someone once said 'for goodness sake, read everything, not just selective parts'

[Ron Avery]

The title of this thread is Healthcare in France, whilst it may interest some as to what Poles and  Rumanians etc get in the UK, under the current circumstances I for one am only concerned about what is happening to me in France.  Until there is a definitive statement by the French Government, not from English speaking CPAM, The Times, Connexions, Telegraph,  mate at the High Commission, spokesperson at the British Embassy then all this conjecture and pontificating is of no interest and serves no purpose other than alarm people with genuine future health insurance concerns.

 We started this with "No healthcare for EU citizens below the state retirement age and people were going to have their Carte Vitales seized",  through "no difference to anyone already in the system" and now it seems if you have been resident in France for five years (why 5 years?) you are OK, none of it backed by undeniable fact or legislation,

It strikes me that the French must have had some purpose in mind in changing the rules about healthcare, if indeed they are to be changed and that even in France you cannot just change state legislation at a whim or at a local level, so let's all wait and see what exactly the legislation says and then see the best course of action.  If the French do want to cut their health care bills, perhaps limiting the number of items on prescription might be a start!!

[Tony F Dordogne]

But that doesn't detract from the fact that ALL EU citizens DO NOT automatically get access to UK services, healthcare etc.  At the time of the expansion of the EU into Eastern Europe, Poles and other nationalities were - and still are under some circumstances - SPECIFICALLY excluded from receiving benefits of any kind in the UK.  There was a well publicised problem of single Polish and other nationals sleeping rough, after their work contracts had finished, in central London because they were excluded from access to healthcare, benefits and housing, their welfare eventually being funded by the ex-pat, second and third generation immigrants into the UK and the Polish Embassy paying for them to go back to Poland.

The point here is that when in the UK the immigrants, even those from the EU, are 'other'.  Here, we're 'other' and as Will said, the rules that the French government want to implement now aren't a million miles away from those the UK already uses - including those directed at EU citizens.

And, in the case of financial hardship, many of the 'others' in the UK will go to work.  As I've already said, choosing NOT to work is a lifestyle choice, especially if you're fit and able to do so.  Many immigrants to the UK manage to find themselves perfectly legitimate work with very limited English and can earn money legitimately even in areas of relatively high unemployment, they do the jobs the unemployed Brits choose not to do. 

Broadly, the fit, non-working, UK early-retired - under statutory retirement age, men and women - in France are middle-class and wouldn't be seen working in some of the menial jobs that other EU people do in the UK.  But, if you want or need the money, do what the Daily Mail (which is the biggest selling UK paper in our local French town) always exhorted people to do, follow Norman Tebbit and get on your bike!

[BJSLIV]

 so let's all wait and see what exactly the legislation says

At the risk of being pedantic we know what the new legislation says, what we are waiting for are the administrative instructions and procedures that will implement the said  law.

[cooperlola]

Tony, I agree.  We undoubtedly fall into the category of those described in your last paragraph (fit, non-working, I mean - leave the Daily Mail out of it!) and as such, we're not happy exactly, but ultimately willing to pay whatever it costs to stay here, because we can; and because we accept that things move on and that we are subject to the laws of France, even though we vote in the UK - it's just one of those things which happens when you change countries - things can't always be expected to remain the same.  When I was privatised (!) and lost my job back in the UK many moons ago, I cleaned houses, filled supermarket shelves and looked after people's animals - I would certainly do so again here if it were necessary.  I accept that I have been extremely lucky in that I could retire at 50 (and get an occupational pension) and so, fine.  Tough, but ultimately, OK, that's the way it goes.

The real worry is for those who have long term illnesses which don't make them exactly unfit for work but which make it very hard for them to find it.  They may be able to earn a few Euros but it will be a long drawn-out process for them before they can get enough hours work to qualify for the CMU again.  Even the able-bodied around here have trouble finding jobs. I have a friend locally who is 10 years younger than me and who has been signed on for nearly a year now - willing to take any job that is offered.  She has found a total of 30 hours work in all that time (and I don't mean a week - I mean 30 hours altogether!)  It isn't that simple - Norman Tebbit notwithstanding.

Mods : as somebody pointed out above, this is the info' thread and yet seems to have turned into the moral maze!  Should this all go in the "discussion" thread?

Edit : Cathy, thanks for pointing my error out - it was the mid-thread title-change which put me off!

[ali-cat]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs, fairness/unfairness of the changes people here are going to be affected to a greater or lesser extent and need to know if there is any scope for lobbying on our behalf :

Are EU nationals disproportionately affected.  One post suggested that US citizens will still be able to affilliate to CMU?

Although the changes are not specifically aimed at Brits - do they have a disproportionate impact on them?  Previous posts suggested that transfers to the French healthcare system from some member states are indefinite and not limited to 2 years as per the E106?

Is there an argument that the changes are disproportionate if they are unaffordable?  A difficult one this if those affected are capable of working or have assets;

What happens to those who are resident here on E121's due to incapacity should they lose E121 status due to either an arbitrary decision or adminstrative changes back in the UK? By definition they have an existing health condition which would not be covered by private insurance;

Likewise what happens to those with existing medical conditions (not in receipt of E121) or who have developed a medical condition while here and not capable of working. Is it proportionate that such people are left without any access to medical treatment?

If none of the above provides scope for challenge - Is there scope for challenging the retrospective application of the new regulations?

If we wish others to lobby on our behalf we need to give them some ammunition to lobby with.

Mr Cat

 

[Richard]

[quote user="Will"]

Realistically again, and putting it bluntly, is Britain likely to pay towards the health cover for those of its citizens who have chosen to abandon its shores for sunnier climes? I can't see it, and as an NI payer myself, I don't see why it should.

 [/quote]

Quite agree with you - or do you mean that it's OK for Britain to continue to use NI contributions to support those who've abandoned its shores clutching their E121's - and it's just 'everyone else' who shouldn't get anything.

I've been following this topic for some time now and am interested to see that it has effectively become divided into two camps. There are those for whom it was intended, genuinely worried about the impending changes to the healthcare system and how it will affect them, and those sitting smugly behind their E121's (for the time being??) telling the others that 'that's life' and, if you choose to live abroad, the government can do pretty much what it likes and that everyone should simply find a few extra 000's of Euros, pay up and think themselves lucky to be here.

Life is not, of course, quite as simple as that.

What has been taken away, or is likely to be taken away, CANNOT be replaced. No amount of money will buy private health insurance that will cover pre-existing conditions. Ongoing treatment is not covered, further complications are not covered, drugs are not covered. For many, if not most of those affected by these changes, this creates an insurmountable problem. It is not simply a question of swapping from 'State' to 'Private', it is a question of swapping from 'State' to nothing!!

I would be VERY interested to read the reactions of some of the contributors here if THEIR benefits were withdrawn in the manner that they have been for 'early-retirers'. I suspect that there would be considerably less 'understanding' if the French government ceased to accept the E121 on the grounds that the contribution that accompanies it is insufficient, or the UK stopped issuing them on the basis that 'if you choose to abandon its shores for sunnier climes' you're on your own - AND made it retrospective!!

Everyone affected by these changes thought that they were in a secure and continuing healthcare environment. They based their move to France and their budgets around their entitlement to become a contributing member of the French healthcare system - and don't forget, they weren't simply 'accepted' into the system, they were FORCED into it. There was no option. However, they are now being told that it was all a 'mistake' on the part of the French authorities and that this particular group of people should never have been allowed to join in the first place. If a mistake HAS been made, it has been made by the French authorities, no one else, and it is up to them to deal with it in such a way that innocent people aren't penalised - particularly over something so fundamentally important as healthcare. I agree that there is a case for not enrolling 'new' people into the system but I cannot, for the life of me, see how you can simply 'force out' everyone that you previously 'forced in' - and leave them high and dry.

For many people this is a life-changing, perhaps even a life-threatening situation, and should be recognised as such. What is needed here is advice, support and a plan of action for those who are affected - not unhelpful comments and patronising statements from those who aren't.

[cooperlola]

Mr Cat, I think that is why this kind of debate is very useful.  It helps everybody to decide what may or may not be a reasonable expectation, and which arguments do and do not hold water.  As you say, we need the right ammunition.  And then we need to find the right people to fire it for us.  Personally, I don't think my own case would hold a lot of water, but there are many who are in real hardship who are going to need help so in a way, I think we all have a moral obligation to make a noise about this in the right quarters, and fast.  There may be minor changes to the way in which the legislation is interpreted, but I think we all know pretty well by now which way this is going.

I have written to the Embassy, my MEP and my MP (the latter two whom I vote for, for goodness sake) - I suggest others begin to do the same, before it's too late and some genuine suffering begins for some.

[Russethouse]

I think the way forward re this issue and this forum is to start a new thread for those interested in lobbying to exchange information.

Started here: http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1029167/ShowPost.aspx

[Cat]

This is the discussion thread. General discussion and queries about the changes should be posted here.  Can I ask people posting here not to change the title of their posts, as this generates confusion about the purpose of this thread.

I've just posted into the "Info" thread to bring it back into the active threads view, as that is the place to post new legislation or information http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1/1029170/ShowPost.aspx#1029170

Thanks

 

[cooperlola]

Richard, to be fair there is a third group - those who have come here to work, who do so, and who genuinely contribute to the French system at the level which a French citizen would (Will is one, I think) - they probably have the moral high ground in all this really! And I can genuinely understand that they have less sympathy for those who have been lucky enough to retire early and do nothing, whilst the majority of people of their age (with long-term illnesses, and without) must continue to work until they reach state pensionable age, and have no choice in the matter.

[Richard]

Please don't think that I'm 'having a go' at anyone, or any particular group of people - I'm not. I fully understand that contributions are high for those who are working - we make 'self-employed' contributions ourselves. I do not expect to be affected by these changes, I am simply expressing concern for those people who have built a life here based around what they understood they were entitled to, were given (or rather, paid for), but which is now to be taken away from them, virtually on a whim. That's all.

[cooperlola]

The hardest bit to stomach is, I agree, that one came here being "forced" into the state system (and presumably did one's financial calculations based upon that), suddenly to be told it was a mistake!  If it genuinely was such, then those who came in good faith should feel justified in complaining and expecting those who made this error to put it right at their own expense, not that of the innocents who are caught up in this. 

My own genuine worry is for a couple of friends who have one year to run on their E106's.  He has both a heart condition and diabetes but is not considered sick enough for an E121, even though he was off sick for the last 18 months of his working life.  I cannot see what the future is going to hold for him and his wife as they have no property anywhere, just a pension and a rented home - and no hope of renting at UK prices now, either.  His occupational pension was perfectly adequate for the circumstances as they stood before this change, but private healthcare is completely out of the question - both cost wise and because it will not cover his ongoing conditions.  What on earth is going to happen to him and people like him?  That is the sad thing.

[Clair]

This is a (French) forum discussion on the subject.

It makes uncomfortable reading in parts, but clearly highlights how "pre-retired" foreigners are perceived:

http://www.bulle-immobiliere.org/

[memb]

Broadly, the fit, non-working, UK early-retired - under statutory retirement age, men and women - in France are middle-class and wouldn't be seen working in some of the menial jobs that other EU people do in the UK.  But, if you want or need the money, do what the Daily Mail (which is the biggest selling UK paper in our local French town) always exhorted people to do, follow Norman Tebbit and get on your bike!

---

It seems sad that some feel it necessary to make a personal dig, this is, after all, a discussion forum.    The previous dig was ignored "smacks of I fought for you in the war etc etc".   As stated before we expect nothing from France's coffer's, that would'nt be morally right.  I stated before that part of the reason was to fully retire, I am 68 and wife 56.    I choose not to explain why my wife was advised to take early retirement, that is our business.    We can assure you that we both ride our bikes...............to voluntary work to help a French organisation.

[Richard]

It seems sad that some feel it necessary to make a

personal dig, this is, after all, a discussion forum. The previous

dig was ignored "smacks of I fought for you in the war etc etc". 

I don't think that you need to apologise or to explain anything to anyone on here. My own experience is that, quite often, those who have most to say about what others should or shouldn't be doing are those least likely to be doing anything themselves.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Clair"]This is a (French) forum discussion on the subject.
It makes uncomfortable reading in parts, but clearly highlights how "pre-retired" foreigners are perceived:

http://www.bulle-immobiliere.org/
[/quote]Uncomfortable maybe, but mainly for the huge misconceptions amongst the French about what goes on amongst the non-French EU  citizens here, and how many have ended up in this position (ie they were told they were legally obliged to join the CMU, and that they could not legally have private health care.)  Clearly, the French popular press needs a bit of lobbying too!

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Clair"]This is a (French) forum discussion on the subject.

It makes uncomfortable reading in parts, but clearly highlights how "pre-retired" foreigners are perceived:

http://www.bulle-immobiliere.org/

[/quote]

I find most of the comments on that site really sad. We've been in and out of France since 1992, the last two and a half years as permanent residents and, although I don't know what our neighbours say about us once their front doors are shut, we've never met any of the sort of resentment face to face that is voiced on this site.

French friends whom we've known since the early days (caravanners do tend to stay in touch) have been nothing but friendly and very helpful to us.

Having put a large slice of capital into France and paying our taxes and dues in the same way as French people and complying with whatever the French laws say we should do we are starting to feel that our decision to retire here may have been wrong if this is the sort of resentment that ordinary French folk have against retiring foreigners.

[cooperlola]

Benjamin, one has just to be grateful that the French friends one has made, do not share some of the views on that forum.  Some are ill-informed and I guess only certain individuals who harbour resentment to those whom they perceive as being more comortably off than they are, have felt moved to post. They also forget that our retirement age is 5 years higher than that for many French employees who get to go at 60 - and in some cases earlier!

[Clair]

Benjamin,

These misconceptions are mostly held through ignorance and supported by envy or jealousy, as said by Cooperlola.

As you have found out, when people are faced with a real person rather than the image of Johnny Foreigner portrayed in the press, they are mostly very welcoming.

[Aly (used to be Charlotte3)]

From what I could make out the forum members seem to think that foreigners don't contribute at all rather than pay cotisations based on their (unearned) income. In fact, one of them points out that 8% of 0 is 0, so as usual some one's got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

Aly

[Aly (used to be Charlotte3)]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Benjamin, one has just to be grateful that the French friends one has made, do not share some of the views on that forum.  Some are ill-informed and I guess only certain individuals who harbour resentment to those whom they perceive as being more comortably off than they are, have felt moved to post. They also forget that our retirement age is 5 years higher than that for many French employees who get to go at 60 - and in some cases earlier!

[/quote]

I wsh I could retire at 65......I reckon I'll just keel over from old age while on the job.....if you know what I mean...

Aly

[Chris]

Aly said: From what I could make out the forum members seem to think that

foreigners don't contribute at all rather than pay cotisations based on

their (unearned) income. In fact, one of them points out that 8% of 0

is 0, so as usual some one's got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

(I wish I knew how to do that quote thing with a grey/mauve background all you experienced posters seem to manage!!)

Anyway, I think the point he/she is making that 8% of 0 declared to the Fisc is 0.  And this is the result, from anecdotal evidence, that some swindling Brits, playing the system, have caused or certainly helped prompt this problem we all face. 

The frustrating thing is that if the authorities would only accept  that many of us who run profitable gite enterprises or B&Bs, and work hard at it, would be happy to be considered as 'businesses' and pay whatever dues are required. Having followed all these dicussions for days now, and recovered from vertigo, I reckon France has done nothing wrong - yes, communication in large organisations can always be criticised, but in what matters, the proposals as far as we can tell, appear reasonable.  It is trying to get into line with EU law. I am becoming more and more persuaded that the real blame lies with our own government in not falling into line with common sense and spirit, if not the letter of EU law, and do as the Germans and Dutch do to ensure their citizens are protected in another EU country.  As always we are just pawns in a sordid game of politics being played by Westminster.  France will soon take presidency of the EU, so wait for some fun and games again as agriculture, economics and defence take centre stage.  I have yet to come across an MP who will take a battle he is unlikely to win.  I've had some experience with senior civil servants, and have yet to come across one  who won't run a mile and poke his own eyes out before making a decision - "... the trouble with you bl**dy army officers is that you always want to make decisions!'  Therefore, I will not hold my breath waiting for help from the UK government.  We have to face it, we are in a pickle and there may well be casualties, if the French government does not look again sympathetically at those who are already here, doing everything required, and expected, of a European citizen guest. 

I agree with others findings, and in all our dealings over the past 8 years, we have been shown nothing but understanding and real friendship. No doubt speaking French is a help, and entering into 'the spirit of things' wherever possible is always appreciated.  French people do not have a monoply on ignorance, and in my experience, are ready to say '....tiens! Je ne savais pas....'  

Sorry this is a bit long!

Chris