re the EU ,could this site help ?

[tigerfeet]

http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/front_end/index_en.htm

[Lehaut]

Thanks.  I have given them a try using our situation, they claim to reply in 8 days. Will keep you posted.

[Joshua]

I've submitted a question from the point of view that,

1. My right the join the French CPAM has been refused when my E106 expires

2. A pre-existing illness prevents me from getting fully inclusive insurance cover

Joshua

Well done for finding the site, by the way[:)]

[tigerfeet]

here is the question I sent ,and their reply

I retired early to france in 2006 , I joined the french health system with my e106 which runs out in jan 2008. the french government have announced british citizens can no longer stay in their health system and have allowed 6 months from 1st oct which will give us cover untill the end of march 2008 , we are then expected to get private health cover , but will not be able to get it because I have existing heart condition . I expect to have to return to the uk to get back into nhs cover.

Reply  The situation is known in Brussels and is currently subject to discussions between the EU authorities and the French ones. Would you have any problems in the meantime, we invite you to submit your case to the Mediateur de la République (http://www.mediateur-republique.fr/) to avoid any urgent health problem you may encounter to not be covered by  the French health system.

The advice given by the Signpost Service legal experts is independent advice and shall not be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission. As such it will not in anyway bind the Commission

 

[Maricopa]

[quote user="tigerfeet"]I joined the french health system with my e106 which runs out in jan 2008. the french government have announced british citizens can no longer stay in their health system and have allowed 6 months from 1st oct which will give us cover untill the end of march 2008 [/quote]

Just to clarify this tigerfeet, as you are currently on an E106, when that expires, your cover ends then.  Only those currently on CMU have cover until the end of march[:(]

[tigerfeet]

I assumed I was covered under item 3 in this http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Medical-cover-for-inactive-UK.html

[Deimos]

[quote user="tigerfeet"]I assumed I was covered under item 3 in this http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Medical-cover-for-inactive-UK.html[/quote]

I found point 1 interesting.  An excerpt British nationals receive the same treatment, as regards rights and

obligations, as all other European Union citizens residing or coming to

reside in France.  I can only assume that when they say all other European Citizens they include French citizens in that (France being part of the EU and all that).  That in theory should mean that if the French get it so can everybody else, so if the Fench get CMU for inactifs then so should other EU citizens.  And this is a Frech gov site.

Ian

[Maricopa]

 Unfortunately tigerfeet, that only applies to those already covered by CMU  "Inactive people already benefiting from the CMU under the previous rules are being given 6 months to take out private insurance. During this period they will continue to be covered by the CMU."

You are covered by item 2 "There are no changes for people who can produce evidence (E 106 or E 121) of their right to sickness benefits under the NHS. They can continue to register with the CPAM [French sickness insurance office] of their place of residence in order to be eligible for French benefits provided on behalf of the British NHS, so long as their documents remain valid."  (my bold highlighting)

As soon as your documents become invalid (ie when your E106 expires in January 2008), you will then (currently) have to have alternative arrangements in place[:@].

Apologies if this adds to your woes[:(].

[tigerfeet]

Maricopa , if I have it wrong , it just means I will be back in the UK 3 months sooner , no worries. [:)] But aren't the French leaving it late to tell people like me , I m sure lots of e106 expire in jan 08 ,and I have had nothing official yet .

[Maricopa]

Tigerfeet, as you say, the authorities would seem to be leaving it late to actually tell people officially what is going on.  I think one of the reasons that they haven't so far (apart from a handful of very quick of the mark departements), is because official instructions haven't yet been issued to the CPAM's, until they are, the CPAM's won't do anything.  I too am one of those affected by this change, and my E106 expires in Jan 08 as well.  I am fortunate in that I am healthy, and always intended to start a business, I am just starting it a year earlier than intended.[Www]

[tigerfeet]

[quote user="Maricopa"]

 Unfortunately tigerfeet, that only applies to those already covered by CMU  "Inactive people already benefiting from the CMU under the previous rules are being given 6 months to take out private insurance. During this period they will continue to be covered by the CMU."

As soon as your documents become invalid (ie when your E106 expires in January 2008), you will then (currently) have to have alternative arrangements in place[:@].[/quote]

been thinking about this , the way I read it I have my CV and have been recieving refunds for my doctors visits so does that mean I am in CMU ? so therefore will I be covered untill 31/3/08 ?

All inactive EU citizens already accessing CMU healthcare coverage will

continue to do so until 31 March 2008 after which they will be required

to have their own personal medical insurance, unless their inactive

status changes in the meantime.

http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1165343995323#health

[cooperlola]

As I see it, this is the pertinent paragraph from the French site:

2) Il n'y a aucune modification pour les personnes qui peuvent présenter une attestation (E 106 ou E 121) de droit aux prestations d'assurance maladie délivrée par l'administration britannique. Ils continuent à pouvoir s'inscrire auprès de la CPAM de leur lieu de résidence pour bénéficier des prestations françaises servies pour le compte du régime britannique, aussi longtemps que ces attestations sont valables.

My highlight.  This says to me that those on E106's will continue to receive cover for as long as they are valid - it does not say "until 31.3.08."

Anybody whose existing E106 expires, has to re-affiliate.  I am pretty sure that once the expiry date is reached, then Cartes Vitales will no longer work.  Clarification is being sought, but really, everybody needs to keep pestering the authorities to get this sorted and get concrete responses from the right quarters.  Otherwise you may be in for a shock if and when the worst happens.  I would not be too complacent, or you may find you have less than a few days to get proper medical cover.

[Maricopa]

[quote user="tigerfeet"]

been thinking about this , the way I read it I have my CV and have been recieving refunds for my doctors visits so does that mean I am in CMU ? so therefore will I be covered untill 31/3/08 ?[/quote]

 

tigerfeet, you are confusing the CPAM with the CMU.  The CPAM is your regional organisation that PROVIDES your healthcare and who issue your CV.  The CMU is a way of PAYING for this healthcare when you have no other way of being affiliated to the CPAM, ie by an E106 for example.  So when your E106 runs out, you won't be entitled to CMU under the new rules, so therefore, unless you can find another way of being affiliated to the CPAM (by working for example), then you will have to have private medical insurance.[:(]

Hope this removes any lingering doubt?

[Lehaut]

[quote user="Lehaut"]Thanks.  I have given them a try using our situation, they claim to reply in 8 days. Will keep you posted.[/quote]

As promised, I include here the info we sent and the reply we received.  Its quite long but there is no point adding to the confusion by cutting bits out.

Came to France with my family from the UK in 1996 as an economically inactive person (Retired but well under state retirement age). Applied for and received Carte Sejour as met all the French/European requirements for residence. Got second Carte Sejour 5 years later. Registered for Tax in France, pay all cotisations for Health Care (CMU) and other charges/Taxes in France. At that time, Private Health Care Insurance was illegal in France, everyone had to pay into the State system. France has now announced under directive 2004/38 that our rights to health care under the CMU we have been paying into will be removed on 31 March 2008. After that date Private Health Care Insurance will have to be taken out. They do not appear to have taken any notice of the following in the same directive:

Chapitre IV, "Droit de Séjour Permanent", Section 1, Article 16  - le Droit de Séjour Permanent après  une période ininterrompue de cinq ans sur le territoire Français.
 
Chapitre IV Article 24 "Égalité de traitement" .....indique que ces gens ....bénéficie de l'égalité de traitement avec les ressortissants de la France.

Neither my family nor I are a threat to public order We have sufficient income (UK pension) to live on and are under the state retirement age.I do not receive or have asked for any form of State Income benefit/unemployment benefit etc.

It would appear to me that under these articles the French do not have the right to remove our ability to continue to pay into the Health Care scheme that is available to French Residents.

Have written to the British Embassy who intially claimed to be in consultation with the French Health Ministry and that people who have been here for 5 years will not be affected. They will now not reply to any emails on the subject.

Have tried to contest this with the local CPAM (Health) authorities and the main office at St Lô. They will not entertain any contest until we have received official notification (letters they think will be sent out Nov/Dec this year). Have spoken to CLEISS (Service juridique) who indicate that our interpretion is correct but will not involve themselves. Have exchanged emails with the CMU in Paris who also indicate that our interpretation is correct, but can do nothing. Have written to the CNAMTS in Paris and are awaiting a reply.

If, as all indications show, we are entitled to remain in the CMU as British citizens who have lived legally and permanently in France for 11 years, we urgently need something to cause the French system to acknowledge our legal right to stay in the CMU. This must be done before 31 March 2008. The documentation should be in French and understandable/applicable under the French legal system. 

Signed


Reply
Your analysis of the legal state of play is correct, at least from our point of view, and we have nothing to add as regards the situation of people who have acquired the status of permanent resident in France. (The situation is less clear for newcoming "inactive" migrant EU citizens.)

Please note that our service does not speak on behalf of the European Commission. The Commission has received many complaints already, is well aware of the matter and is currently examining what position to take in light of EC law. If it finds that there is a breach of EC law, it will probably ask the French authorities to explain their point of view and, if it is not convinced, it could eventually decide to take France to the European Court of Justice.
But you are free to add another complaint to the lot, if you feel that it is not sufficient that we flag the case - which we'll do - to the competent service of the Commission through our service's feedback mechanism. Just in case, you will find in the following guide the instructions to send a complaint to the Commission (and all necessary information of the effect it can have in follow-up): http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/services/eu-guide/enforcing-rights/index_en.html

Significant the reaction of CLEISS, which is perfectly placed to advise French authorities on its obligations under EC law.
We could suggest that you use the SOLVIT network to put even more pressure within the French administration. SOLVIT is an online problem solving network of EU contact points within national administrations of the member states, interacting under the observation of the Commission and whose complaints and solutions statistics are periodically examined at the EU Council (peer review and judgement). All information and complaint form at: http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/index_fr.htm
We believe that the SOLVIT procedure could help force France to re-consider the impact of its change in policy, if it is confirmed that there is a breach of EC law.

The Citizen’s Signpost Service has examined your enquiry and considers that the matter could be dealt with by the SOLVIT system.

SOLVIT is an informal network to resolve problems caused by the misapplication of EU rules by public authorities in another Member State.

There is a SOLVIT centre in every European Union Member State (as well as in Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein). SOLVIT centres are part of the national administrations and are committed to providing real solution to problems within 10 weeks. The use of SOLVIT is free of charge. 

Disclaimer

On the basis of the information available, the Citizen Signpost Service has suggested that your case could be dealt with SOLVIT. However, the advice from the Citizen Signpost Service is of a non-contractual nature only and does not in any way guarantee that SOLVIT will agree to deal with or resolve your case.
It is the responsibility of the SOLVIT centre(s) to decide whether they will accept to handle your case. SOLVIT will inform you on the decisions and outcomes of the case.

The advice given by the Signpost Service legal experts is independent advice and shall not be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission. As such it will not in anyway bind the Commission.

Needless to say we have sent the info direct to SOLVIT and will follow up all the other avenues!!!

[Ron Avery]

Very interesting, (and can I say encouraging) and helpful information LH and Tigerfeet.

 In this thread it has been stated that those have E 106s will not be allowed into the French CMU when they expire. It has also been stated that those already in the CMU that are "inactif" have six months to find private health cover from 1 October and that some departments have already implemented this Of course both these scenarios have been well documented and reported in the UK press and by the British Embassy etc   Now,  we have a  wide coverage of France on here, so has anybody actually been told in writing by the French CPAM of either of the above possibilities?

[tigerfeet]

[quote user="Maricopa"]tigerfeet, you are confusing the CPAM with the CMU.  The CPAM is your regional organisation that PROVIDES your healthcare and who issue your CV.  The CMU is a way of PAYING for this healthcare when you have no other way of being affiliated to the CPAM, ie by an E106 for example.  So when your E106 runs out, you won't be entitled to CMU under the new rules, so therefore, unless you can find another way of being affiliated to the CPAM (by working for example), then you will have to have private medical insurance.[:(]

Hope this removes any lingering doubt?

[/quote]

thanks Maricopa , yes I did think CPU  and CPAM  where the same , doh

[Suninfrance]

So, let me get this straight - our E106 runs out in Jan 08 at which point we will not be covered by CPAM and not allowed to join CMU? 

[Maricopa]

[quote user="Suninfrance"]So, let me get this straight - our E106 runs out in Jan 08 at which point we will not be covered by CPAM and not allowed to join CMU?  [/quote]

Suninfrance, you got it in one![:@]

[krusty]

[quote user="Suninfrance"]So, let me get this straight - our E106 runs out in Jan 08 at which point we will not be covered by CPAM and not allowed to join CMU? 


[/quote]

should we start a club ?  [;-)]

[Suninfrance]

I reckon.  This new regulation has left me and OH "up the creek without a paddle" (polite version) as we have not been here the requisite 5 years (although we have owned the house for 5 years, only lived here for 3) and I can't get full private medical insurance because of a pre-existing condition.   Looks like OH will have to go out to work next year as our savings are not going to last another 9 years until he's entitle to his E121.

[cooperlola]

Suninfrance, once your 5 years is up, you should in theory, be able to re-join the CMU, this is (in a convoluted way) EU law.  But we need to get past the objuracy of the French authorities.  [:-))]

We should have a nice club up and running by Monday (with luck!) Watch this space...[Www]

[Suninfrance]

Sounds good, however, proving we have lived here for that long could be difficult.  Took us two years to prove to the tax office that we were resident.  In the end we had to take ALL our phone bills, ALL our electricity bills just to show them that we were making and receiving calls and consuming electricity.

As for the healthcare - apart from the odd time when I have to go to the docs that I am happy to pay for, I need an annual IRM (MRI) scan on my head to check that my artery isn't going to explode again and give me another brain haemorrhage.  I would hate to image the cost of another operation and hospital stay if that happened (if I survived it, that is).  This is why I am unable to get full cover on private medical insurance.

[cooperlola]

Your 5 years' residency can be proved "par tout moyen" - by any means (this business hasn't half improved my lingo' skills!)

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F12017.xhtml?&n=Etrangers%20en%20France&l=N8&n=Citoyens%20communautaires%20en%20France&l=N112

Might I suggest that you begin the process by applying for a titre de sejour.  According to this, after 5 years, you're entitled to a permanent one.  This would start you off on the road to CMU application.  I'm not there yet (15 months to go) but until we have concrete evidence as to how this does - or does not -work, we cannot start the discussion or the challenge.

Guineau Pigs wanted.....[Www]