E121

[POB]

In January my wife turned 60 and recived her E121 entitlement.  We delivered the form to CPAM.  In March they requested that I submit a form, obtainable from the Pension's Office, indicating that I was a dependant of my wife.  This we did.  Since then deafening silence.  In the interim we continue to pay our cotisations.

Two questions, please, to anyone with experience:

1.  Is such a delay usual?

2.  Do we ultimately receive a refund of the cotisations?

We are resident in 47 but this seems to being dealt with in Bayonne.  We haven't had much joy from ringing either the Agen or the Bayonne offices of CPAM. 

I don't mind waiting but if, for example, the forms are lost in the system it could be a long and fruitless wait.

Thank you in advance.

[Sunday Driver]

Such a delay is unusual, so I'd get back on to them and find out what's happening.  You will eventually receive a refund of your cotisations from URSSAF.

 

 

[POB]

Thank you SD.  I will chase them up.

[AnOther]

[quote user="POB"]In March they requested that I submit a form, obtainable from the Pension's Office, indicating that I was a dependant of my wife.[/quote]First let me say that this is not a criticism or dig at anyone or anything, just a quest for information and understanding [:D]

Apart from the fact that most of us men are 'de facto' dependent on our wives (bank some brownie points for that one [:$]) I'm interested in what defines a husband as being dependent on his wife simply because she reaches retirement age and how a letter from the pensions office can attest to this. I know this is the way it works in France and that in general, once one party receives an E121 the other can piggyback onto it but it strikes me as a tad bizarre and illogical.

Let's say for argument that a couple are comfortably off, such that the state pension does not represent an essential or even subtantial part of their income, how does the wife turning 60 suddenly make the husband her dependent ?

Perhaps there is a definition of 'dependent' of which I am unaware of [blink]

[Sunday Driver]

In this case, dependency has nothing to do with income levels, rather it concerns entitlement to the E121 and its benefits.  Additional E121's can also be issued to other members of the pensioner's family - in this case, the husband happens to be one of them.....

 

 

[andyh4]

Does that mean that I could then piggy back onto my wife's E121 even though I am working - not UK or France?

[AnOther]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]In this case, dependency has nothing to do with income levels, rather it concerns entitlement to the E121 and its benefits.  Additional E121's can also be issued to other members of the pensioner's family - in this case, the husband happens to be one of them.....[/quote]So beneficiary might be a more appropriate term then [:)]

[quote user="andyh4"]Does that mean that I could then piggy back onto

my wife's E121 even though I am working - not UK or France?[/quote]Good

question and one which may well become of significant interest to

me when my OH reaches retirement age in the not too distant future.

If like me one of the reasons that you are still working is to maintain

your current health cover arrangements it could be a good opportunity

to reassess.

[krusty]

As I mentioned on another thread we have just received an E121 , we have not handed it in yet (not valid until August).

The letter that came with it from Newcastle said to ask the French authorities to apply to them for dependent members of the family.

Is it just a matter of filling in section 5 ? ..........as the duplicate form gets sent back to the UK.

Mine is the same stuation as others , its the wifes E121 and I will be the dependent.

[Roz]

Does anyone know when one should apply for the E121? Is it from four months prior to reaching that Certain Age, same as the pension?  I never thought I would be so keen to wish away my last year as a pre-pensioner!! Suddenly I can't wait to get my hot little hands on some extra dosh - and now it sounds like there's another bonus in store! Whoopee!  I had heard that there were plans to close the "loophole" regarding the husband being registered as the wife's dependent - please tell me this isn't true!

[AnOther]

I think the DWP recommends 3 months but equally don't apply too soon or they will return it and tell you to apply at the right time.

As for the dependency issue it has been discussed here on several occasions but THIS thread seems fairly comprehensive and definitive.

Congratulations (?) on reaching a 'certain age' [:D]

[Will]

[quote user="AnOther"][quote user="andyh4"]Does that mean that I could then piggy back onto

my wife's E121 even though I am working - not UK or France?[/quote]

Good

question and one which may well become of significant interest to

me when my OH reaches retirement age in the not too distant future.

If like me one of the reasons that you are still working is to maintain

your current health cover arrangements it could be a good opportunity

to reassess.

[/quote]

If you have any entitlement to - or obligation to provide - cover in your own right then you cannot claim 'ayant droit'. Your own cover may come from an E-form of your own, or through working. In your case, because your wife is, by definition, a French resident, your joint income has to be declared so the authorities will be aware that you are working elsewhere. So your cover in France should be provided by something like an E101 or worker's E106, or if you are resident elsewhere an EHIC (if applicable) or your own health assurance (if not covered by EU reciprocal arrangements). The same applies if you are entitled to your own 'ianctif' E106; in that case you cannot normally 'piggy back' on a spouse's E121 until your own cover expires.

I know, we have been there ourselves.

AnOther, presumably, from previous posts, is paying NI in UK, so should have some E106 entitlement if he stops working. When that expires he should be able to get cover via Mrs AnO's E121.

Sorry - missed that question first time around.

[andyh4]

Thanks Will,

there is still an open question however (although I am pretty sure I know the answer).  The system in Germany requires that you purchase insuarnce cover, unless you have an alternative system of medical cover.  So we are in a chicken and egg situation.  If I can piggy back on my wife's E121 I do not need to purchase insurance, but if I purchase insurance I cannot piggy back.

[Will]

Sorry, can't help with specifics about German health insurance and how it links in to the EU reciprocal system. But like you I could have a damn good guess at the likely outcome. [;-)]

[AnOther]

[quote user="Will"]AnOther, presumably, from previous posts, is paying NI in UK, so should have some E106 entitlement if he stops working.[/quote]Correct - possibly - because by that time we will have been here for 5 years (+) and I think therefore that DWP may well refuse me on the grounds that I'm entitled to cover in France. A bridge to cross when we get to it [;-)]

[gosub]

Some more info on E121's can be found HERE

[LisaJ]

I have to apply for my State Pension in France, because I worked here briefly a couple of years ago. Does anyone know if I still apply for an E121 as normal or does the cover come from France?

regards

Lisa

[Patf]

[quote user="Roz"]Does anyone know when one should apply for the E121? Is it from four months prior to reaching that Certain Age, same as the pension?  I never thought I would be so keen to wish away my last year as a pre-pensioner!! Suddenly I can't wait to get my hot little hands on some extra dosh - and now it sounds like there's another bonus in store! Whoopee!  I had heard that there were plans to close the "loophole" regarding the husband being registered as the wife's dependent - please tell me this isn't true!
[/quote]

Roz - my husband applied for his pension by filling in a form about 4 months before he became 65.

There was nothing about the E121 on this form, but when he received all the documents just before his birthday, saying how much he would get, (17 pages) they included two copies of an E121.

Having said that, he still hasn't received his new Carte Vitale - which he applied for in May. They now ask for photo- identification. He has got an attestation though.

Don't know about the  "loophole" being cancelled.

[gosub]

I don't think it was ever a loophole more a right.

[AnOther]

No, not a right at all, it hinges on the definition of 'dependent' which is open to interpretation by the providing state.

Hitherto in France it seems that this has almost automatically been accepted to apply to a spouse and it is this which may be under review. As I've said elsewhere it's preposterous and illogical to say that a husband suddenly becomes dependent on his wife simply because she turns 60 and draws a UK state pension !

This from the Age Concern website. (I couldn't find anything else but would expect them to know their stuff reasonably well and ties in with what I have previously read on the subject)

"The E121 also entitles members of your family who depend on and live

with you to health care. Who is classed as a dependent relative is

determined by the country in which you reside"

[Patf]

Remember that once you or your spouse qualifies for an E121, what this means in practical terms is that the british government pays approx. £2500* per year for each of you to the french health service. Whether you consume more or less than this amount of health care or not.

This entitles you to (normally) 60-70% of the cost of the care. For the rest you need to pay for "topup" insurance. And more for dental care, specs etc.

You never get to the luxury of 100% cover given in the UK to pensioners.

* this is the figure I was given 2 years ago.

ps to go back to the original question - I got my E121 first . Newcastle sent an extra form for husband and when we went to the CPAM with the forms all they wanted was our marriage certficate to prove his entitlement. CPAMs might vary in their requirements.

[AnOther]

I've read so much on this now I'm finding it hard to keep track of what was where but I read that when you apply for the E121 you should also include your spouse dependent. If not then you get into the merry go round of CPAM giving you a form in return (E107?) which you send back to DWP who in turn send it back, and all the time your dependent can be in limboland.

CPAMs might vary in their DEMANDS but the actual legal requirements will surely be the same [;-)]

[Gardian]

[quote user="AnOther"]No, not a right at all, it hinges on the definition of 'dependent' which is open to interpretation by the providing state.

[/quote]

Wrong.

Set aside the question of rights and wrongs - if one partner becomes entitled to an E121, then the other would normally be able to benefit.

This really isn't that hard:

• Ask Newcastle for E121's covering both parties
• On issue, they will state that the UK will make payments (as described above) for the 2 individuals (it doesn't use those words, but that's what it amounts to).  Your CPAM is only interested in who will pick up the tab - if Newcastle says "Yes", then they're fine with it.
• On receipt, send them off to CPAM
• Attestations turn up in due course, followed by the forms to send off for photo CV's

That's the way it happened for us.  Quite straightforward.

Can't speak for continuing employment or German complications. 

As for the OP's original question, there's a hiccup in Bayonne (or wherever it was) - they need a wake-up call / visit.  

[cooperlola]

Until fairly recently, there was some lee-way for the local authority (in the case of France, one's CPAM) to interpret the term "ayant droit"/ dependent beneficiary - call it what you will according to where in Europe you live - as they saw fit.  However, thanks to the sterling efforts of one or two influential individuals (nothing to do with FHI, btw), the position has now been properly clarified and, as Gardian says, if the E121 issuing country considers that you have dependent beneficiaries and issues them with an E121, then the "host" country has no choice but to honour them.

Admittedly, a man can be  deemed to be dependent upon a younger wife.  This is, though, partly the residual effect of the, soon-to-be-defunct, difference in age at which a woman is able to retire.  But this will not go on for much longer as the retirement ages for both sexes are now being brought into line.  Like it or not, it is illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sex so if a man's spouse is entitled to be ayant droit on his E121, then the same must be applied to the wife.  It will all even itself out in 2015 when our retirement ages will at last be the same (and I'll be 65 - the first of those women to benefit from this equalisation of rights!)

afaik, if you work anywhere in Europe, you cannot use an E121 (your own or your spouse's) - you must contribute to your local system until you give up work (or have private insurance, if that's the way the country's system works).

[gosub]

"No, not a right at all, it hinges on the definition of 'dependent' which is open to interpretation by the providing state."

Are you sure you you are not Mr. grumpy in disguise?[:)]  The facts are out there for all to see, if you are going to question my reply, check the facts first.

[Benjamin]

Cooperlola wrote:

"Like it or not, it is illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sex"

Sorry to introduce this into an E121 thread but the UK government already do this with the Adult Dependency Increase part of the State Retirement Pension. A male pensioner can claim for his wife but a female pensioner cannot claim for her husband. If they are getting away with it on that one how long will it be before they start discriminating in other areas?