DLA some movement

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

>>If a qualified medical doctor decides from an examination of your correspondents that they could do a day's work, how does that stink, isn't that good news for them? <<

Not if there are no available jobs ! And especially not now the rules regarding accessing French health care have changed.

[/quote]

 

But there are jobs in the UK RH.  They might not be what the IB claimants would choose to do but there are vacancies.  Surely people do not really want to be on IB if they can work do they[6]? 

If they can find work in France they will not be inactifs and so will not have to find PHI, so that will be less stressful for them and so they gain in both respects, if they have to work in the UK they will be covered by the good old NHS. 

[TWINKLE]

Does 'Inability to Speak Native Language' count as an invalidity?[6]  If so - then that should be easy to pull off at the assessment[:)] 

If proper assessment had existed in the first place for individual claims we wouldn't be in this position today.  This is going to cost a fortune to control now and more importantly a lot of stress and unpleasantness for the claimants who really are entitled to IB.

Someone who has MS or chronic athritis maybe having a 'good day' when they are assessed- does this mean that they are fit to work all year round or just on the days when they are feeling some respite?

[ali-cat]

[quote user="TWINKLE"]

Someone who has MS or chronic athritis maybe having a 'good day' when they are assessed- does this mean that they are fit to work all year round or just on the days when they are feeling some respite?

[/quote]

Exactly Twinks.  The day I went for my assessment (especially after the 40 mins car journey) I was virtually bent double.  Had I been having one of my rare "good days" the doctor, who did not know me, could have easily decided (in the space of the 10 minutes) that I was capable of working everyday.  This is the main reason that past medical notes have to be taken into account.

The problem for the "genuine" claimants is that they are the ones who won't exaggerate their disability or illness.  The "fakers" will be the ones who will lay it on with a trowel!!

[Russethouse]

On the other hand a lady I know who had ME (or has, depending on your view) has been back at work for some months now - if she had been assessed  as qualifying for benefit, would it be right that she continue to get it even though she has been able to work for nearly a year ?

It's a complex and vexed question.

Ron is correct though - there are moves afoot to re assess claimants and get those who can go back to work into employment or they will lose the benefit, there is no logical reason to think that will not apply to those who are living abroad. - I doubt only honest claimants ever move to France, there is no reason to think that there will not be the same cross section as everywhere else.

[cooperlola]

It is of course, entirely naive to imagine that everybody claiming any benefit (of any sort) is going to be honest.  People cheat all the time, be it by working on the black, pretending to be ill, or whatever.

But the assessment - however independent - which decides your future ability not only to claim the benefits - but also to live legally in France - should surely consist of more than a brief interview and examination by one doctor?

I personally know very well, two people here on IB.  Both have helped us out on occasions with odd things around the place, as we have helped them.  In both cases, they can manage to work for a little while then - after an hour or so - they are completely poleaxed and have to sit down and rest - often for a considerable time.  Both, if they overdo it, are often in bed for days afterwards.  They deserve better than a brief examination by a doctor in whose interests it will be (perhaps less so if they are abroad, but certainly in the UK) to "get them back to work".  But then I guess, it will be the poor employer (and unlimately - yes, the tax payer when they are obliged to take time off work because it has proved too much for them) who will foot the bill when they can't fulfil their employment contracts because they are just not up to full time work.

Weed out the cheats by all means - but this is not the way to do it.[:@]

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

But the assessment - however independent - which decides your future ability not only to claim the benefits - but also to live legally in France - should surely consist of more than a brief interview and examination by one doctor?

[/quote]

Its not your ability to claim benefits that is being assessed Coops its your ability to work.  The whole point of an assessment is to see if the recipient of incapacity benefit should continue to do so or if their condition has improved enough that that they can now work and should go onto job seeker's allowance not whether they can stay in France or not, that with respect is totally irrelevant. How do you propose its done? " Can you work?"  "No!" " well stay on the IB then"?

The whole issue about keeping IB for your people is the associated  E121 ie not their ability to work, but their ability to keep living in France through having an E121, I'm sorry but that is not what IB is meant for.   IB is meant for people who cannot do work due being incapacitated not those who have moved away from the UK and have no intention of ever working again, improvement in condition or not .

A lot of jobs nowadays require very little physical effort and require sitting on one's backside, well within the means of most people, and I'm sorry but if those who are disabled through thalidomide, accidents or had polio like some of my ex colleagues can do a days work then so can a lot of these others who have decided they will not work again and based their futute plans on that premise.

 

[Russethouse]

The argument here probably stems from the fact that many benefit recipients see the same GP or assessor who is just repeating 'more of the same'. This could mean that cheats know only too well how to 'press the buttons' to continue getting benefits'. In order to prevent this it has been decided that an unbiased assessor will be used, without notes. To be honest most claimants know the history of their illness well enough to describe it if requested.

It would be entirely inappropriate if it was only  UK resident claimants had to go through this process so those living abroad do too. Of course for some this is fraught, especially if they have 'counted' on the benefit they are getting to maintain their way of life in another country, but if the Government has decided that being able to work doesn't necessarily have be in your old trade or profession then it has to be across the board, not just for those in the UK.

[cooperlola]

Whilst I agree with you, R/H the consequences are worse for those here.  If an IB E121 is lost, unless the claimant can find work immediately, they lose their E121 and thus their legal right to live here. Without private health insurance (which they are now obliged to have) they cannot legally live here.  Unlike those of us who were lucky enough either to be in CMU already, or had E106s - these people are not covered by the January statement.

Any newcomers to France who arrive with an IB based E121, who subsequently lose it through an assessment, must then pack up and leave, as the accident de vie provisions only apply to anybody who develops an illness or condition whilst living here.

Half an hour with one doctor on a day when it's just pot luck as to how you "present" to them is just not good enough given the potential consequences.  Independent assessments are insufficient unless the panel has full access to all the medical and employment records for the person, and in a language the assessor can read.  One is allowed to be examined in Britain - but of course at your own expense.

It's a tough nut to crack, I admit, but torturing the genuinely ill in this way is an inhumane way to go about this, imo.  How would you like it?  Because, make no mistake - those who are not ill are just lucky.  This could happen to any of us tomorrow.  We may not feel quite so smug and self righteous then.

[Boiling a frog]

What you are saying is that it is OK to have an independant assessment of your ability to work,the precise details of which you may or may not disagree with and if found to be able to work one will be taken off IB

EXCEPT.

 

If in receipt of IB in France: because if taken off IB one will lose the right to an E121,will have to find a job in order to continue with health care ,or leave France.

 

I can just imagine the outcry if this suggestion was ever mentioned in the UK

[cooperlola]

Or in any other country, for that matter.

The point being, that even if these people are financially able to support themselves in France without IB, and pay all the healthcare contributions which anybody else pays, they aren't allowed to live here unless they work.  But I can.  Does that sound fair to you?

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

What you are saying is that it is OK to have an independant assessment of your ability to work,the precise details of which you may or may not disagree with and if found to be able to work one will be taken off IB

EXCEPT.

 

If in receipt of IB in France: because if taken off IB one will lose the right to an E121,will have to find a job in order to continue with health care ,or leave France.

 

I can just imagine the outcry if this suggestion was ever mentioned in the UK

[/quote]

Ok I'll play devils advocate: Why is that the concern of the UK government or tax payer ? Wasn't it your personal decision to move ?

Where do you want to draw the line - are you really saying that people in this position who move now should be supported even though they know the situation?

[Boiling a frog]

Can I suggest that you reread my post especially the last line.

I am certainly NOT advocating the exception clause, but pointing out just how ludicrous such a proposal would be  

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Or in any other country, for that matter.

The point being, that even if these people are financially able to support themselves in France without IB, and pay all the healthcare contributions which anybody else pays, they aren't allowed to live here unless they work.  But I can.  Does that sound fair to you?

[/quote]

All countries are entitled to make terms and conditions for residency and to amend them whenever they wish.

If in the EU then they need to comply with the directives but are then free to set their own methods.

The UK has a unique system in that health care is free at the point of treatment ,the only condition being that you are a resident.

Most others have a state/insurance backed scheme.

The French Govt have published the rules and as far as I can see they do not breach  the EU directive ie have comprehensive medical assurance.

I hope that you are not suggesting that the UK Govt continues to fund ex E121 holders health care in France.

The only viable alternative is for the French Govt to allow E121 holders to be allowed to affiliate if their E121 is withdrawn  however I suspect that there will be little if any support from the UK Govt as it is they who are trying to remove the rights for IB by a change in the rules.

I am afraid life is not fair .

I am obliged to pay income tax in the UK but am excluded from the NHS except for emergency treatment despite paying my tax to fund the NHS.

Is that fair?    

[ebaynut]

Having been on the phone all morning, thought I would update you on my findings! [blink]

Firstly, the DLA spokeswoman stated that they knew about the changes, it was still too early to give a definitive answer, as they were still being updated on what the announcement would mean in terms of application.

She recommended that all those affected (either intending to make the move, or having already moved and lost their benefit) should apply immediately in writing, stating their own personal cirumstances, and provide both their own, and partners NI numbers to:

Exportability Team

Room B - 120D (Changed, see below!) 

Room B - 215  (NEW ROOM NUMBER!  EDITED: 17/04/08) 

Warbreck House

Warbreck Hill Road

Blackpool

FY2 0ZA

It would probably be several weeks before you would receive a reply or a decision, but that this would be due to the clarification of the ruling for each individual case.

Also, to state that you would like to enquire whether your own particular case could be granted an E121, and this would also be investigated and addressed.

Some useful numbers if you wish to try and get any further information:

Overseas Incapacity Benefits Office - 0191 218 7644

DLA unit - 01253 856123

Medical Benefits (E forms Team) - 0191 218 1999

Also, this thread is entitled 'DLA some Movement', if I could clarify this benefit for those who don't understand, this is not the same benefit as Incapacity Benefit. They are two totally different benefits. [blink]

DLA is awarded to those people who have been classified as 'Disabled'.

DLA is a non-means tested benefit, which is awarded to disabled people who have special needs, and is not based upon your ability or non-ability to work, and continues to be paid regardless of whether you are in employment or not.

DLA is not under the same review and withdrawal by the Govenment as IB, and disabled people are not being forced to have an assessment to decide if they can work. Both Disabled people and IB claimants have to undergo periodical re-assessment to decide whether their conditions continue to entitle them to their particular benefits.

Prior to the ECJ ruling, DLA was not exportable within the EU, and the recipient was not entitled to an E121, (and still may not be), despite the fact that they could never qualify for PHI. This was/is completely unfair discimination against disabled people, and also breaches their right to free movement within the EU, under EU regulations.

Incapacity Benefit on the other hand has been exportable for some considerable time, and also qualifies the holder to an E121. Incapacity Benefit is awarded to people who are categorised as being 'incapable of work'. This is the benefit which draws such vehement views from some quarters. Claimants on IB 'may' also be entitled to DLA, and vice-versa, but being elligible for one does not automatically qualify you for the other.

EDIT:

'Prior to the ECJ ruling, DLA was not exportable within the EU'

Should also have stated:

'unless you were in receipt of it before 1 June 1992'.

Also, just to clarify (again) - it is only the 'care' component of DLA which can be exported at this point in time.

 

[ebaynut]

'DirectGov website' has altered the announcement page to include the below, which also provides an email address.

 

If you already live in an EEA state or Switzerland and want to claim a disability benefit from Great Britain

The Department for Work and Pensions is not yet able to make a decision on any new claims made by people living in another EEA state or Switzerland. It will be able to do so after further information on the eligibility conditions has been added to this section. However, you might want to ask the exportability team (contact details below) about making a claim now to make sure that you can be paid from that date if you are entitled.

Contact details

If you think you may be affected by the Court’s decision and are unsure about what to do, if you wish to request a claim form, or if you need any further information, you should contact the Department for Work and Pensions as soon as possible:

• write to: Exportability Co-ordinator, Room B120D, Pension, Disability and Carers Service , Warbreck House, Warbreck Hill Rd, FY2 0YE

      email: [email protected]

If you have already contacted the exportability team about the judgment you do not need to contact them again. Your original enquiry will be dealt with as quickly as possible but this may take several weeks.

[egger]

Hi all,

I dont know anything about benifits, but I have just read through this posting.

I would like to ask a question, my friend is a pensioner, and so his her husband. In England they claimed 300 pounds a month, this was because she had to care for her husband. When they came here they lost that money, does this thread mean she can now try to claim back that money, or is this something different.

 

[cooperlola]

I think that that is the carers' allowance, but the best thing is to ask your friend exactly what it was they were getting.  If any portion of the money they got was Disability Living Allowance, then yes, that is what is being referred to here.  In their position, I would at the very least e-mail or phone the contacts given by ebaynut to find out.

[egger]

Just asked her. They got attendance allowence is that the same. I have told her to phone them, so she is going to, but I think, she will just telephone her local department. Is that the right place for her to phone?

[Ron Avery]

"She will just telephone her local department. Is that the right place for her to phone?"

What do you think?????  Why is this so hard to understand or are you on a wind up?

She lives in France so why is she going to ring her local department?  You have been told where she should phone and/or write to register an interest for receiving DLA if it becomes exportable, if she cannot even be bothered to contact the right people, what is the point of the people here trying to help her?

[egger]

Wow Ron where did that come from. She is a 70 year old women, I just came across this posting tonight. I didnt want to tell her about it untill I knew all the facts, eg what benifit they used to get ect ect. I did not explain about this as I didnt want to raise her hopes, as they are finding it hard to live without the extra money.

Thats why I was asking the questions. I honestly know nothing about benifits.

Any way I have telephone her, and like I said, She will telephone them tomorrow.  I have just gone over this web site and think I found the number she has to phone.

Not everyone Ron knows their way round all the benifit offices.

So no this is not a wind up.

I dont think my posting warranted this response. I guess I must have done something wrong, but I cannot think of anything that I have done, except ask a question.

 

[Ron Avery]

Sorry egger, but when it is spelt out in black and white exactly  who to contact and where and you reply that "she will phone her own department is that right?" ie inferring a department in France, then it did seem like it mattered not what you were told or told her, she was going to do her own thing anyway.  If I have misinterpreted that she meant she would phone the number for registering her interest in the UK as supplied by ebaynut and not her own French local department then I apologise unreservedly.

[egger]

No Ron you didnt misinterpret, that is what I wrote. I was talking on the phone to her, but I had not got the numbers. I thought her first port of call would have been her local benifits office in England, ( which I did not put), but then I asked if this was correct.  After, I thought, bet someone has already put the numbers on some where, so I looked. I guess I should have done that first.

Im afraid my written English is not very good and sometimes it comes across wrong, I hope this is better, and yes I am English.

So are we friends again now [:)] [B]

[Russethouse]

Is this lady resident in France ?

If so this is the info

If you think you may be affected by the Court’s decision and are unsure about what to do, if you wish to request a claim form, or if you need any further information, you should contact the Department for Work and Pensions as soon as possible:

• write to: Exportability Co-ordinator, Room B120D, Pension, Disability and Carers Service , Warbreck House, Warbreck Hill Rd, FY2 0YE

      email: [email protected]

 

There are  phone numbers in an earlier post, I truly doubt if what I suspect is your friends 'old' local benefit office would be up to speed with this matter

Good Luck with it, its kind of you to help.

 

[ebaynut]

Just to briefly clarify the differences between various benefits, and which ones are affected by the recent ruling in the ECJ.

Incapacity Benefit is an extension of Statutory Sick Pay, and is classified as a 'sickness benefit'. This benefit is not affected by the recent ruling.

When you are in employment, and have paid the necessary NI contributions, and are initially signed off by a doctor, you receive short-term Incapacity Benefit, for which you have to supply regular sick notes from your doctor to confirm that you are classified as 'unfit for work'.

Once you have been off work for 53 weeks, the benefit then becomes long-term Incapacity Benefit. You are still subject to regular reviews by your doctor.

This benefit is, and has been for some time, exportable within the EU, and qualifies the holder to an accompanying E121. This is the benefit which has been much in the news recently regarding the need to interview claimants to see whether there is any other employment that they may be better suited to, and thereby get them back into employment, and off of benefits.

However,

The ECJ ruling of October 2007, determined that the following benefits, which had previously been classified by the UK government as 'special non-contributory benefits', (and therefore not exportable), should be re-classified as 'sickness benefits', and in keeping with other sickness benefits, should also be exportable, and in theory also qualify the claimant to an E121. The decision about the E121 has yet to be verified, but each member of DWP staff that we have spoken with believes that it will also be made available.

Disability Living Allowance (DLA) is a non-means tested benefit made up of two components: Care & Mobility, both payable at three different levels, and is payable to 'disabled' people who require assistance, or have special needs, regardless of whether they are, or are not in employment. This benefit is only paid to people up to state-pension age. The mobility element of DLA has not been granted 'sickness benefit' status, and is unaffected by the ruling.

Attendance Allowance (AA) is also a non-means tested benefit. This is payable to people over retirement age, who also require assistance, or have special needs, but does not include the mobility element that DLA does. There are also various levels of eligibility.

Carers Allowance (CA) is paid to people who care for someone else, the criteria being that the person being cared for is in receipt of DLA/AA, and requires assistance for at least 35 hours per week in whatever form (which I believe includes medical/personal/financial/domestic assistance). Again, there are also various levels of eligibility.

These three benefits are not dependant on NI contributions, but are now all classified as being 'sickness benefits' following the ruling, and should be treated the same. ie Exportable.

Anyone considering moving to anywhere within the EU, who is already in receipt of any of these three benefits, may now take those benefits with them.

Anyone who has previously moved, and subsequently lost their benefit, should immediately make an appeal, as set out in the previous postings, and as per the Governments website 'DETAILS HERE'.

There are likely to be enormous problems getting the benefits reinstated (and any subsequent back-dated payments), if your benefit was stopped more than two years ago. This is due to the fact that details of previous claimants, and their circumstances, appear to be kept by DWP for only two years, (as one of the forum members can readily testify to!). There will also be some more delays as they try to play catch-up!

This situation is not over yet, and there are still it seems to be more questions than answers, as an old song once said!

...........Why is that???? [blink] [8-)] [blink]

[Benjamin]

Thank you for a very clear and concise explanation of the benefits involved. Could I just add what I believe is a correction to eligibility between DLA and AA which has been explained to me by the DLA hotline this morning?

DLA is available to both men and women under 65 years: in other words women receiving a UK State retirement pension do not become eligible to transfer from DLA to AA until they reach 65 years.

One other point if I may. On page 7 of this thread you gave a link to the Directgov web site  and on page 8 I quoted a part of that link which seemed to be saying that even if you hadn't claimed DLA/AA before you left the UK the UK Government was considering whether to accept claims from people already living in the European Economic Area and Switzerland. You haven't made reference to that point in your posting above. Do you know if this point is still applicable?