Astra 2E/2F Technical Thread

[NickP]

[quote user="Martin963"]Would someone mind please checking a Sky box and telling me what frequency the default transponder is now on..?

Thanks.
[/quote]

Forgive me Martin for not being very clued up to technicalities on satellite, but on my "Sky box" the only reference to frequency I can find is in services, when you go to add channels it says 11.778 is that what you are looking for? We are situated in the LeMans, Tours, Orleans triangle. 

[Jako]

Yes, the default transponder is 11778 .

The box will also use this transponder to measure signal strength, but this transponder is now located on the Astra2E pan-European beam so the signal strength of this transponder is useless as measurement tool for the UK beam. At least he EPG will be fully functional, even without reception of BBC and ITV.[;-)]

[Martin963]

Thanks NickP.  That is exactly what I wanted.   I suspected it was still on that frequency but wanted confirmation.

Reason - whatever the default transponder is set to is the (single) frequency that the signal meters on a Sky box give an indication for.  So those indicators are still NOT showing the strength and quality of the spot beam.

Thanks again.

[basquesteve]

I am not sure whats going on but South West of  Pau,  I  can now recieve all my old  Freesat stations  including Channel 5 on a 100 cm  its dish bad reception 65% Strength 5% Quality  but perhaps their is hope

[HoneySuckleDreams]

I have just ordered a 150cm dish from Amazon.de

I'm not back home until the end of February so I will report back then if I manage to get any signal

[Jako]

Regarding reusing frequencies: apparently the narrow UK spotbeam is irrelevant to allow for this.

On Astra2F SES are already reusing a frequency of the pan-europe beam on the west-Africa beam. Inverse polarity and just 1MHz difference seems to be enough: http://www.lyngsat.com/Astra-2F.html (12604 H =PE beam, 12603 V=WA beam.) Consumer equipment cannot differentiate between transponders that are just 1Mhz apart, but using inverse polarity helps a lot.

[Martin963]

I take your point,  but how much forward planning has gone into the spot beam/freq re-use deployment?   For example when Astra 2H comes along...!

[Martin963]

On Digital Spy an English installer in SW France is pointing out that he is often able to get 80 cm dishes that have lost the BBC etc to start working again by giving them a tiny nudge eastwards. 

This seems to chime with the notion that 2E - at least at the moment - is at 28.35 deg E rather than at 28.2 deg E.

Now of course we don't know what SES are planning, but 1N will probably glide off before the end of the week (many of us with Astra 1 dishes will see her again in about a week's time),  but then of course 2C may well make the opposite journey.

My point though is that if 2E is eventually properly co-located at 28.2 some people who have lost channels may get them back,  and if she stays where she is (or even goes to 28.5 deg E where there's more room!) then it MAY be possible to optimise dish azimuth accordingly to favour BBC/ITV etc.

We shall see.

[Quillan]

I have a question (again).

My 1.5M dish is now behaving perfectly again on all channels. Tomorrow I am getting a Humax box FOC from somebody who has lost all the channels (they have bought a UK TVIP bundle as they have over 30mbps Internet and are desperate) so I will be able to look at both signal strength and quality on individual channels which will be interesting.

Anyway my question is this, because my dish was bringing in signals from 1N like at 200% because of its size (like nearly double the size needed) is it possible the LNB was swamped by the high powered signals from 1N or at least having some sort of effect on the lower powers signals it was receiving from 2E and 2F?

By the way if anyone wants to give me their old dishes (60 to 90 cm) I am happy to take them. I have a guy fitting handles to them at present and hope to sell them on as Woks. [;-)]

[soupagirl]

I think maybe you can have ours as a wok. Lost EVERY channel this morning ( apart from QVC!) up till then we had all ITV and C4.

  On second thoughtsI think I will keep it and turn it into a water feature. I'm going to do a bit of homework and catch up on Plus Belle La Vie.

[Martin963]

It seems unlikely to me,  but then if you continue to have perfect reception from now on then one starts to wonder.

I don't think that problems of that sort tend to manifest themselves unless the differential between wanted and unwanted is much bigger than what you're likely to be seeing,  and with dishes over 2 m big.  

It should be possibly to apply some maths to it I expect,  but I'm not sure I know enough to try.  I suspect Jako might be able to add something though.

[Jako]

@Quillan: Not the LNB, but the tuner can receive too much signal forcing it to turn down the amplification and thus suppressing the very week signals from the spotbeam. I have warned before that this effect might exist in one of the threads on this forum.

@Martin963: you need a very big dish to notice any difference between 28.2 and 28.35 , impossible for a tiny 80 cm dish. If reception improves by giving a dish a nudge east it was simply misaligned to begin with. As the signal of Astra1N was so powerful I think this will be the case with the majority of dishes pointing at 28.2 east.

[Quillan]

Thanks Jako. What about when the LNB when it converts the signal, can it deal with 'extra powerful' reception as it were in the first process of reception or is there an automatic gain control that limits the gain before it gets to the conversion part?

[Jako]

No, for normal consumer lnb's amplification is fixed, nothing regulated or limited.  The LNB is simply supposed to be able to cope, but obviously there are (unknown) limits to what the output can be.

[Martin963]

[quote user="Jako"]

@Martin963: you need a very big dish to notice any difference between 28.2 and 28.35 , impossible for a tiny 80 cm dish. If reception improves by giving a dish a nudge east it was simply misaligned to begin with. As the signal of Astra1N was so powerful I think this will be the case with the majority of dishes pointing at 28.2 east.

[/quote]

So are you saying that an 80 cm dish will not "notice any difference" between 28.2 and 28.5 deg E?

[Jako]

Yes, the beamwidth of good 80 cm dish is about 2.6 degrees. This is defined as the -3 dB point.

So reception of a satellite that is 1.3 degrees apart from 28.2 degrees east will only be 3 dB lower.

The difference between 28.35 and 28.2 is only 0.15 degrees and will result in just 0.15/1.3*3=0.34 dB difference.

This is negligible, you will not be able to measure it.

[Martin963]

But surely the advice given still holds;   even if you (who know the theory) are going to argue that the dish was never put up properly in the first place (!),  then nudging it to the east to peak up 2E (in its current position) might be of help.

For the average punter that's useful advice in my view.  Certainly I have been able to bring Eurobird in using the same technique for some folk who couldn't get it previously,  and if at the moment getting the BBC back is the end result then I'd have thought it's worth trying.

With the proviso that we don't know if 2E will stay at 28.35 deg E - although apparently it's there until 25th Feb at least.   But it's a useful trick to have up one's sleeve,  whatever the theory says.

[Martin963]

How is Quillan getting on this morning?

[Quillan]

[quote user="Martin963"]How is Quillan getting on this morning?
[/quote]

Mrs Q has just finished Bargain Hunt and is now on the Olympics, she actually smiled at me today. [:$] Seriously though it all seems OK. There seems to be loads or rumors going around, some say they have tweeked the beam, others are saying they will be doing it in a couple of weeks but all I know is we have had one pixel on BBC1 today, the first since yesterday moring and thats about all. That said if anyone knows me and where I live please don't rush out and by a big dish yet cos in those imortal words "It ain't over yet" is my feeling.

This afternoon I collect a Humax box which will be interesting as I believe I will be able to look at strength and quality on each channel which I can report back if anyone wants.

Most people in Quillan are moving to UK IPTV as they have the bandwidth there. This means there are at least three Humaxs that might be looking for a new home.

My BIL is putting an advert in the local English paper in Spain about buying second hand dishes. I have a friend with a van if you can see where I am coming from. [;-)]

PS Am I right in thinking you can't get 5USA on a humax box?

[PaulT]

Q can confirm the 5USA

[Martin963]

Thanks Quillan.   Let's hope it stays that way for you - maybe the 1N transponders were causing a problem,  although I still remain to be entirely convinced that that is the explanation.

AFAIK you should get 5USA - I say that because freesat's channel list is a standard one (like Sky's) and permits no variations in the basic ordering.   Certainly my rubbish Grundig freesat box has it on the list (and gets it).

Will be interested to see what your individual readings are.....

[HoneySuckleDreams]

I've been let down by Amazon.de, zee germans won't deliver to France.

 

So I have gone back to http://www.2galli.fr . Apparently his whole stock was bought by the English last thursday so he is waiting for some more dishes to come in. He does have a good selection though and suggested that 130cm would be the minimum for where I live, but I've gone for the 150cm like Quillan. I hope we're not in a hole and get nothing...otherwise I will have a big dish for sale on leboncoin

 

 

[Jako]

[quote user="Martin963"]But surely the advice given still holds;   even if you (who know the theory) are going to argue that the dish was never put up properly in the first place (!),  then nudging it to the east to peak up 2E (in its current position) might be of help.

[/quote]

No, it might just as well be necessary to push it to the west or up. There is absolutely no relation with the negligible movement of the satellite in the cubicle. That is fiction,you ignore the facts as calculated.

IMHO this is just an excuse by an installer to make a customer pay twice for tweaking a dish that he had misaligned in the first place:  just blame it on the satellite.

edit: The same question was just answered by a specialist on a sat forum. The required dish size to notice difference between the satellites is 10 meter, dishes of that size and up use auto-tracking to follow a specific satellite in its cubicle.

[Martin963]

OK.  Well that's me told.

 I hand over to Jako.  Fourteen years on here helping out but clearly I need to retire.

If anybody wants me I will of course correspond privately.

[Danny]

[quote user="Quillan"]

PS Am I right in thinking you can't get 5USA on a humax box?

[/quote]

you can definitely receive 5USA on freesat box

Danny