Seriously worried about schooling

[Piecy]

Hi,

We are in the first stages of planning to relocate to France and will be looking to move in 2007. 

We have 4 children (how that happened I dont know!) and I am really confused and worried about the question of schooling - I am not so worried about the 2, 6 and 8 year old as they are quiet easy going but my 11 year old is really worried about the move, particularly about coping at school. 

From reading some of the other postings on this site I have seen that there can be problems with finding friends and intergrating.

We probably would be able to stretch to one of the International Schools but I am also keen for them to intergrate as much as possible.

We are looking at the Bordeaux region - I would really appreciate anyone's comments and expeciences of this tricky subject and moving in general - particularly to that region.

Many Many Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

[Hilltopshot]

Well I gave my own *positive* comments on our own personal experience of making the move last September only a week ago when another poster asked the same question.   http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/605540/ShowPost.aspx 

I'm sorry if I'm sounding churlish here, but it's beyond me why people only think that uprooting a child to move to a new school in a new area is only potentially harmful if it's to France that they chose to move! [:@]   As I stated in my last post, a move to a new school - even to one in the same town - can be disruptive and unsettling.  The trick is to prepare yourselves and your child(ren) and help them see the whole thing in a positive light and to actually look forwards to the adventure that's in front of them.  If you go expecting problems, people not to speak to you, children to be unsettled and upset and to struggle making friends - the chances are you will fulfill your own prophecy.

The problem of finding new friends and integrating into a new community is the same where ever you move to - you don't have to move to France to experience that kind of isolation - try moving from one end of the UK to the other - it's no different, been there, got the T-Shirt (3 times!)  In comparison to one move to Wales our move to France has been a piece of cake (with much friendlier locals! [:D])

This is an important decision you are about to make, and yes, hearing other people's experiences is invaluable in helping you to make your decision, but please remember that the chances are that the bad experiences are very often far outweighed by the good and positive ones - and to see them in that context.   Let's face it, bad news stories always make the headlines on the news, the good heartwarming stories are always left to the last item as an 'And finally....'.  [^o)]

OK, rant over..... :-)

Gail

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                          

[Piecy]

You are absolutly right Gail, I really should be more possitive!

Its just that the more I look into it the more horror stories I find.

Some more tails of good experiences would help me greatly.

Thanks again Gail.

 

 

 

[Teamedup]

My children were born in France but spoke no french until I put them in maternelle. They integrated and made friends.

 

It is not that aspect of schooling that I am not OK with, it is the system itself. Especially from college on.

 

I realise that this board has an exceptionally high number of children sans problemes and sail through it all, far better averages than say your average class in France. Still, I have always said that a child of above average intelligence who can fit into the 'system' will do very well in the french system. Deviate from that and it can go from being bad to a nightmare.

 

[Dick Smith]

Where's your evidence for that, TU? As you say, most people on this board have had a much more positive experience than you, so why insist that they are in a minority? Why so unremittingly negative all the time?

[Russethouse]

I think you are reading a different post to me Dick! TU has said as far as this board is concerned her kids are an exception - thats pretty fair isn't it ?

As for Gail - I'm very glad you seem to have had a good experience in France but surely the reason people worry about going to France as opposed to moving to another part of the Uk is that there are language differences as well as whole different system and ethos.

Apart from that the hours are different, the days are often longer and homework given, that leaves little time for after school clubs etc. A child will expect to be in education a whole lot longer too, many French youngsters do not start work until their mid twenties, no possibility of having a part time job at 14 like many UK youngsters either. Compare that to here where kids often go to several after school activities each week, often have paper rounds or similar at 14 or so and expect to be in education at least until 16, probably until 18 and go to Uni and start work  age about 22/23.

 I am not saying that either way is right or wrong but they are different and a shift from 'the norm', if you come from the British system.

[Teamedup]

Well dry facts would be to look up the education nationales statistics about the ages of kids in the various classes, it shows everything, the amount of resitting, those who leave with nothing or keep plodding on until they eventually achieve, those constant students getting a degree at 24 years old or more.

It is what happens. I have read these figures/statistics, I didn't really need to read them. Just knowing enough people means that I knew what they should say and I found I was not wrong in my rough mental assessement. It isn't rocket science.

 

[Hilltopshot]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

As for Gail - I'm very glad you seem to have had a good experience in France but surely the reason people worry about going to France as opposed to moving to another part of the Uk is that there are language differences as well as whole different system and ethos.

[/quote]

Russethouse, you make me sound like I'm in a minority (or niaive) for 'seeming' to have had a good experience so far? 

Yes, I'm well aware that there is a language difference (I thought that fact so obvious that it didn't occur to me to mention it above...), and that France being France, there is a whole different outlook - but isn't that one of the whole multitude of  reasons why people choose to live in France rather than stay where they are?

I still absolutely maintain that being able to speak the lingo (as with a move within the UK) doesn't mean that you are automatically greated with open arms or that people will fight each other to become your friend either.....  Isolation or exclusion happens everywhere, not just in France.  I'd guess that it probably happens more so in the UK given peoples natural predjudices towards certain regional accents and preconcieved ideas about the people who have them....

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Apart from that the hours are different, the days are often longer and homework given, that leaves little time for after school clubs etc. A child will expect to be in education a whole lot longer too, many French youngsters do not start work until their mid twenties, no possibility of having a part time job at 14 like many UK youngsters either. Compare that to here where kids often go to several after school activities each week, often have paper rounds or similar at 14 or so and expect to be in education at least until 16, probably until 18 and go to Uni and start work  age about 22/23.

[/quote]

This all sounds incredibly negative to me? 

I'd personally not allow my children to take up a paper round in the UK if they were under the age of 21, let alone part time job at the age of 14..... 

I'm not unhappy that they are given homework here either. 

I also believe that there should be a fair balance in between extra curricular activities/hobbies and family life, and be being surgically attached to a steering wheel of a car between 5.30 and 9pm whilst I run my 3 children backwards and forwards every evening and throughout the weekend is simply not an option open to them - where ever they might live..... 

I've also made it abundantly clear to all the children that if they wish to leave school without qualifications (whether at 16, 18 or 28) no matter where we live, then they need to be sure they can support themselves (cause I sure as hell won't) [:D]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

 I am not saying that either way is right or wrong but they are different and a shift from 'the norm', if you come from the British system.

[/quote]

Doesn't  'the norm' simply boil down what you are used to though - where ever you live?

[SaligoBay]

Hilltopshot, you are being extremely defensive about your good experience.

Don't forget that about 50% of Brits who move to France go back to Britain after a couple of years, and the education is one reason.

It's not a personal attack on you or anything else, it's just the way it is.

We had the misfortune to arrive in this village when an idiot headmaster wouldn't let anyone in who wasn't fluent in French.  Brilliant!  And not my fault, but didn't endear me to the system.  He made it quite clear that my children would get no help whatsoever, and that nobody was interested in them.  

As you so rightly say, moving to France is (in some senses) like moving anywhere else.  And that means that sometimes it just doesn't work.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Hilltopshot"]

I still absolutely maintain that being able to speak the lingo (as with a move within the UK) doesn't mean that you are automatically greated with open arms or that people will fight each other to become your friend either.....  Isolation or exclusion happens everywhere, not just in France.  I'd guess that it probably happens more so in the UK given peoples natural predjudices towards certain regional accents and preconcieved ideas about the people who have them....

[/quote]

Hoooooooray!! Finally a voice of common sense! Good grief, it makes a pleasant and long overdue change to read this as opposed to the constant comments about how learning the language is the answer to all ills. Of COURSE it's important to learn French if you plan to make the country your home, but I couldn't agree more with your comment. If anything, I think that if you do speak reasonable French you end up being a bit of a curiosity whilst people use you as a sounding board to explore their preconceptions about England, the English etc.,etc.

[quote user="Hilltopshot"] I'd personally not allow my children to take up a paper round in the UK if they were under the age of 21, let alone part time job at the age of 14..... 

[/quote] Not sure you could let them, even if you wanted to, as I believe that these days the law, if it doesn't actually stop them having a job at 14, at least makes it so b.... difficult as to be almost impossible. Still, I agreed with you on the first bit!![;)]

[Hilltopshot]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]Hilltopshot, you are being extremely defensive about your good experience.[/quote]

[:^)]?  Because I objected to the word ‘seems’ having been used in reference to our experience?    That’s not me being defensive about my good experience, that’s just me being irritated over a choice of words.

[quote user="SaligoBay"]Don't forget that about 50% of Brits who move to France go back to Britain after a couple of years, and the education is one reason.[/quote]

Absolutely, ONE reason [;)].  No doubt there are also lots of other very valid reasons why people feel that going back to Britain is the right thing for them at that particular time - from finances to family, divorce to death.

Decent education (or lack of) is also the reason why a good many people move their children to different schools, buy overpriced houses within the catchment areas of good schools or buy into private education in the UK.  

Swings and roundabouts.  If we look hard enough we can find a downside to everything, even blue skies can mean a bitter frost overnight.

[quote user="SaligoBay"]It's not a personal attack on you or anything else, it's just the way it is.[/quote]

I didn’t take it as a personal attack, I’m sorry you read it as such.  Holding a different opinion and voicing it sometimes means only that

[quote user="SaligoBay"]We had the misfortune to arrive in this village when an idiot headmaster wouldn't let anyone in who wasn't fluent in French.  Brilliant!  And not my fault, but didn't endear me to the system.  He made it quite clear that my children would get no help whatsoever, and that nobody was interested in them.  [/quote]

That must have been a horrific experience for you and your children [:@]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]As you so rightly say, moving to France is (in some senses) like moving anywhere else.  And that means that sometimes it just doesn't work.[/quote]

Just as our move to Wales was an utter disaster from beginning to end.  

Some things are the right thing at the right time, the right thing at the wrong time, the wrong thing at the wrong time or just simply that priorities or circumstances have forced the need for change.   Nothing wrong with that, it’s just adapting to the situation that’s presented and doing things hopefully for the best of all concerned.

 

[Russethouse]

Nobody said that speaking the language would mean you were greeted with open arms. Put yourself in the position of the child for a moment, we have already read how traumatic Hilltopshot's daughter found that first 'in at the deep end' day. As far as I can tell the child in question will be 12, a year older, when they move. Things they may have taken for granted all their scholastic life will be different and they will have to try to make new friends too. As you have already said making friends in a new school can be difficult anyway, of course they are concerned and the more preparation they can do now the better. That is realistic, not negative. Only the original poster really knows the nature of their child and what is likely to be the best thing for them.

As for paper boys/girls - at 14 children of this age are allowed to work a very few hours per week (I used to run a team of delivery boys/girls for the local paper, and now a relative has a paper shop and has a  waiting list of 20 mainly 14 - 16 year olds!)

During term time children may work a maximum of 12 hours per week, of which:

• a maximum of two hours on school days and Sundays

• a maximum of five hours on Saturdays for 13 to 14 year olds, or eight hours for 15 to 16 year olds

A permit from the local authority is required.

 

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

As for paper boys/girls - at 14 children of this age are allowed to work a very few hours per week (I used to run a team of delivery boys/girls for the local paper, and now a relative has a paper shop and has a  waiting list of 20 mainly 14 - 16 year olds!)

During term time children may work a maximum of 12 hours per week, of which:

• a maximum of two hours on school days and Sundays

• a maximum of five hours on Saturdays for 13 to 14 year olds, or eight hours for 15 to 16 year olds

A permit from the local authority is required.

[/quote]

Irrelevant to the main point of the thread, I know, but just out of curiosity, isn't it also the case that under 16 paper boys and girls aren't allowed to work before something like 7  or 7.30 a.m? I know our local newsagent had to stop doing deliveries because none of the kids who actually wanted paper rounds were over 14 and the local authority  checked up on him and prevented him allowing them to work before 7.30. This was the reason for my comment, as in many areas people want their papers before 7.30, and kids can't fit in a paper round and get to school on time after 7.30!! As a direct result of this problem my kids were forced to seek employment with a chimney sweep at 14.......[;)]Sorry for the thread drift!

 

[Russethouse]

I know they are only allowed to work 1 hour before school and I think it mustn't be earlier than 7am (which made the milkman's delivery boy 'very' illegal)

As I said my relative has a queue of would be delivery boys and girls, she is in Northamptonshire, yet in Cookham, where my mother lives, the local paper shop has had to resort to employing active pensioners to do the job, as there was such a lack of volunteers. They get paid about £50 a week in some cases (probably some do morning and evening rounds)

Apologies to the originator of the thread.

[Hilltopshot]

quote user="Russethouse"

Nobody said that speaking the language would mean you were greeted with open arms.

When did I say that?  Especially within the context of a move to France? 

 Put yourself in the position of the child for a moment, we have already read how traumatic Hilltopshot's daughter found that first 'in at the deep end' day. 

Neither did I describe my daughter's first day at school as 'traumatic'.  Not an accurate word to describe one hour's worth of tears and snot!  My post then went on to say how well her first trimester went and which gives a far more accurate impression of her first term at a new school in a new country.

As far as I can tell the child in question will be 12, a year older, when they move. Things they may have taken for granted all their scholastic life will be different and they will have to try to make new friends too. As you have already said making friends in a new school can be difficult anyway, of course they are concerned and the more preparation they can do now the better. That is realistic, not negative.

And at no point did I describe preparations and questions prior to a move to France as being 'negative'. 

Just for clarification however, I did describe the list of French failings (long school hours, lots of homework, lack of time for out of school clubs, lack of opportunity to make some spending money, being two years older than the average UK graduate before they start to earn a living as being negative though! 

None of which had any relevance to the original question about how easy or hard it is to integrate and make friends....

Only the original poster really knows the nature of their child and what is likely to be the best thing for them.

I couldn't agree with you more! 

 

[Lori]

Piecy:  We moved to France when our daughter was 7.  Like

you, we were quite concerned about the education issue.  Our

situation is somewhat odd in that we had lived in so many different

countries during our daughter's very young years (she was born in

Athens, Greece), we knew, at some point, we would have to settle in one

place to allow her a "normal" life.  My husband still works

outside of France, but we chose to settle in France (we are American)

for many different reasons.  We knew we were going to do this when

our daughter was 2 years old, but we didn't actually make the move

until she was 7.  We had the benefit of placing her in a private

French International school for the two years prior to her arrival in

France.  This makes her a little different from an arriving child

who has had no exposure to the French system.  So, for this

reason, you may not find our experience relative to your own. 

Just thought I would add it in as another person's perspective.

First, I have to say that the French International school she attended

for the two years prior to her arrival in France was HORRIBLE (it does

happen) !!!!!  We were petrified that we would find the same

situation IN France.  We did not.  Our daughter was able to

enroll in her normal class level (no holding her back a grade year or

more).  This was a huge benefit to her.  We had rented a home

for one year so that she could attend the same school for the entire

grade year - and we could search for a home to buy.  I had made a

trip to France to find that rental home and I checked out the primary

school while I was on that fact finding trip.  The school looked

so good and the Director was fantastic.  My first impressions

turned out to be genuine.  Our daughter attended her first school

year there and brought home very good grades.  After that year, we

moved to a village not too far away - where we found our home. 

The Primary school in this village (where we now live) was extremely

different.  It isn't bad, but it isn't the same.  Our

daughter finished her primary school years in this school.  The

second year she was there, the Directress retired and a new Director

was hired (from within the school).  I have had little personal

contact with him, but he seems nice enough - always there if you need

him.

Our daughter enjoyed going to primary school and never had any

problems.  That is not to say that it was always easy.  She

was one of very few foreign students in the school and the only

American.  She did speak French, so that did help.  My French

was pathetic upon arrival here, but has since improved to good

communication.  Talking with the teachers, in the beginning, was

quite hard for me.  I am fortunate in that our daughter was

proficient enough in school that I didn't have too many occasions to

need to talk.  Now, I wouldn't hesitate if there was an issue to

discuss.

Nina (our daughter) has now begun her first year of College.  Wow

!  What a change.  The school has 780 students and, so far,

we are dealing with it all pretty well. 

As you well know, every child is different.  I can understand your

11 year old being worried.  I'm not sure I would bring an eleven

year old to a foreign speaking school situation, but that is me and all

families have different reasons for doing what they do.  We are in

the SE of France (Provence).  If we were closer to you, I would

suggest your child meet up with mine as they are the same

age.   I'm sure Nina could answer some of those "kid"

questions.  She still can if you PM us.  She can tell you

child what SHE experienced in her own words.  I'm sure she might

have a different viewpoint than I do (the Mom).  If your child is

interested in talking with her via email, please do not hesitate to PM

us.  Nina loves conversing via email - whether your child is male

or female.

We too considered living in an area of France that had an Int'l

school.  We visited all of the ones in the Nice area.  In the

end, we had had such a bad experience with the original French

International school, and Nice was just SO expensive, we decided to try

the "normal" system and we have not been let down.

If I can help in any way, do let me know.

Best of luck to you all,

Lori

[Mistral]

I've also made it abundantly clear to all the children that if they wish to leave school without qualifications (whether at 16, 18 or 28) no matter where we live, then they need to be sure they can support themselves (cause I sure as hell won't)

As far as I've understood it, you may well have to. French law means that you have a resposability to support your children (or your parents) if they are in need. children have taken their parents to court before and won.

Back to the original question, my children were born in france and have always been in the french system. They don't have any particular problems at school but it has not always been plain sailing either. French schools aren't always very good at adapting to pupils' needs. I have an 11 year old too, who has just started at collège. He's got good grades (near the top of the class) but he's finding it hard work and very demanding. From experience, I know that adapting to 6eme depends a lot on the indevidual child, some have no trouble, others "lose" half the year (or more)  

As Gail says, any move to a new school/area can be difficult, children need to be prepared. And a lot depends on the child's own personality. I have seen families move from Paris to provence and one child copes well and the sibling spends two years suffering. As TU says, the French secondary system can lack flexibility. The primary system is easier. But at the same time, a lot of collèges are making more efforts now than before.

If at all possible it might be a good idea if  your 11 year old started in a primary school, they are smaller and calmer than collèges and they have a lot fewer pupils. this would give him time  

[Viv]

I have a child at school and another that is home educated in France- both are happy . The eldest who is home educated is at a disadvantage with learning the language and it is taking longer but the pros in our situation outweigh the cons.

I do think given the fact that are children and schools are different, the original poster was also going to get a huge range of responses. There are so many variables to consider (not all of them within a parents control).

Yes some people have had good/ bad experiences and no two will have been the same. Certainly be mindful that things may go wrong, you may have to try more than one school rather than leave the country!  I think that Mistral's advice in trying to arrange for your daughter to spend her first year in France at a primary school is an excellent one and obviously aim to give her a little grounding in French.  Try not to let your anxieties (which you are bound to have as a parent), rub off on her - I don't mean that to sound patronising but it could create a further problem for her.

[Joy1]

Hi

We have just moved to the Le Havre area in Normandy (last November) and

have a son aged 11 and a daughter of 8. The kids have just started at

our local french primary school. My son was in Year 6 in England and

due to start secondary school in Sept. In France he should have been at

College this year but we have taken the decision to put him down a

year. French schools seen to have years of very mixed ages. He is not

older than all his class mates. Our Kids are settling very well in

school - they started on 3 January. All the other kids are very

friendly and willing to make friends. Neither of our kids spoke much

French before they went to school and were very nervous, but they are

doing fine. Each has a Teacher who can speak a few words of English and

the school is very keen to help them as much as possible. Kids make

friends very easily and communicate in laughter and playing universal

games such as Tag and football. If your 11 year old is a girl then it

seems to be even easier. Our daughter has made friends with half the

class!!

The best way to integrate quickly is a local school. Though it seems

small town schools(like ours just outside the city) or village schools

are better tnan inner city areas where there are lots of immigrant

children. Our kids are a novelty at their school.

All the best with your plans

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Joyanne"]Though it seems small town schools(like ours just outside the city) or village schools are better tnan inner city areas where there are lots of immigrant children. [/quote]

Tout à fait, Joyanne.  You're picking up the culture quickly!! [;)]

[zeb]

By immigrant chidren, do you mean British, Joyanne?

[Joy1]

Zeb

Obviously any non-French children are immigrant children! I meant that

the fewer non-French national children in a particular school then the

higher the novalty factor both for children and staff. So far the

Teachers and head of our childrens school have been nothing but

extremley helpful - even if it creates extra work on their part.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

Tout à fait, Joyanne.  You're picking up the culture quickly!! [;)]

[/quote]

And yet, maybe not!  French people don't really think of us as "immigrés".  It's only the politically-correct British who like to be so pedantic.  And yet........ British people never talk about emigrating to France...... they RELOCATE. [+o(]  You won't find many Brits RELOCATING to French inner cities, so your English children might well still be a novelty!  [:D]

[Russethouse]

Just for clarification however, I did describe the list of French failings (long school hours, lots of homework, lack of time for out of school clubs, lack of opportunity to make some spending money, being two years older than the average UK graduate before they start to earn a living as being negative though! 

They are differences, not necersarily failings - more to the point they are all things that I have seen mentioned here over the years, some with the comment 'I wish I had known'