Moving to France with a 13year old girl

[verviale]

I suppose I might sound a bit negative and I have posted on this subject before and may be repeating myself,but I urge all of you parents to keep the english up to a good standard, we have many french students and students with U.K. passports whose parents live in France at our university who end up in the U.K. at university ,so a good level of english is important,secondly most students when graduating cannot get a job in France, they almost all end up staying here as the job prospects are so dire in France and they find, they are also in competition with french born students.So I do not think it is a problem for school age kids it is later on when the problems set in.We all want our kids to have comfortable  lives, but more importantly we want them to have choices in the job market, and France cannot offer that, I am sure most of you who have moved to France do not have big mortgages, mainly due to the money you have made on property in the U.K.Your kids will not have that head start so their job prospects are even more important.It is only my oppinion ofcourse,but I can speak from experience in dealing with students from France.

[mascamps.com]

Verviale, I don't think that it's negative at all.

What I find incredibly negative is the attitude of the vast majority of parents living here in respect of the english language ability of their children. I know of only one other family who do anything at all to develop their english. Yet, on the world stage being able to speak english is a major plus (which us native speakers just take for granted).

OK, I accept that beyond age 11 it's not so simple but as I say only one other family that I know does anything about it even for younger children when it's fairly easy. Just making a point of reading english stories at bedtime and organising UK TV is probably enough to cover it to age 11 yet only ourselves and one other family that I know do even that.

I don't know that it's necessarily the case that a majority of those with kids here have small mortgages but, regardless of that, I do get the feeling that a lot of people assume that they and their children can just move back and resume their life in the UK at any time. I think they would have severe problems attempting to follow a UK university course if their age 11-18 education had all been in French (unless, of course, they were planning on doing a French degree). As it is, I've noticed Allan using terms like "interrupter" for "switch" which is just the start of it. Those 17/18 year olds that I've met with some 4 or 5 years of French education behind them are forced to try and use the French words with an English accent for most of their adult vocabulary which doesn't always work as we all know trying to do them same thing in the opposite direction.

Any thoughts on what would be the best way forward to develop the english of the 11 to 18 year olds? (aside from the bilingual/international school option)

 

Arnold

 

[verviale]

Miki might be able to help as I believe he has his lad at university in the U.K. if my memory serves me well.He might be able to advise how he has managed to keep his lads english up to scratch.I feel it is so very important as it just gives the student more choices.It is a very difficult thing to balance when there is so much more to think about when an english child is trying to intergrate into the french education system.At the end of the day , it is a bonus for them ,being fluent french but not at the expense of their english.You only have to look at how many foreign students fight to get to the U.K.to do a degree, it is one thing we do do well and a degree completed in the U.K.really does put an international student in pole position for any jobs back in their country.There is a lot to slate our country off for but,further  education is not one of them.We have two french students just completed there degree in biological science, both have got jobs in the u.k for the dept of enviroment, which is brilliant, both admitted they had a cat in hells chance of a position in France.That is just one example.We hold english courses at the university for three months before starting a degree course, for those not up to scratch.The other thing that could be useful is GCSE english  mock exam papers which I believe you can order.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="verviale"]a degree completed in the U.K.really does put an

international student in pole position for any jobs back in their

country.............We have two french students just completed there

degree in biological science, both have got jobs in the u.k for the

dept of enviroment, which is brilliant, both admitted they had a cat in

hells chance of a position in France.[/quote]

Isn't this just a touch contradictory? [:)]

You know, the funny thing is that MOST people in France do have jobs.

And the French economy has singularly failed to collapse, so I guess

they must be doing something right in all those universities and Grand Ecoles.

As to maintaining English; personally I don't think that providing UK

television is necessarily a must. For a start, one's children's school

friends will not be watching it and if there is one thing pretty much

guaranteed to exclude it is not knowing the plots of whatever junk

everyone else is watching. Plus, having UK telly is hardly good for the

parent's French language.

The handful of bilingual adults I have met (mostly non-Britons living

in the UK) have all pretty much said the same things: it is vitally

important that the mother language is used to the exclusion of the host

language in the home and that reading in the mother language must be

not some much encouraged as insisted upon. We alternate - one book in

French, one in English is the simple rule, and this seems to be working

just fine so far. Certainly our eldest seems to be holding her reading

age in English.

The idea of providing textbooks in English strikes me as a good one,

though it should be remembered that children in France will not be

following the same course material, so these should be used with some

care to avoid confusion or overloading.

[KathyC]

[quote user="verviale"]You only have to look at how many foreign students fight to get to the U.K.to do a degree, it is one thing we do do well and a degree completed in the U.K.really does put an international student in pole position for any jobs back in their country.There is a lot to slate our country off for but,further  education is not one of them..[/quote]

Whilst I might agree with you about the employment situation for young people in the UK, I think that you vastly overrate our education system. I assume that when you say further education you actually mean higher education (ie the university sector). Whilst there are still some excellent universities in the UK, there are many that are very poor: badly funded, understaffed and under resourced. I doubt that a degree from a minor UK university has very much status abroad;  continental students choose to come to study here because the courses are shorter and cheaper whilst entry qualifications are more flexible. The view that British universities, like Britannia, rule the waves is very out of date.

[mascamps.com]

Don't forget that French university education is dreadful. A UK university confers the considerable advantage of a degree in the English language which even France recognises as they teach a number of their university science courses in English eg one of Wendy's French cousins had to do her chemistry doctorate in English up in Caen.

It is obviously true that most people in France do have jobs, on the other hand the majority of students try to keep going on courses as an alternative to unemployment so even the 20% odd youth unemployment is considerably understated.

The reason for UK TV is twofold. 1. to help maintain current english and 2. to help maintain a link with UK culture.

Don't forget that the parents english will no longer be current, hence the importance of UK TV for the first point. They obviously get less current as time goes on too. For a child born here, their parents english will be far from current 5 or 10 years down the line eg had they come 10 years back they could easily not know the english for various Internet terms. The other aspect of keeping up to date with UK culture is also important. My native French teacher from years ago told me that the combined effect was that she found it difficult to speak to her friends when visiting France about current events after only a few years.

I appreciate the potential problem with them not being current with the goings on on French TV series. However, given that French TV runs a little behind the rest of the world I suspect that the kids watching UK TV would be ahead of their friends on various series etc. To my mind, the greater difficulty is with the parents who, as you say, need to be watching French TV to get their French properly up to speed.

Alternating books is a reasonable middle ground. However, personally I'd be worried about the children picking up my bad French accent if I did that therefore I read all books (French and English) to them in English. Interestingly, I have the chance to see the accent effect directly in English as Wendy is Australian - it's very obvious which words the children have picked up from me and which from her. The same effect would apply if we read to them in French ie words from us would be in a bad accent and we have noticed this in the children of others eg saying BON JOUR rather than BON ZHUR even when they've been here some years.

I'm in two minds about the UK textbooks. As you say, the different curriculum could easily double up their work. Depending on your own education, what might be viable is to read the homework questions out in English for them as the problem is with specific words and phrases rather than concepts for the most part (at least for science/maths/similar subjects). History would probably require you to teach them it as they obiously won't learn anything about British history here and in a number of cases will be learning about it from the other side (eg Nelson as enemy). As a first cut on this, I've ordered a series of the Usborne Pocket Science books which I picked up very cheaply on ebay.

 

Arnold

 

[fulcrum]

[quote user="verviale"]I suppose I might sound a bit negative and I have posted on this subject before and may be repeating myself,but I urge all of you parents to keep the english up to a good standard, we have many french students and students with U.K. passports whose parents live in France at our university who end up in the U.K. at university ,so a good level of english is important,secondly most students when graduating cannot get a job in France, they almost all end up staying here as the job prospects are so dire in France and they find, they are also in competition with french born students.[/quote]

Verviale

I agree with what you have written.

[Miki]

Verviale,

Sorry if I go over old ground in this thread but it has got some pretty long posts and I am a little busy at the moment.

There is no doubt in my mind that British kids coming to France, at say, pre 7/8 years old (approx) will, after college and Lycée, have English written on a par with their French counterpart on many occasions. I have seen kids here who spell English phonetically, just the same as I see most French kids doing exactly the same.

We spent countless hours, well I say we, it was much more Tina and having a private tutor, when and if required, (not dear, before anyone runs away with the idea that we have loads of dosh !) that kept our kids up to scratch. Many British kids will be top in their class for English but the competition at times is not  always so hot !! So for many, sorry but don't get carried away with little Johnny coming top in that subject. As I have said before, picture the millions of kids that have gone through school in the UK and come out knowing very little French, then reverse that situation to one in France and kids learning English  ! So yes Verviale, one must not let the kids English go believing speaking both languages is sufficient in itself, written is very important.

Arnold has so far said much of what I agree with but French Unis, well they do things differently i.e not the same as the UK, that  doesn't make them worse (or better) just different and for our youngest lad, after seeing what was on offer here, took the decision to join his eldest Brother and going to Uni back in the UK, where he found himself in his French class, among a couple of other French, who like him, felt that the terrible drop out rate and the pressures often put on the students. Our local Uni(s) here and, overall one of the biggest student towns in France, has a horrendous drop out rate. Both the youngest lad and Daughter, chose a different educational route to French Unis and have done OK although Daughter to gain Bac + 3 will need to take a year at Uni, which she says she now feels confident enough to do but, whether she will, or not, will probably depend on how she fares for a job next year, with what educational qualifications she has then !!

Hope that helps a little...................... and another long post to add on to the thread [;-)]

[Tourangelle]

I agree with lots of what Miki says, especially the emphasis on the fact that the two systems are different when in come to universities.  The drop out rate is huge because they don't do admissions really until after the first year, so some sink rather than swim.  As thousands are not being paid in tuition fees each year, it is not such a big deal for parents and so on, and often it is possible to reconvert.  I have studied both in France (teaching diplomas at uni) and the UK, (degree in UK,) and for me, the major difference was that there is no social life or students unions here, but I had excellent teaching both times.

I find the comment Arnold makes about his friend strange, it is not my experience at all, having lived here for eight years, and now teaching things like 'have you ever drunk irn bru' to collègians, I have not lost my English at all, and I have no problem when I go back, but everybody is different I suppose.

[Jo53]

You don't keep full native speaker status for ever if you spend your life in a non-Anglophone country. In the europe-wide professional association I belong to there is a British guy who has lived in Germany for 30 years. He considers himself an authority on English usage and writes articles on it in the newsletter, for the benefit of non-native speakers. But a lot of what he says is out of date or wrong. For example, he thought that to 'parent' a child was the same as to give birth to or father a child, whereas its meaning in English is exclusively to do with bringing up a child.

Re universities, all the problems of underfunding and overcrowding that now exist in many English universities have existed longer and worse in French ones.

[SaligoBay]

Can I pile in here?  [:)]

My son is 12, he's in quatrième, and I do wonder what the education system is about, I really do.

The days are SO long.  He's out of the house from 8am till 5.45pm four days a week, 8am till 12.45 on Wednesday.   It wears them out and it wears them down.   And it's all spent in cramming their heads full of useless things like French grammar.  There's very little pleasure involved, and they're all so tired.   He told me recently that "hypoglycémie" is quite normal in school - oops, there goes another one passing out!   It all sounds most strange to me.

There are a few good teachers, but most just seem to be doing their time.   If a teacher is absent, tant pis, they almost certainly won't be replaced.    I have the impression that everybody is in it for themselves - timetables get changed on the whim of some teacher who doesn't fancy working on a Monday morning or whatever.   There are no changing facilities or showers for sport.   Really, the children are not important, they're just there to provide a paying job for teachers!

There are a number of small positives, but the overall thing, well, I find it quite depressing.   But it does prepare children for life in France, I suppose.  [8-|]

[The Riff-Raff Element]

The days are SO long.  He's out of the house from 8am till 5.45pm four

days a week, 8am till 12.45 on Wednesday.   It wears them out and it

wears them down.

Well, I suppose it could be considered excellent practice for when they jump ship for the UK and the 60 hour week...[:P]

Actually, for once, I agree with you: the time spent out of the house

once children get to collège and lycée is pretty staggering and I do

wonder if all that time at the chalk face is really beneficial. It is

not as if the end product is dramatically different from what is

achieved in the UK, Germany, Italy or Spain.

Certainly it is another factor for parents thinking of a move with

teenaged children to consider. For those brought up with the system,

collège is no drink of water, but for a nervous English 12 year old

with little or no French it could well verge on purgatory.

Mind you, having watched how frisky demos here can get, I'm not sure

about the system wearing them down; winding them up seems more likely.

Oh, and it keeps the teenage pregnancy rates down as they are all too shagged out to get up to anything.

[KathyC]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

 

The days are SO long.  He's out of the house from 8am till 5.45pm four days a week, 8am till 12.45 on Wednesday.   It wears them out and it wears them down.  

[/quote]

By contrast, where I live ( in the UK) the children leave school before 3 o'clock. Although some of them probably spend the rest of the day in interesting and worthwhile pursuits, for many that's a lot of hours spent in front of the tv or computer monitor or hanging around the streets. Obviously both systems lead to different problems.

[mascamps.com]

Tournagelle... it's not so much that I think the adults lose their english (although they will become more out of touch with current english of course), but that the range of accents that you hear here is quite limited. I spent a couple of days in Dublin on the way "home" and, yes, it did take a few seconds for the Dublin accent to click in the first day.

I think my negativity towards French universities is their "take all comers" approach. I just can't see that working well in my own mind for very large numbers of students. It does work reasonably well in the Open University but then you're getting fairly motivated students on the whole and not in really big numbers (for a given class).

SaligoBay... the school hours around France are very different! In the area in which we live, the hours are 9am to 5pm Mon-Fri, 9am-noon Wednesday with 2 hours out for lunch. In the area with our closest schools, the hours are 9am-5pm Mon-Fri, off all day Wednesday and the 2 hour lunches. I do dispair about the way absences are catered for too. We have received many a phone call to collect Allan because one teacher or another didn't turn up and there was nobody to look after the kids; what they don't allow for is that parents work (OK, not so many in our rural area, but even so) and neither do they allow for the 60 minute round trip that we need to do and have given off to us for not being there within 10 mins of putting the phone down (now, if only they'd let the kids go to the primary school/ college complex just 5 mins from us... but then that would make sense so obviously isn't the "French" thing to do!).

I wonder at the wisdom of nursery school running from 9pm to 5pm as well. Our 4 year old is constantly worn out which seems a bit silly at that age.

Don't forget that there's usually under an hour for lunch in the UK, so that 3pm/3.30pm finish is the equivalent of something like a 4pm/4.30pm finish in terms of actual class-time.

 

Arnold

 

[mascamps.com]

Jo... Interesting comment.

By the sound of it, that British guy you speak of has lived without even UK TV or papers to keep his english current. If nothing else, it must be "interesting" to speak to him about things like politics and technology.

Yet, the funny thing is that his belief that he remains an expert on the language is one that appears to be commonly held.

 

Arnold

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="mascamps.com"]

Jo... Interesting comment.

By the sound of it, that British guy you speak of has lived without

even UK TV or papers to keep his english current. If nothing else, it

must be "interesting" to speak to him about things like politics and

technology.

Yet, the funny thing is that his belief that he remains an expert on the language is one that appears to be commonly held.

 

Arnold

 

[/quote]

Though I would imagine that he would be pretty au fait with German politics.

Which is rather the point: why bother keeping up with every current

event in a country in which one no longer lives? And what exactly is

"current English?" Given the huge range of dialects of English spoken

around the world and given that there is no single authority dictating

which, if any, are correct, I cannot see that being current with every

nuance of yoof slang is really that important. The Europeans I used to

work with spoke some fairly idosyncratic versions of English (none of

them, I recall, had studied the the language at university) but they

could communicate clearly and could ask for clarification of anything

that they didn't understand.

It is clearly worth making an effort to ensure that one's children can

both speak and write English to a high standard, but I cannot see that

any advantage can be gained by trying to imerse them in what is

essentially a foreign culture at the expense of the one in which they

actually live.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Jon"][I cannot see that being current with every nuance of yoof slang is really that important. [/quote]

It's not just yoof slang though, Jon, it's a whole host of little things that have happened in your absence.

I connect to the internet by methods that I know as Wi-Fi and ADSL, pronounced wee-fee and ah-day-ess-ell.  I first met them here, and so they are the only names I know.

But I see from my search for accommodation over there that they call it "wireless broadband". 

I think it'll be interesting to see the differences, I'm looking forward to the adventure!

[mascamps.com]

I doubt very much that he'd be au fait with German politics. We're here three years now and I know next to nothing about French politics and frankly wouldn't expect to even after 30 years. After all, even if we totally immersed ourselves in the French media, what would be our incentive in keeping track of French politics when we can't vote for anyone other than the Mayor? OK, I'm not saying that being able to vote in the UK elections (which I must get around to registering for!) is much of an incentive to follow that but the inability to vote in the French elections is something of a disincentive.

Also, there's the aspect of where you would consider "home" in that too (see my blog at http://www.foreignperspectives.com/how-french-do-you-want-to-be/2006/09/08/opinion.htm). I would bet that our German friend would consider the UK as "home" despite living in Germany for 30 years and my bet is that the majority of the brits moving to France would similarly consider the UK as "home". After all, how many of us have bothered with the French language equivalent of this forum (or, for that matter, know that such a thing even exists)?

There's "wireless broadband" and "wireless ADSL" (AY-DEE-S-L) for the home; wi-fi is the term generally used for what is effectively the same thing but when used outside in airports and whatnot. The broadband term is for people accessing it via their cable TV cable; ADSL when it's by way of the phone. Therefore people in the country generally would have ADSL, those in cities generally broadband (because you get the phone and TV channels thrown in free).

It's not really possible to learn English (or any other language) without a knowledge of the surrounding culture. Teach your kids only English and not British culture and you'll do them a great dis-service in the long term. Without the cultural background, it's difficult to pick up on considerable chunks of the language. For instance, say your kids decide to go to the UK 20 years down the line then they'll be looking for an equivalent of CAF when (at the moment), they should be looking for the Child Benefit Office, Child Tax Credit Office, etc.

My guess is that sans-culture, the children would, in practice, pick up an American culture from their English rather than a British one at best and at worst no anglophone culture at all and thereby find considerable difficulty should they ever want to live in an anglophone country at some point.

Slightly at a tangent... any thoughts on what box children born here yet raised in French so to speak should tick for "mother tongue"? Should it be English because that is their mother's (or father's) language, or should it be French because that's the language that they're actually fluent in? Or, do they not really have a mother tongue at all?

 

Arnold

 

[Wendy]

Hi Saligo, you can pile in beside me as there's plenty of room. I hope Alison is still following this thread because it is an important one. In TV-land it is all so simple:  Just buy your house and plonk your kids in the local village school. They will be 'fluent' in six months, the Maire will personally look after you, and your neighbours will all invite you round for rustic feasts in the field behind their farmhouse. Then there is REALITY!.  My 13 year old just hates school here, he is in 5eme after re-doubling. I cant blame him as I have been to the school on many an occasion. The teachers are an unsmiling lot, and, he says, they shout and scream all the time. Which is something he does not like.  My son is up at 7am, has breakfast, and is off to school where there is no break until 12.30. I gave him snacks to have in between classes for the morning but he was told off for eating them. From 12.45 he goes until nearly 6.00pm until he gets home and has something else to eat or drink.  He refuses to use the toilets at the school as they really stink and never have toilet paper. I understand the teachers dont go without loo paper though.  I despair at how the girls cope in this environment (during their 'time of the month' I mean). The teachers are all employed by 'the State' so they have no incentive to be the best they can. The kids are all churned out on a conveyor belt here. Alison, I dont think there is a way you can find out how your kids will go here unless you base your 'purchase' here solely on what the local school is like. How many people look at that? what if the only suitable school is in a region you cannot afford to buy in?.  There are many areas in France where 'foreigners' still are simply not welcomed.  In the Pyrenees Orientales this is certainly the case...how many people have appeared on this forum and defended Inspection Academique in Perpignan (the head office here)?. None. And unless there is a HUGE influx of non-french speaking immigrants arriving here in this region, wanting access to College's and Lycee's,  things will not change.

Alison, if you decide to settle here, please make sure you look long and hard at the local education. And beyond that, College, Lycee and University. Dont try to become more French than the French either. You will be a Brit in France; just make sure what they offer is what you want!.

[roz]

Good afternoon Saligobay,

Just read your blurb and I wonder what on earth made you choose to come and live in France with your family??  Surely, you looked into the schooling system in detail before you came here?  You have to - in order to be fair to your kids.  Otherwise you are ALL in for a great shock and how unprepared is that????  I think that is why you are depressed but I find it depressing and extremely negative that you feel  all the bad things prepare children for 'life in France' .  Do you not enjoy yourself?  If you don't you can't expect your children to - it all rubs off!

I agree that the hours are long for the children.  My own daughters (13 and 15) leave home at 7am in the morning and get home between 6pm and 6.30pm (excepting Wednesdays - but on those afternoons they have private French coaching!!).  But - how can we complain about it - or indeed the fact that they have to learn 'useless things like French Grammar'.  I never heard such nonsence for a long time.  Why go to school or live in France if you don't want to (or for your children to) learn the language - correctly??? 

 

 

[Lori]

I just want to say that I agree with what SB had to say.  My daughter is in cinquieme and has terribly long days.  Yes, she survives, just like SB's son does and I know for a fact SB's boy is a very good/bright student - wish I could say the same about my daughter.   I also agree with what she said about MOST of the teachers, not all of them.  I have seen a couple of good ones, really good ones. The rest should have chosen another career.  I am not saying this is specific to France.  I know it happens everywhere.

Just because we recognize the shortfalls of life in France, does not mean we don't appreciate and recognize the benefits.  I didn't think that was what this thread was about.

Country living does not offer much as far as employment in France.  Young people, where I live, often leave or choose to take part in non-professional work as professional work openings are so hard to find.  Meaning, they stop their education at 16 because they see no reason to continue.  That is sad, but reality. 

I don't think it is fair to berate SB.  At least she is being honest.  So many here like to paint a perfect picture of the education transition/system.  It isn't always perfect and it is only fair to say so.

 

 

 

[Teamedup]

Roz, with respect, how can one 'know' what french schooling will be like....... apart from excellent threads like this how can one ever get an inkling as to the reality of it all ? I never knew or understood it.  Even when my kids started it I NEVER did get it, never understood what it was about. I still don't get it.

 

AND my youngest used to leave home at 6.40 and would get to the local town at 7.15, the school opened at 7.50 and school finished at 5 and the bus left the town at 6.20 and he would be in around 7pm.

It isn't that I am stupid, ignorant or disinterested, I was always on school committees and very interested in it all.

 

 

This has been an excellant and useful discussion.  Sadly a post such as yours Roz is most unhelpful, it perpetuates the myths and urban legends about France as it gives the impression that one can find out before moving to France.

 

TU now in my 26th year in France.

[Tresco]

TU, it's so good to see you back.

What always amazes me in the education section, which I always read, is how little we do hear of the problems many immigrant children (particularly from the UK) have in schools here. I wonder whether a lot of the people who aren't happy discuss their concerns by PM?

I've decided not to respond to the post you and Lori responded to. You have both expressed my feelings, but conducted yourselves far more moderately than I would have done.

[Miki]

Ros,

You will find SB had a more normal reason for coming to France. It didn't include TV influences.  She is no fool and her Son is an intelligent lad. What she has said is honest and how she sees it and indeed how some of  us also see it.

We haven't been here as long as TU but have been here a fair while and have been through most, if not all that she has had to go through. You can cross examine all the schools you want but unless lady luck is on your side, in a very big way, you will not have a clue, to what that school really will be like for your kids. The ones who get the biggest shock in my experience, are those that think they have got it all planned, right down to the last nth, only to sadly find out, it simply is not how it looked to one in the first place.

How did you do this "homework" anyway  ?  And what was the main criteria required ?

[Lori]

TU  !!!!    So good to see you back.  You've been missed.  I'm glad you chose to post on this thread.  I feel it is an important one.