Moving to France with a 13year old girl

[roz]

Morning!

 

Sorry, I did not mean to be unhelpful BUT I really STILL  can't understand how anyone can berate their children spending time in a French school learning French grammar!  Whichever way I look at it - this is NOT a waste of time!!   I do agree with you that excellent threads like this are meant to be and are indeed extremely helpful to us all (which is why I or anyone else are here reading them) but I do think that we should also be allowed to question anything we read if we don't agree with it.  I genuinely would like to know what SB has against the grammar!  I do understand and agree with whats been said about French teachers etc. but also agree that simelar problems also exist elsewhere.  In fact I have to go to my eldest daughters equivalent of Parents/Teachers next Wednesday afternoon and shall have to face all of them (the teachers) by myself as my husband is away - and I  am dreading it!!  Anyone else ever feel like that????

[mascamps.com]

Tresco, hard to be 100% accurate about the reasons why such things haven't been discussed here but to my mind they are, in the main, two-fold:

1. In my experience of this forum, the majority of people contributing to this forum are retired and don't have kids with them.

2. The majority of people have moved to areas with a relatively high level of resident brits and such areas appear to be much more able to accept and settle in immigrants.

As far as the second goes, our own area (Pyrenees-Orientale) is so unused to having non-French speaking immigrants arriving that the lady who runs the classes for immigrants would not (and still does not) believe that William couldn't speak any French. Her view was that he was simply lazy because he wasn't doing the work! In fact as a consequence the class was incredibly exclusive with changes in venue not told to William, excursions happening that he wasn't invited to, etc. Had the same happened in the UK, I think that the lady in charge would have found herself up on a charge of discrimination.

At a bit of a tangent, I really dispair of the quality of the French education system. We have met that lady who "knew" that everyone everywhere in the world learned French and couldn't accept any information to the contrary but the school principal in the college didn't even know where Australia was!

What I hadn't appreciated myself was that foreign languages (most commonly French, of course) aren't compulsory in the UK schools these days. Net effect of that is that more and more people arriving here will have kids who don't speak any French. Before 'yall jump on me and say that such people should/must do something about that before they come, please remember that it is NOT always possible to do anything about it in advance. The children already have a full load of work in the UK and it's not always viable to add French tution onto that and, for that matter, such tution ISN'T available everywhere in the UK.

I congratulate Roz on adding French tution for the kids. However, in our area, that's not an option because it isn't available for children. So, good idea, but remember that France isn't the same all over: if you live in an area with a lot of indiginous brits like the Dordogne then you can certainly expect services like French for kids to be available but such services are NOT available in the rest of France.

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

Neat side step Roz.

Any chance of knowing how you made these decisions ?

How did you do this "homework" anyway  ?  And what was the main criteria required ?

[Anyone for Cricket?]

Hi

I agree in part with all sides of this argument BUT have to say if I were to plan to bring a child over 11 to ANY non english speaking country I would expect there to be problems with schooling.  This is such an important time in a childs life that I cannot understand why  families comtemplate the idea unless they know exactly what they are getting into.  (don't jump on me, I'm sure some have compelling reasons, but following a dream should not be one of them)

We are in the process of selling our house and we have ahd people say, 'I'm bringing over a 14 year old, they'll be fluent after a few months won't they?'  They don't ask where the schools are, are there other english kids in school, can you take me there to meet teachers, nothing.  All of these questions should be second nature, people go to view schools and talk to staff before a move in england, why not when they are changing country?

I was lucky my son was just 3 when we came over, there were no other english kids in school he was the first and although he struggled they tried hard to keep him interested when he couldn't understand and after a while he relaxed and the language came to him.  The schools are tough but his results are fantastic, the school give him extra help two evenings a week as well not because of his language issues but to ensure that he gets the best  out of his homework, I don't want him to pick up my gloucestershire/french accent and so they have volunteers who do his reading homework with him (these volunteers also help other kids who struggle generally with homework), I stick to reading in english with him to keep that side up.

The most important thing I ever did to aid his schooling since I moved here was to go to uni and learn the language myself, it was hard but at least now I never fear parents evenings as I know what they are talking about, I agee with the poster who said your attitude has to remain positive too as kids do pick up on it.

At the end of the day the dream you are chasing is yours, not your kids and although it may be for the longterm benefit of the whole family you have to say at what cost to their education.

[roz]

Hi Miki,

Which decisions do you mean exactly?

I was lucky.  I took about 3 years making the decision to move.  Three years ago we moved from Africa, where my girls had had all their educatation, back to UK. We had spent all our holidays in France - 2 months every year at our house which we bought here in the late 80's.  So the girls knew the area  here and the house from a very early age.  We then moved from Africa to UK 3 yrs ago and the girls went to an all-girls private school where they did not know the area etc. etc.   Having bought a small cottage in Dorset we reached the dilema of having to choose either a) to stay in it or b) sell our house in France to afford something bigger in UK.  It was the girls who suggested that we move here.  I was nervous about it. My husband and the girls were not.  I had just sussed out the English system too!!!!  Luckily I had French friends to help me. And I leant on them and found out a huge ammount. We looked not only into college but lycee too.  We decided we wanted a school which had both.  So the girls would not be 'separated' whilst one was still in college.  We also looked at things like where the girls could continue with their music studies (violin, guitar and piano)  This did not actually work out - one reason was lack of time.  One particular friend even came with me to meet the Head Master. We looked at local schools in the Dordogne but jointly (myself and the girls) decided that they were not quite what we wanted and the girls wanted to go a school in the Charente where they would in fact be the only English pupils.  That, one year later, is still the case.  The girls are happy there and could not wait to start. They were happy even, in UK, taking extra French lessons before we moved here!!   As I said on an earlier post, after just 2 terms my eldest passed her Brevet and also obtained above the moyen to go ahead to Lycee.  (The school had already agreed that they would let her pass on anyway - but she managed to do it off her own bat !)  I also found by talking to the girls and finding out what they would like in France that they could not have in UK also helped.  I bought them each their own puppy in UK (just with time enough to comply with all the DEFRA rules - beware anyone who wants to do this and remember to work out the time scale v carefully).  The idea was that they could not have had them in UK as the cottage was too small and that also when they arrived here the puppies would destract them from anything 'nasty' at school. I had warned the girls that there would be tears and frustration etc. etc. but am surprised myself how little!!   They also wanted horses.  So we had the fun of buying them here for them and they both have them as a hobby which they adore - and have been able to do some showjumping competitions.  BUT it's not all rosy.   My husband left to work abroad just 2 wks after we moved in here so it's just been us girls!!  The first term was the worst - Latin to French dictionaries, French to Spanish, ect. etc. But we all remained positive.  We also knew that if it did'nt work out  I would take the girls back. (We decided jointly not to sell our cottage in UK for 1 yr until we were quite sure of our decision).   But they don't want to go back :  AT ALL.    They tell ME not to worry!!  I guess the end of the story is that our house in UK is now up for sale!!

I don't know if that does answer your question or not!!  Its really difficult trying to condence so much into so little.  I hope that its helpful to others too.

[Just Katie]

Hi Roz,

I really do not think you are going to get much peace here.  The problem as I see it is the manner in which you replied to SB's post. 

She has been living in France for a very long time, is very well respected on the forum and understands the systems here. 

I see from a previous post you have made that you have been in France since December and you may be still enjoying the honeymoon period.

I may have interpreted this response incorrectly, and if I have I apologise to you.  However, it does come across as being very rude and opinionated.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

Roz, with respect, how can one 'know' what french schooling will be

like....... apart from excellent threads like this how can one ever get

an inkling as to the reality of it all ? I never knew or understood it.

 Even when my kids started it I NEVER did get it, never

understood what it was about. I still don't get it.

AND my youngest used to leave home at 6.40 and would get to the

local town at 7.15, the school opened at 7.50 and school finished at 5

and the bus left the town at 6.20 and he would be in around 7pm.

It isn't that I am stupid, ignorant or disinterested, I was always on school committees and very interested in it all.

This has been an excellant and useful discussion.  Sadly a post

such as yours Roz is most unhelpful, it perpetuates the myths and urban

legends about France as it gives the impression that one can find out

before moving to France.

TU now in my 26th year in France.

[/quote]

I'm pleased you've started posting again - hope you continue to do so.

I admit that although I thought we were well prepared before we arrived

(and not from watching TVeither), the practice has been an experience

that the theory didn't suggest.

Albeit only on the periphery, I'm now involved in the education system

here on a voluntary basis. It is now clear to me that things can be

very tough for incoming children of college age because however good

their language might be and however well motivated their parents might

be the differences in educational culture are not easily

overcome.  There aren't too many Brits around us with school aged

children, but what there is is a steady turnover of some of those people

coming in with children, having a completely awful time, and quitting

again. This does no-one any favours.

The French system can be extremely good for the right kinds of

children: for the very the bright who can fit in, it can provide

excellent opportunity for progression. For the vocationally minded,

ditto. But for the middle ground or for children who are simply a

little bit different it can just be several rather boring and

unpleasant years that don't really provide them with any lasting

benefit. Personally, I'd argue that was a lot like the education I

received in the UK a little over twenty years ago, but things have

changed there...progress is a lot slower here.

We've no regrets about moving here and placing our children in the

French system - it's the only one they've ever known. I'm under no

illusions that they are going to gain some kind of gold standard of

education simply by dint of being schooled in France; but I don't fear

for them either. That might be premature - ask me in a decade.

There may be many excellent reasons for desiring a family life in

France; certainly I think there are, but that is a seperate discussion.

Believing that an education would be gained of a quality over and above that which

would be recieved in the UK or elsewhere in Europe is not, however, one

of those reasons.

[Just Katie]

Ooops sorry Jon, we posted the same time.

[roz]

Hi Katie,

I have to say again, even apologise to SB, that I did not mean to be either rude or opinionated.  Not at all.  Far from it.  I am still trying to explain myself - obviously not very clearly.  Perhaps this might put it more into context :  I looked long and hard until I found the right person to give extra French lessons to my girls. These people are not so easy to find.  I pay good money for my kids to learn French grammar.  I want to.  So when I read someone saying that it, the grammar is 'useless' I can't understand it at all.  That is all. It's the only thing that I did not agree with in what SB was saying.  Sorry!!

 

 

[Miki]

Roz,

Firstly,  it is

abundantly clear that money has been no object, that in itself takes most of the

pressures off. The large percentage of others, will not have had the advantage of having a holiday home in France for many years before arriving, plus, you already had knowledge of  the area and also had  friends already in place. You are talking from a very, very priveleged position indeed.

You even have a house back in Dorset as the supreme escape route. And as one who has dealt with a vary varied spectrum of folks arriving here, I can assure you, any pressures you might think you have, are extremely miniscule to say the least to 99% of other families arriving.. You are indeed very lucky, that's for sure.

Secondly, you had very little choice of where to put the

girls in to School, the defining issue, actually was where your house in

France was, so apart from moving, you were lucky that the education you were happy

with, was local enough for the girls to go to…so NO real homework as far as

schooling was concerned there, sorry. You even narrowed it down to college/lycée,

so now, even less choice on your doorstep !! How lucky your choice was actually awaiting on the doorstep for you !!

 Now add on the music requirements and it gets even

narrower, sorry but your house all along has been the factor, the rest fell in to

place through sheer good luck. Otherwise you would most certainly would have had to move and that wou;ld certainly have meant a lot more leg work (take that as getting in the car and driving many hundreds of km's and spending an awful lot of time searching) if you were to go by your own criteria to find the right school. Not quite so simple now !!

Now perhaps, you see why I say having large slice of  luck has to play the major part. Whatever way luck happens to arrive, it needs to be there or...........

[quote] As I said on an earlier post, after just 2 terms my eldest passed her

Brevet and also obtained above the moyen to go ahead to Lycee [/quote]

 Two  terms !!…

incredible, surely she simply had to be fluent for her age when arriving in

France and passing the brevet (passing the brevet and gaining the moyen are one and the same

thing, just the average minimum to pass that’s all)  and no redoubling, just two terms and straight

on to Lycée……………forgive me if I do feel something is missing here ?

Roz To SB [quote] Surely, you looked into the schooling system in detail before you came

here?  You have to - in order to be fair to your kids.  Otherwise you

are ALL in for a great shock and how unprepared is that???? [/quote]

That was spoken by someone, as already stated, in a very highly priveleged position, it was pretty simple for you but for many others who may have had to come here due to work, to leave the UK for whatever reason, it is not so easy at all. And the main factor here about kids, you talk as if education here will be for their benefit, well you say you don't want a shock...so how far did you look as to what was available to them after Lycée/Uni....not much, no one does, so don't worry, you are not alone but, speaking on behalf of just a couple or so of us on here with that kind of experience, the odds are, they will do far better elsewhere and that includes their actual education ! As I have said before, look where 300,000 kids have gone to work now !

So why not cut out the middle man and stay in the UK, seems to be the bottom line now...Unless of course, it is the parents that are really the ones that want to come to France and use the kids education as the "reason". Not aimed at you or anyone in particular, merely another point of view !

This thing about the Dordogne and the Charente has me

shaking my head, so many folks living on the Charente border have issues with

the Dordogne but when it comes to telling friends and especially the owners of

gites, they will invariably say Dordogne/Charente border…!! Sorry again,  that was not aimed at you, it was just your comment about the girls not wanting to go to a school with any British kids (that is bizarre that kids should say that but still.....) and the Dordogne never fitted the bill, so to speak.

[Anyone for Cricket?]

I can't see how this post helps the situation at all, the poster was speaking from her own perspective and even it is privileged is there really any need to bang on about it?  It's her opinion which she is entitled to, this type of bullying is not necessary at all and only serves to kill off open discussions.  Who would now want to make any comment in favour of the system, which has worked well for some of us?

Incidentally simply because a poster has been on the forum for some time does not mean everyone should therefore agree with them 'XXX is a well respected member of the forum , posted for sometime, just leaves me asking AND??[:@]

[roz]

Hi again Miki,

Thanks for replying so promptly and at such length.   

 Please may I quote you and comment on one thing in particular?  I don't know how to work the 'insert' but I would like to comment on your 3rd para about the school that my girls attend being 'local enough for the girls to go'.  There was 'homework' involved here - as the school we chose is nearly 1 hours drive away from our house.  I drive 2 hours every morning and then again in the evening!!  Don't know about long hours for children - its quite demanding on me too!!   Your right I never looked further than Lycee/Uni - not here or in UK. Not yet!  Do you think that people should?  If so, how/what????   Also you do have to pass both the Brevet and achieve above the moyen to pass into Lycee (at my daughters school).  There was one French boy who failed to obtain one of these, I forget which, but he has had to stay behind.  She was not fluent.  Lucky and hardworking maybe.  Have to go on the schoolrun now.........

 PS. We are always short of money!

[Miki]

[quote user="jpe"]

I can't see how this post helps the situation at all, the poster was speaking from her own perspective and even it is privileged is there really any need to bang on about it?  It's her opinion which she is entitled to, this type of bullying is not necessary at all and only serves to kill off open discussions.  Who would now want to make any comment in favour of the system, which has worked well for some of us?

Incidentally simply because a poster has been on the forum for some time does not mean everyone should therefore agree with them 'XXX is a well respected member of the forum , posted for sometime, just leaves me asking AND??[:@]

[/quote]

It's called Living France forum. We all speak from our own perspectives, are you saying therefore that none should ever respond because that's what you intimate.

There was no bullying at all. You come in and post, not on the subject but on someones reply and it looks also that you have no knowledge of what many of us are debating. As far as killing off open discussion, this is one of the most legthy and better debates for a long time. It is a post like yours that hijacks the few posts that are of a lot of use to anyone thinking of doing what many others have already done.

As far as SB...she in so many ways, earned her rights to be respected, which is a rare thing on ANY forum........

[Teamedup]

Jon

 

Like you I helped out at school in every way possible right from the start. I think education is so important. And I have always said that kids who are slightly more intelligent than average and fit in to the rigid structure will do very very well in France, french kids included. Deviate, (so does that mean that those that deviate are devients?) and it is quite something else.  

 

Strangely french kids are always forgotten on these threads as it can be a bloody nightmare for them too if they don't fit in which is probably a far greater sin than a lack or being average or even having an excess of intelligence.

 

  And as I have said before,  I will regret my kids being educated in France for the rest of my days. 

[Just Katie]

JPE,  SB is indeed one of the more respected members of the forum AND?..... Well because she has lived in France for a long time, knows the system and gives sound advice but I thought I had already explained that. 

I stated my views on Roz response to her and apologised beforehand should I be wrong. Therefore I certainly do no consider this to be bullying, more pointing out where Roz had poured petrol on herself and handed someone a match. 

[Russethouse]

[quote user="jpe"]

I can't see how this post helps the situation at all, the poster was speaking from her own perspective and even it is privileged is there really any need to bang on about it?  It's her opinion which she is entitled to, this type of bullying is not necessary at all and only serves to kill off open discussions.  Who would now want to make any comment in favour of the system, which has worked well for some of us?

Incidentally simply because a poster has been on the forum for some time does not mean everyone should therefore agree with them 'XXX is a well respected member of the forum , posted for sometime, just leaves me asking AND??[:@]

[/quote]

We are pretty lucky on this forum, to have several people that have lived in France for many years and had children that have gone all through the system - over the years that experience has helped people time and time again. You may not agree with any of them but they are the ones who are speaking from a position of strenth.

Perhaps the 'AND 'is thats its worth at least giving some thought to what they say ?

[Patf]

jpe - your last point - I too wonder whether longevity  of time in France necessarily qualifies a person to have a balanced and correct point of view on all things french Each individual and family comes here with varied potential and copes in different ways. The types of school the children enter are also varied, and things change. There are no absolutes. Why not let the optimists get on with their lives, as I am glad to let the pessimists get on with theirs. Pat.

[KathyC]

It must be very difficult for new people to express an opinion on here if they're expected to know older members' history before they post. I now know more about SB than I used to and have a better appreciation of where she's coming from but there's no reason for newer people to do so. I also have to agree with Roz that  a statement like "it's all spent in cramming their heads full of useless things like French grammar" (this was SB's statement that provoked Roz to comment) is the sort of thing that many people would take exception to. Many people here might wish that the UK educational system would return to more traditional teaching of such things as grammar and worry less about the sort of "child centred" teaching that passes for education over here.

[Russethouse]

That would be great Pat if being an optimist or pessimist altered the employment prospects of young people in France !

I start from a position of believing that when you have a child it is your duty and your priority to do the very best for them, that means having some idea of what the future may hold.

 

[Just Katie]

[quote user="KathyC"]It must be very difficult for new people to express an opinion on here if they're expected to know older members' history before they post. [/quote]

Yes Kathy, you are quite correct, but unfortunately that is life isnt it?

Are we off topic again?[blink]

[Miki]

Roz.

I'll try to keep it short, there are still questions unanswered here but................

To drive two hours in the morning and again in evening, really defies logic, that to me, actually shows a lack of reasoning..or homework. Any problems with you or the car would surely lead to some pretty difficult times !

I don't know if people should look at what will happen to their kids in the longer term. As for how, all I can say is that from the experience I and others have, France offers very few opportunities to many kids, just read the papers, watch the T.V and the same stories are trawled out year after year "Why are our kids leaving France" it's obvious to people who come from more entrepreneurial societies  but change to make it reverse, will only happen if France goes through a kind of revolution, in the way its very structure in education and work afterwards are radically changed.

Passing the brevet is difficult for many French kids, so for your child to pass, without ever redoubling and all in just two terms and not fluent, is definitely incredible. One does not have to gain the brevet to pass on to Lycée. The moyen is simply the average mark of the class.

P.S Sorry, I don't want to appear rude but I don't think you are quite au fait with what being genuinely short of money really is [;-)]

[Russethouse]

I think you really have to look at the post in question, in total, the quality of the teaching, the lack of replacement teachers etc, you don't have to know anything about SB to see her dissatisfaction coming through.

 

 

[Miki]

[quote user="Patf"]jpe - your last point - I too wonder whether longevity  of time in France necessarily qualifies a person to have a balanced and correct point of view on all things french Each individual and family comes here with varied potential and copes in different ways. The types of school the children enter are also varied, and things change. There are no absolutes. Why not let the optimists get on with their lives, as I am glad to let the pessimists get on with theirs. Pat.

[/quote]

Perhaps you are right and it doesn't qualify anyone to be 100% right, just because they have been through it all but, experience of a subject, is worth a thousand stabs in the dark...which really does cheese me off. Schooling here does not generally tend to vary that greatly.

SB's child is in the Languedoc, TU is in the Rhone area, we had the Dordogne and Brittany for education. A lot more of us have talked about teachers, teaching methods and many differing criteria about schools in general, most is agreed upon. The ones that tend not to agree with a lot of what we talk about, are the ones who have kids at Maternelle and Primaire, or ones with newcomers with kids in early days in Collège where to be honest, "it all has yet to happen and be experienced" !!

[quote] There are no absolutes. Why not let the optimists get on with their

lives, as I am glad to let the pessimists get on with theirs. Pat.[/quote]

We don't claim bragging rights, I for one, simply tell it as we have seen it all happen, strangely, it all seems to coincide with others who have trod the same road, now why is that do you suppose? What is your experience in this and do you think then, that those with experience should keep quiet and let the newbies with questions that they would like answers to, simply get the " cor it's just great here"  replies ?

[KathyC]

But views on the quality of the teaching will often be subjective. I can quite see that for anybody who thinks that the UK has got it right educationally, the more formal and traditional style of French teaching may seem poor and I appreciate that many British kids may have problems adjusting to it. However, I think that Roz is right in saying that surely this is an issue that should have been looked into before deciding to move to France. Many others may feel that the French have got it right.

As far as replacement teachers are concerned, having seen my husband working as a supply teacher (childminder in reality) in the UK, I would consider that many schools would be better off saving their money. It's also quite common nowadays for unqualified teaching assistants to cover for absent staff, with varying results. Concerning PE in UK schools ; in 2004 the target was 2 hours per week and 50% of schools were not achieving even that!

[Miki]

[quote user="KathyC"]....................... However, I think that Roz is right in saying that surely this is an issue that should have been looked into before deciding to move to France. Many others may feel that the French have got it right.[/quote]

OK Kathy and how do you propose to find all that out ? Sit in the class all day, all week, perhaps for a month ? Maybe ask French people, that lets out a huge amount of Brits, one through the language problems and two, the French just accept it all for the greater part and will offer simply "c'est la France" and just maybe, someone will assist in letting you know the better schools in the area but better for who ?....far too many equations Kathy and still luck will be the major factor.

It's no win situation for people like me who will say it how they have found it all, same goes for SB, TU and others. Does anyone really take any notice, people are still cramming the car up and coming over with kids for a supposedly better education. How many folk do actually listen to something they seriously don't want to know the negatives about?  I hope just a few will but............

You say "many others may feel etc" in what respect ? I have never seen many come on and agree that, well not from the point of viw that they have had a child go from one end of the education and come out the other end and now through the education gained,  work in a good well paying  job. I cannot and will not say this doesn't happen as Brits coming to France with families, is virtually still in its early years.

All over the forum,  people ask and people will answer and others, will only post how the person answering should have posted [;-)]