Out of Date Car Tax

[Quillan]

From our 'Perspectives' magazine, a local publication sent out by the Prefecture in Carcassonne.

Working in conjunction with the United Kingdom licensing authority (I assume they mean the DVLC) the Aude Prefect has embarked on a 'get tough' campaign on UK citizens who flout both French and English law with regards to vehicle legality.

This action has been bought about by the increasing number of accidents during recent bad weather involving English cars and French nationals who have complained directly to him about the refusal of insurance companies to award damages. Many of these cars carry UK number plates but no car licence (again I assume they mean a valid UK tax disk) resulting in no insurance. Over 300 cars have now been identified within the prefecture whose owners will shortly be receiving letters demanding that they either remove the car from France or apply for French matriculation. They will be given one months grace after which the cars will be impounded and destroyed with the owner paying the cost. Where proof of illegality has taken place the owners will be prosecuted. The Prefect explained the under current French law all foreign cars must been deemed to be roadworthy and law abiding in their country of origin or in the case that the owner is resident in France must export the vehicle (from their country of origin) and imported it in to France.

He also stated that those cars with English plates and French Controle Technique and French Insurance are being illegally driven in France after the initial 3 month grace period in which time the owner should have applied for French matriculation.

I spoke to a Friend about this and my French insurer. French law and not the insurance companies demand that cars must be registered in France if the owner is resident here, that if you import a car in to France it must be put on French plates as soon as possible. The 90 day rule for insurance (some companies insure our car and tell you that you have 30, 60, 90 days to apply for matriculation) is because it's 90 days for residency. What seems to be happening is people are getting a CT and insurance, having a accident and then the insurance company refuses to pay out because the car insurance is over 3 months old and the car is still on UK plates.

I fear this will cause problems for some people, just glad I took my car back to the UK and sold it. I wonder if the UK authorities will be taking the same action back in the UK, I doubt it.

One thing, I am not sure if this will be implemented in the rest of France, probably not, and as far as I am aware it is only our Prefect who is forcing this action. However if he is successful then it would imply that people who go this route in other parts of France are actually driving illegally.

 

[Ron Avery]

About time too

But its not just the English who flout the law, I met a Frenchman this week with a RHD Peugout 205, with a UK plate, he had insurance and C/T ( he said) I asked why he had not registered it, he said it had been here for so long that it was too old to register and had some sort of grandfather rights   I thought that he was telling porkies personally

[Quillan]

I thing you are right in it not just being Brits, there are loads of Belgians down here with their cars who live here perminantly.

I was reading in the Daily Mail the other day that the EU has just passed a law that allows any country to also collect fines for offences commited in another country. Whilst the artical was talking about mainly motoring offences it also refered to a Swedish company that built part of a ferry terminal in Kent that colapsed killing a few people. They were fined £750,000 for Health and Safety negligence but could not collect the fine in Sweden, this new law will change that. It also means that France can collect the fines for having no Tax disc on UK cars etc when a fine has been issued from the UK. The only thing is apparently, is that the fines are kept by the country who collects them so, for example, if you are driving a UK registered car in France with no tax disc and you have recieved a fine in the UK, the French authorities would be able to collect the fine and keep it. Now will this mean they go the same way as in the UK where they will see this as just a way of making money out of the motorist? Could they ask you for the fine, give you a reciept and then you claim back the money from the UK? It will be interesting to see how ths will work.

[Ron Avery]

Quillan

Just one point, you say in your first post "is because it's 90 days for residency",

I believe that for "tax purposes" you are not treated as resident in France unless you live here for more than 183 days a year.  So does that mean that the channel hoppers who make sure they don't become residents will still be able to claim they are "on holiday"?

I heard yesterday from "an official source" that because of complaints about the lack of parking at the airports in the SW served by the low cost airlines caused by the amount of untaxed UK plated old bangers taking up parking spaces for weeks on end, they are now going to charge for parking, with a maximum stay of two weeks. It is assumed that any vehicles left beyond that time will be inspected and if illegal, removed. 

This is a great shame as free parking for picking up visitors, a weekend in Paris  or a week or two away in the UK was a bonus of using these little airfields, but has now been spoilt by the usual suspects.:

[Baz]

" that because of complaints about the lack of parking at the airports in the SW served by the low cost airlines caused by the amount of untaxed UK plated old bangers taking up parking spaces for weeks on end, they are now going to charge for parking, with a maximum stay of two weeks. It is assumed that any vehicles left beyond that time will be inspected and if illegal, removed. "

I am not surprised as in the past trying to collect or deliver visitors at Carcassonne Airport has been a nightmare trying to find parking, especially knowing that many vehicles have been parked for long term at an airport with limited parking facilities. I hope that they may allow 30 minutes free parking for the collection and delivery of passengers.

I do not think it is unreasonable to charge for parking at airports as it is the only way to control the available spaces for everyone.

Baz

[Quillan]

Both Carcassonne and Perpignan (the latter is hearsay as I don't use this airport) now charge and use automatic barriers, the type where you use a machine in the terminal and then have 15 mins to get out. They both (like Toulouse) give 30 mins free. As to removing the cars from the airport carparks, I saw them remove a BMW 520 Estate on a Y plate. The owner, thinking he was being cleaver, left it on trolley jacks and put the wheels in the car. Police response was to use a forklift truck to move the car. Only problem was they could not get the forks under the car so they went through the windows even though they didn't have a key to open the car. Hope the guy has really good insurance and that the insurance company does not state that the airport car park is private property. I have to say that the car had been there for around 3 months as I have seen it there several times, in the same spot over this time period. I guess the police will say they thought it was abandoned and was a terrorist threat?

Ron, people who 'channel hop' are OK because their cars will be impounded on their return to the UK if they have UK plates but no UK insurance, MOT and Tax, so one must assume they are legal. It's aimed at people who live here and abuse the system.

Last night they stopped all cars entering Limoux and checked documents. Our guests who were also stopped said they checked their documents including MOT and looked for the tax disk which had ran out. Fortunately the guy had his new one in the glove compartment which he had forgot to put on display.

[Quillan]

Both Carcassonne and Perpignan (the latter is hearsay as I don't use this airport) now charge and use automatic barriers, the type where you use a machine in the terminal and then have 15 mins to get out. They both (like Toulouse) give 30 mins free. As to removing the cars from the airport carparks, I saw them remove a BMW 520 Estate on a Y plate. The owner, thinking he was being cleaver, left it on trolley jacks and put the wheels in the car. Police response was to use a forklift truck to move the car. Only problem was they could not get the forks under the car so they went through the windows even though they didn't have a key to open the car. Hope the guy has really good insurance and that the insurance company does not state that the airport car park is private property. I have to say that the car had been there for around 3 months as I have seen it there several times, in the same spot over this time period. I guess the police will say they thought it was abandoned and was a terrorist threat?

Ron, people who 'channel hop' are OK because their cars will be impounded on their return to the UK if they have UK plates but no UK insurance, MOT and Tax, so one must assume they are legal. It's aimed at people who live here and abuse the system.

Last night they stopped all cars entering Limoux and checked documents. Our guests who were also stopped said they checked their documents including MOT and looked for the tax disk which had ran out. Fortunately the guy had his new one in the glove compartment which he had forgot to put on display.

[Washy]

Quillan,

Where can I get Perspectives from, we are in the wilds of the Haute Corbieres and not much new filters through here.  At least I have the internet but other friends would appreciate local news.

 

[Washy]

Regarding the Limoux check, were all cars being stopped or was it just British cars?  As the posting above mentions there are many Belgian, German etc. drivers in the same situation.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

The car bought in the UK without car tax cannot be taxed in the UK if the new keeper is living abroad,so then it must be on the road in france illegally until it is changed to french plates???

[Val_2]

At last. Hope this spreads to the rest of France as there are too many "ford transit" types out there flouting the laws and getting away with murder whilst the rest of us abide by the law and get our vehicles either changed to french plates properly or buy french.

[Esperaza]

Quillan,

I often use Perpignan airport and can confirm the free 15 minute pick-up/drop-off period.  You still need to process the parking ticket as normal but if you have been less than 15 minutes you're not asked for any money.

[Quillan]

Washy - It's delivered free by the postman along with the normnal 'junk mail'. All cars were stopped for all nationalities to ensure they were legal in France.

Outcast - Exactly the point which is why they are getting pulled, about time me thinks.

I'm also here in France and it's snowing, yet again.

[opas]

Not snowing here,in fact blue sky but the wind is cold.Just come back from spain(21miles away)16c,about 12c here.Still no french plates but french insurance could not get english road tax because I live in france but we are in the process of changing  the plates,then again we could always use the escort with is french reg`d,one day we will sell it.

[Richardbk]

From our 'Perspectives' magazine, a local publication sent out by the Prefecture in Carcassonne.

This action has been bought about by the increasing number of accidents during recent bad weather involving English cars and French nationals who have complained directly to him about the refusal of insurance companies to award damages.

I'm not sure this is related to just the recent bad weather.l have noticed that there have been quite a few controls in south east Haute Garonne and Aude over the last  months. We even got pulled over with diplomatic plates which is extremely unusual, not that they can actually do very much apart from check that the car is being driven by an authorised driver and that the driver is not on some wanted list. What have all you lot been up to down there ?

regs

Richard

[Will]

Same in South Manche, according to the local paper. And while looking at the vehicles, the gendarmerie has also been requested to check up on the legality of any business that the vehicle appears to be used in connection with, paying particular attention to English-owned vehicles - something else about which one could say 'not before time'. Though the report does mention an official view that often it's an inadvertent breach of the law, as the business regime which English people are used to is much more liberal than the French law.

The vehicle checks often seem to concentrate on French rather than foreign though. Mrs Conq has frequently been checked in controles, while clients following in an English vehicle have been waved through. I don't think she looks particularly dodgy, despite working (completely legally) in the agence immobilier business.

[Jdknott]

the initial entry says

"no car licence (again I assume they mean a valid UK tax disk) resulting in no insurance"

as far as I know it does not invalidate the car's insurance if there is no current UK road fund licence for the car. obviously the car needs an MOT and insurance, and the driver needs an appropriate driving licence.

Where does it say that insurance is null & void if there is no road fund licence?

Even in the UK it would be an offence liable to prosecution for (a) not having and (b) not displaying the tax disc, but the insurance would be valid.

It is a curious aspect of the SORN declaration that it does not say it is limited to use on public roads in the UK.

Can someone clarify this for me?

and before anyone jumps down my throat with self-righteous indignation, we are immatriculating our cars at the moment, with help from these pages previously given.

John Knott

[Quillan]

John,

I think you will find that part of the information comes from the DVLA website and/or by phone to them and your insurance company.

Briefly, as far as the UK is concerned, if your car has UK plates then it's a UK car and as such much abide by UK law in as much as it must carry a valid road fund licence (tax disk). To get this you would be required to show proof of a MOT (if the car is of age to require one) and a valid UK insurance policy (a French policy is not acceptable).

The SCORN is for, and I quote "If your vehicle is not used or kept on a public road" this includes if your car is not in the UK. Being that you will be declaring for a 12 month period by default and if the car is abroad the question asked is 'why have you not exported it'.

The question of the insurance not being legally valid is not the law but the insurance company. You will find in the small print of your insurance documents that driving your car illegally, by that they mean whilst banned or without a valid MOT or car tax, your insurance company does not cover you. Driving without insurance is a criminal and not a driving offence (unlike Driving licence, car tax and MOT).

If you are in any doubt whatsoever I would strongly recommend that you contact both the DVLC and your insurance company.

 

[Coco]

[quote]At last. Hope this spreads to the rest of France as there are too many "ford transit" types out there flouting the laws and getting away with murder whilst the rest of us abide by the law and get our ...[/quote]

I agree Val.  A Brit neighbour of ours (in his French registered car) recently had his wing mirror ripped off, and the side of the car scratched by a UK registered M reg car hurtling through the country lanes of Manche.  The woman got out of the car and started hurling abuse in French at our friend.  He responded in English, to which she replied that she had not done the damage and that he had obviously had an accident earlier and was trying to blame her.  When he asked for her insurance details she refused to give them to him and drove off.  We've since seen her driving round the local area.  In fact, we followed her out of the Champion car park yesterday and tried to follow her to see where she lived, but after doing in excess of 120kph round country lanes in the snow we decided to give up as the distance between us and her was continuing to grow - but it just backs up what our friend told us about the way she was driving!!

There are an aweful lot around here that will get "done" if they extend this to Manche.  I personally know of at least 5 people who have been here for over a year on Brit plates and have no qualms whatsoever about it!

[Russethouse]

>>as far as I know it does not invalidate the car's insurance if there is no current UK road fund licence for the car. <<<

I asked a relative, (who is a magistrate and regularly does a stint on motoring offences) about this and she told me that it most cases not having current UK road fund DOES invalidate your insurance, as does not having an up to date MOT.

[BJSLIV]

I supposer that the logic that people apply is that as the car isn't being used on a public road in the UK then they can declare it as SORN.

But if the car has left the country for good then it should be declared as such and a declaration of export should be made.

If it is in France on UK plates , but has already been declared as either SORN or Exported then it needs to be registered in France.

The right to circulate in France on UK plates only applies to cars that are legally allowed to be driven in the UK ie Taxed, Insured (and MOTed).

If the car is illegal in the UK then its not legal in France either.

 

[Jdknott]

thanks for that, Quillan, but there's nothing in my insurance policy wording requiring the car to be blessed with a UK road fund licence. So my insurance is valid, otherwise we wouldn't drive it. Of course.

The policy does say that I must do my best to keep it roadworthy (which I do, with help from the regular MOT test).

I don't see that there's a problem here.

Whenever the car is in UK it has a UK road fund licence, and during any gaps in the road fund tax it is not on UK roads - but does have a UK issued SORN.

While that goes on, we wrestle our way through the paperwork to become immatriculated.

John

[BJSLIV]

 

From the DVLA

What if my vehicle licence is due to expire while I am abroad?

If you are going to be abroad when your tax disc is due to expire you may apply to relicense it up to 2 calendar months in advance. Advance applications can be taken or posted to a Main Vehicle Licence issuing Post Office® branch or DVLA Local Office. Applications must be made on a vehicle licence application form (V10). If you are making a postal application you must also submit a letter explaining why you are applying to relicense your vehicle so far in advance. If you give an address abroad the new tax disc can be sent to you there. If you are abroad but the vehicle is off the road in the UK, you may also declare SORN to DVLA at that time. If a vehicle is abroad when the licence expires but is still registered in the UK you must relicense your vehicle. If you are no longer registered in the UK you must comply with the licensing regulations of the country concerned. For further information please refer to "Unlicensed Vehicles and Continuous Registration

 

So they expect you to keep it taxed while its abroad. Or if you abroad and the car is in the UK you cann SORN it.

[Quillan]

Coco - I don't actually see a problem with a UK registered car being driven in France providing it is currently UK legal and the UK insurance permits you to drive unlimited within the EU. This is perfectly legal. The problem comes when the car is not UK legal and is being driven in France.

John - Two things, declaring a SORN and then driving your car in France is illegal, read what I have already quoted which is directly of the Vehicle Licence Application/SORN Declaration V11 form. You cannot drive a UK registered car on any public road be it in the UK or France when you have declared a SORN and not paid road tax). Obviously you don't believe me so I would check with the DVLC if I were you but what you are doing is illegal.

The insurance is another matter you should look in to if you have UK insurance, I would phone them up and explain the situation and I am willing to bet a years takings that you will not be covered by your UK insurance if you are driving without a road fund licence disk with a SORN declared and the car is in France.

You said you didn't want anyone to have a go, well I am having a go, what you are doing is totally irresponsible and illegal. It's quite clear you are one of those typical brits that wants to try and work round the system, well you can't. What’s even worse is that you could quite easily have an accident through no fault of your own (ice or similar) kill and/or maim somebody and their family won't get a penny.

BJSLIV - You beat me to it but there you go John, it's illegal, proof at last.

[Quillan]

[quote]Hello But does anyone actually care? Except a few brit immigrants who seem to be so good they ought to be canonised. I am pitching for the clamping concession at Carca airport. Regards and be good. ...[/quote]

No not really untill you are the one that has your car hit or at worse your wife/partner or kids killed. I know there are suppose to be loads of French driving illegally but it still does not make it right.

If you ge the concession can I do the removals, I rather fancy having a go with a fork lift, wicked.