Car totalled - other drivers fault - why are WE out of pocket?.

[Wendy]

Ok, I am fuming at the moment. My partner was driving my son to school in May and pulled out to over take a very old man driving a very old tractor. With clear vision and no oncoming traffic he was just passing the tractor when the old guy suddenly turned left across his path with out indication, colliding with our car and sent it into a spin and it overturned several times landing on its roof. Thankgod they were not injured. The old guy admitted he did not look in his mirror or indicate. The car was a writeoff and towed to a local garage where it has been since 23 May. Our car was only 18 months old, in perfect condition, and we have had to resort to hiring a rental car since May as a car is vital to our business, we live in a isolated area and a car is absolutely necessary to us as well. This, we were told, was okay by the insurance firm and we would be reimbursed. We have clocked up nearly 1000 euros in rental fees which we have had to pay out of our pocket. We have now been informed our car was only worth 3000 euros and that is all we are getting back. PLUS, they will take out money for the garage fees AND minus the money they will 'reimburse' us for the rental car!.[:@]  We were never informed we would have to pay for the car standing in a crumpled heap in a car lot.

All the while, the tractor driver is still driving around, no damage to his machine at all, no loss of business or money...and we are the ones wearing all the loss!

Someone please tell me that this cannot really be correct...how do we protest this?. Before I grind my backteeth down to nothing!![:@]

[Andyphilpott]

Your first step should be to read your policy very carefully.

You should not expect to be informed of what the insurer will not pay as they think it is reasonable to assume that you have read the policy and therefore know what you are likely to get. Whether you or I think it is reasonable is a matter of indifference to them.

I cannot speak for French insurers, but an English policy will usually set out exactly how long a hire care will be made available. It will also say what costs are covered following an accident. Incidentally it is usual for a garage to charge storage charges pending a repair, but that is usually covered by the insurance. As regards the value they put on the written off vehicle I guess that can be checked in Glass's Guide - anything similar in France. 3000 Euros for an 18 month old car seems to me to be very low - was it  a Trabant?!!!!

Insurance companies should not be trusted under any circumstances; always get clarification of any points you do not fully understand and accept from the insurer from the taking out of the policy until you replace it. And get it in writing. They will often refuse to write so simply send them a letter by special delivery (for proof of posting) setting out your understanding of the position and keep a copy with the policy. Then if it comes to a dispute you at least have something to hit them with. Just be entirely sure that I can prove that they have the letter, I would usually take the opportunity to deal with any issues at the same time as enclosing the premium. If the cheque is presented they can hardly argue they did not get the letter.

Andy

[Bob T]

Can I ask if the car was a French sourced vehicle, or a RHD import.

[jc]

Is this one of these marvellously cheap companies that offer everything that people keep telling us about?People in the UK are finally finding that you don't get owt for nowt(particularly from insurance companies);when they say we'll beat the best quote by £100-ask yourself how they can do it.

[Val_2]

Weird payout. We got just under  that for repairs to an 11 year old van that my OH had an accident in nearly two years ago now. Sounds like you have a very basic cheap policy and not for the real value of your car unless it was a RH drive and not properly registered.

[Wendy]

Thanks for the replies. Its a Suzuki and we bought it in Paris brand new 18 months back for 8,500 euros. The car was fully insured with a French company - not sure what the partner paid exactly in premiums but it wasnt one of those el cheapo deals at all. The car will cost 6000 to repair but insurance man says its not economic for them to do it so want to pay us 3 grand. We dont mind paying out to rent a car - we were told to right ahead and do that, or even paying the local garage, but I always thought it was the job of your firm to recover the costs from the other side. We are considering taking legal action against the other driver if we get no joy out of this, it was a miracle my son and partner were not seriously injured. And the guy was not even tested for DUI.

[jc]

Recovering your costs?in the old days it was-now they charge extra for it and call it "legal protection!!".

[Bugsy]

Wen, are you confident that your insurance company has accepted that your 'other half' was in no way to blame?

The onus of safety, when overtaking, is with the driver doing the overtaking. If the tractor driver was turning into a junction or even an entrance to a field they may be of the opinion that it was not a safe overtake, even if he failed to signal/see you. If this was the case they may have apportioned a percentage of blame to both parties.

 

[Ron Avery]

Having been through all this in France I can tell that you do not have to accept the offer, you can contest it, go and see your local insurance agent.  Valuations and write offs are normally done by a valuer whose company often take the car away from the garage for disposal, but as no other car was involved in my accident I skidded on snow on a bend and hit a tree stump, I  took the blame.

With some policies you do not get car hire fees or recovery costs refunded if you do not contact the numbers on your paperwork in the event of an accident, I know it is difficult when there has been an accident to remember all this, but you have to fight them as I had to, to recover this cost as the policy did not say that  this was the case.

You normally also get an offer to buy the car for a discounted write off price, you can get it repaired yourself if you want or sell it for parts, this is normally a percentage of the repair cost, so are you sure that this is not what you are looking at?  The valuation is, as others have pointed out, very low if the car is only 18 months old.

On the bright side if the accident has been deemed to be your O/Hs fault, which some would  see as a distinct possibility given the described circumstances, the loss is only 3,000€ so your premiums will only rocket for four or five years as the premium you pay after an accident is determined by the value of the loss.  Some companies write it off quicker than others,  for example Groupama take longer than CA's insurance to get back to a "normal" premium so it might pay to shop around.  Your car was not insured with a company with three letters,  the middle one an X by any chance?

[Wendy]

I hear what you are saying, but even the police agreed it was the tractor drivers fault. One other thing...you know how both drivers have to fill out those forms? He and his daughter, plus her husband, turned up at our place later that day to assist him in filling out the accident form...because his eyes are not that good. And yet he is still driving that same vehicle on that stretch of road. [blink]

Sorry, but he is not getting away with this.

[Wendy]

The accident was definately not my OH's fault. Not sure what the company's name is but I will check it...after I finish serving the evening meals tonight. No 'X' in it thats for sure. No worries, next time we wont bother with a French insurance firm at all. We already know that the law here exists to protect big business.

Will get back to you on this soon, thanks heaps Ron!.[:)]

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Andyphilpott"]

Your first step should be to read your policy very carefully.

[/quote]

Until you follow Andy's advice, everything so far on this thread has been pure speculation.

If your policy says that you will be reimbursed 50% (or whatever) of the market value of the car less storage charges and car hire, then that's what you signed up for and that's all you're entitled to....

 

[Wendy]

Hi SD, the car was insured for 8000, it also had a towbar adding extra cost. It was insured for business use as well as personal use, it was not insured cheaply and actually cost a packet. There were heaps of extras in the policy including car hire so that is why we chose them. We left Axa because they refused to insure the car for business use.

We have contacted the assessor and disagreed with his market price on our car. We all know the ridiculous price the French ask for used cars and there is no way we could replace that car for 3000 euros. He has said that 'he is an expert and has qualifications' in his field. Today, we turned down the offer of a pissing 3000 odd eros and asked him to find the exact same car for the price he claims is currant. We have offered to take delivery of that car at our expense.

No answer so far. And there will not be. We do not plan to play these people at their own game.

This is highway robbery.

[trumpet]

Did you overtake the tractor, at a junction or entrance he was going to turn in to. As if you did even though he did not indicate, you will find that you are also in the wrong. A friend of mind had the same thing happen. In the UK. He overtook a car that did not indicate to turn. The police reminded him that you do not overtake approaching a junction.......of any sorts. Flippin annoying though init!

Ahh sorry Bug bear just seen your reply. Already covered it then.

[Sunday Driver]

On the contrary, you do need to play them at their game.  Rather than follow your emotions, you need to follow the correct claims procedure.  As Ron says, the valuer will be an independent contractor, so there's little point in arguing with him.  Your contract is with the insurance company.

They have made you an offer, you consider it unacceptable, so you have sent them a written refusal.  If they continue to offer below your expectations (according to the precise terms of the policy), then tell them you intend to write to the médiateur d'assurance.  This may well prompt them into agreeing a settlement that is satisfactory to you.

To take advantage of the mediation service, you must have exhausted all avenues of appeal with your insurer and you must not have already commenced legal proceeding against them.

Your insurance contract will contain the name and address of their médiateur, or you can obtain the name and address of  médiateur by writing to Médiation Assurance, 11 rue de Rochefoucauld, BP907, 75424 PARIS. 

The médiateur will require full details of your dispute including all correspondance.  If your insurer is affiliated to GEMA (Groupement des entreprises mutuelles d'assurance), then his decision is binding on them.  If they are affiliated to FFSA (Fédération française des sociétés d'assurance), then the decision is not binding, but is habitually accepted by the insurers.

All of this presupposes that it was a no fault accident - which is still not entirely clear....

 

[Wendy]

Depends what you mean by a junction. There was no  facility to turn right as it is fenced. There was an unmarked dirt track to the left that crossed over the railway line - I stress it was 'unmarked' to the traffic going in our direction and we have photographs of the site to prove this. The driver also drove off after the collision up the track and returned 15 minutes later. We travel this road every day and there is not one indication that tractors, or any service vehicles need to turn into it.  It is not a normal access road. The school bus was directly behind us and I know what a cowboy that driver is...would have been spectacular if he had been in our place!. And loaded with kids.

Either way, he was at fault and admitted it. To us and to the police.

 

[Wendy]

Thanks SD, and also to all here. Basically, all we want is to replace our car as we are lost without it, many of our guests need airport and train pickups etc so it is vital. We can replace it for 6,500 if we go for a used car with a dodgy history. But 3000 is ridiculous. And our car was in mint condition. It just is so bloody infuriating when I see that old codger driving that same machine on that same stretch of road knowing that he is dangerously half blind at least. And he is not out of pocket one bit.

I have noted down that info SD and thanks for that.

Will keep you posted!.

[Catalpa]

A sort of Glass's equivalent in France is L'Argus (or Argos). It carries most car model / years / prices. The difference (so I understand) is the prices quoted are a base price... cars are often expected to sell for more than the Argos / Argus price. But it's a guide...

[Anton Redman]

 

Agree with all of the above but suggest you also :

See your 'local' Suzuki dealer and ask them for a written estimate of how much they could source a replacement car of similar age condition and mileage. Ask them if the could please put it in writing. Also as above check the Argus for the price. And check the online for prices and print those off. Include a copy of the above in your lettter explaining why you feel the valuation is too low.

[Ron Avery]

Just for information, the EU accident reporting form used in France is completed by both or all drivers involved in an accident.  It does not apportion blame,  it is statement of what happened and signed by both (all) drivers, it is not compulsory to complete it but by completing it no blame is admitted or accepted.  It is up to the Insurers to apportion blame.

Maybe Wen, you  should make your concerns about the accident and the driver known to the local police/gendarmerie if no prosecutions was brought as a  result of the accident, but there are a lot of old boys in tractors around on French roads.........

[Wendy]

Thanks Anton and Ron, I shall act on your advice. 

The old codger was only able to 'sign' because his daughter pointed to the spot on the paper!.

So from what I gather here, you can cause a serious accident, almost causing death, and yet escape all responsibility just because: you are French, old, half blind and drive a tractor!.

Now I know what to drive in future...a bloody tractor!!.

I just wonder what the outcome would be if we were French...

 

 

[suein56]

[quote user="wen"]

The old codger was only able to 'sign' because his daughter pointed to the spot on the paper!.

[/quote]

Not trying to side with the old guy - but perhaps he cannot read. A not uncommon occurrence in elderly, countryside folk sometimes; IMHO, of course.

Sue

[Sunday Driver]

If, as you say, the gendarmerie attended the scene of the accident, then if the "old codger" is to blame then they will enforce the law as appropriate.  Unless you know the outcome of their investigation, you can't assume that he is escaping all responsibility...

 

 

[Wendy]

Well, I am in the process of making sure he does not drive ANYTHING in the future.

[Danny]

What are you going to do, break his legs?! Seriously, though, that's not for you to do. It is regrettable that someone like that is still on the road but you have reported the accident and it is out of your hands now. How do you think you can stop him driving if the police haven't? What is your process and do tell if it works 'cos we'll all be at it.

Jane