Its not on UK roads, so I dont need tax do I?

[dave21478]

There is a thread title sure to grab your attention!

I wonder what the percentage of Brits on France who take the piss with car registration really is?

While killing time at Carcassonne airport this morning, I took a quick stroll up and down one of the rows in the carpark. A rough count showed 22 UK registered cars. 2 of them had valid tax discs - The rest were either months (sometimes years) out of date or missing - several sported CT and or insurance stickers, many had nothing at all.

Yes, Im sure it possible some of them are "in the process" of registering, but I would guess most were flouting the law.

Also spotted two obviously abandoned UK cars - an old Volvo 360GT and a Mondeo Aspen. Flat tyres starting to collect moss, and general dirt accumulated would suggest they have been there a very long time indeed.

Also spotted this - 3 years old and a nicely specced model would suggest its obviously not abandoned - I think someone is in for a nasty surprise upon their return....

[IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/short/DSC00328.jpg[/IMG]

The scrotes only got 3 of the 4 wheels.

 

Its not just at the airport either - I have been spending a distressing amount of time at my local BricoDepot, where a pair of UK Transit vans are a regular sight - UK plates, nothing in the windcreen and their hanging condition would suggest they havent seen an MOT / CT inspection for several years. How do they get away with it? Since Xmas, I have twice been stopped at checkpoints in French cars, where my papers were given a workout. Do the cops turn a blind eye to Uk cars, or is the average Gendarme just not well clued up about the regulations?

 

[powerdesal]

Probably the latter, how many UK policemen (sorry ....policepersons) would you expect to be aware of the French vehicle regs?

I think they are only interested in production of a UK (European ) driving licence, but the ' TRWYDDED YRRU ' does cause a bit of confusion.

[Quillan]

About 5 years ago I called the DVLA about this exact point. I am sure if somebody has the time to search through the forum they will find the original post.

The basics of the conversation were this. If a car has UK plates, wherever it is in the world then it must comply with UK law i.e. have valid UK insurance, Tax disc and MOT certificate where applicable. They left me in no doubt that this obligatory. We won't go down the old French insurance route (it must be OK to leave in on UK plates or why else would the French insurance company sell me insurance) as we have been there many, many, many times before.

I think that all these cars/vans should be crushed immediately with no questions asked (like they do in Spain from time to time, have a blitz). Personally I blame the French police/gendarmes for letting people get away with it. Its so simple, come back with complete UK documents or get it registered in France, you have four weeks. If you don't come back with them your car/van will be marked for scrapping and wherever it is in France it will be taken with no warning.

And yes (as some will remember) I did keep a UK car in France for 2 and 1/2 years, it was UK taxed and insured (with unlimited time in the EU) and when its first MOT was due I took it back to the UK and sold it then bought a French car.

As said so many times before it is illegal but its OK till there's an accident, lets hope its none of mine or others families that get injured which is what frightens me the most.

The sooner the EU instigates a European central system for registering, insuring and testing cars the better.

As far as Carcassonne Airport are concerned if I were the director I would have the blinking things towed out on to the side of the road and let the gendarmes deal with them.

 

[JMB]

Is this a new activity, prowling around car parks examining uk reg cars for evidence of a current "tax disc". Is it a bit like train spotting? Is there any special dress code?  Do you really have to be terminally sad to do it or can anyone join in?  

[suein56]

[quote user="JMB"]Do you really have to be terminally sad to do it or can anyone join in?  [/quote]

What I find upsetting is that these abandoned cars not only take up space at ferry terminals and airports - I am thinking especially of Caen Ouistreham - but look so shoddy and delapidated that they make the ferryport look uncared for.

So, basically, I agree, in principal, with them being towed away; but who is going to pay for that? Why should the port authorities or even the French police bear that cost?

Sue

[Twingoman]

I remember being in Caen Ferryport prior to the D-Day anniversary celebrations in 2004, and there were letters on all the cars, saying that the car park need to be cleared by a certain date, for the celebrations.

As there were a large number of possibly abandoned UK reg cars, if they were cleared, then they were probably disposed of.

[Pierre ZFP]

Good bit of scrap metal value in a car and I bet you wouldn't have to do have a blitz more than twice. As was said above, these cars are just perfectly fine until they're involved in an accident.  We all pay extra on our car insurance to cover uninsured losses and that hacks me off too.

[Ron Avery]

"Is this a new activity, prowling around car parks examining uk reg cars for evidence of a current "tax disc"

No not new, arrogant, thick, ignorant people who have no regard for the wellbeing of their fellow men or the laws of the country that they live in, have been doing this for years, the problem is there are more of them now. 

However, you have to be downright thick/arrogant/and or sad to think that these tight p****ks running an uninsured wreck around the roads of France is something to be proud of or condoned, for me its a national disgrace.[:@]

I think the DVLA should follow up on all reports on SORN'd cars being used in France and do the people at the addresses used for the SORN for aiding an abetting an offence,  and also do them for the back tax, that would soon stop them.  The French police also have to take a share of the blame but they probably find it hard to differentiate between genuine holiday makers and scroats in wrecks, the genuine brits with insured and legal cars here have no such problems.[:@]

[Chancer]

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed but why is it thought that these cars are uninsured?

I agree with Dave regarding the controls by the G-men whenever I am pulled it is permit de conduire and controle technique demanded whilst the other checks the windscreen vignette and tyres.

In the past when I was visiting and also  before I had registered my car only the permit de conduire was asked for.

[Quillan]

The value of the scrape from the car should cover the costs of getting it removed, they can use a contractor.

The thing is it does effect us all indirectly via our insurance premiums.

I personally don't go looking for these cars but I don't have any problem pointing them out to the police or gendarmes if they are about. I am also worried about one of mine being struck down by one of these idiots. Many of the van drivers are builders so if they can't be bothered to sort out their van properly what type of work do they turn out?

Ooops seems my post has crossed, sorry.

It is a disgrace and it does reflect on all of us who keep within the law, we all get tared with the same brush.

[dave21478]

[quote user="JMB"]Is this a new activity, prowling around car parks examining uk reg cars for evidence of a current "tax disc". Is it a bit like train spotting? Is there any special dress code?  Do you really have to be terminally sad to do it or can anyone join in?  [/quote]

 

No raincoat, thermos, bowl-cut hairdo or notepad required - just 5 minute to kill on a sunny morning waiting for a flight to arrive - a walk from where you park to the terminal, having a look around you. Its not difficult. I find cars interesting, that may be "sad" to some, but Im not the kind to give a stuff what others think anyway. fact, with a tiny bit of observation, its hard NOT to spot all these illegal cars.

 

 

 

I had spotted this beaut last week and was hoping to leave a note asking if they would consider selling it, as I know someone who is after something similar, but sadly it was gone.

[IMG]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc297/dave21478/short/DSC00320.jpg[/IMG]

 

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Quillan"]

If a car has UK plates, wherever it is in the world then it must comply with UK law i.e. have valid UK insurance, Tax disc and MOT certificate where applicable. They left me in no doubt that this obligatory.

[/quote]

There is at least one Mercedes in Sharjah with UK plates on it, and a fair amount of heavy construction equipment also carrying UK plates. I wonder if they were nicked in the UK from sites and exported to meet the (now past) demand for construction kit here in the UAE.

[Quillan]

[quote user="J.Rs gone native"]

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed but why is it thought that these cars are uninsured?

[/quote]

Because in the small print of the French insurance somewhere it says that you have a set limit, normally 30 days, to get your car on to French plates and like UK insurance companies if you don't comply the insurance is no longer valid yet like all insurance companies they don't object to taking the money off you. I am of course aiming my comments at those cars on UK plates with a French CT and insurance sticker in the window. I always wonder why they get this far then don't do the final step of registering their car in France, perhaps its all the scaremongering that people give out about it costing a fortune and being very difficult to do.

I can't answer for why the Gendarmes only asked you for your driving licence.

[Quillan]

[quote user="powerdesal"][quote user="Quillan"]

If a car has UK plates, wherever it is in the world then it must comply with UK law i.e. have valid UK insurance, Tax disc and MOT certificate where applicable. They left me in no doubt that this obligatory.

[/quote]

There is at least one Mercedes in Sharjah with UK plates on it, and a fair amount of heavy construction equipment also carrying UK plates. I wonder if they were nicked in the UK from sites and exported to meet the (now past) demand for construction kit here in the UAE.
[/quote]

Perhaps they have been legally exported from the UK and somebody left the old plates on. There is as far as I know no law that makes you hand in your old UK plates in when the car leaves the country as an export. It could be a hundred and one thinks really. It could be a dodgy deal for example. [;-)]

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="J.R gone native"]

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed but why is it thought that these cars are uninsured?

I agree with Dave regarding the controls by the G-men whenever I am pulled it is permit de conduire and controle technique demanded whilst the other checks the windscreen vignette and tyres.

[/quote]

Apart from the sticker on the windscreen what other evidence of a CT do you have to carry, isn't the CT date also recorded on the Carte Grise?

Uninsured is assumed if the car has no CT or no UK road tax or no French Insurance vignette, a reasonable assumption I would think.

[JMB]

Why do you assume a uk reg car with no road tax is uninsured.

[cooperlola]

Quillan, the insurance industry itself must take some of the blame for this.  Back in the day, when we first moved here and before I had discovered the wealth of knowledge which is the Living France forum, we found ourselves in the position of having to bring our UK reg' car here at the last minute, when the purchaser we had lined up backed out three days before we were due to quit Britain forever.  I therefore had to fix up the insurance very quickly.  The French company I persuaded over the phone to insure me, told me I had six months to complete the registration process.  Thus we did not hurry, knowing nothing of the 30 day rule, which now of course I understand.  Thus we bumbled around illegally for four months or so - having stupidly trusted the insurance company to give us sensible and correct info'.  If they'd said a month - we would have done it in a month - no problem.

JMB - that's a good question.  Is it a requirement for valid insurance, that a car have road tax?  Morally, it's due but legally?  Dunno, but somebody will...[Www]

[Benjamin]

[quote user="JMB"]Why do you assume a uk reg car with no road tax is uninsured.[/quote]

If you've ever seen UK TV programmes where a police car uses automatic number plate recognition then you'll also know that very often there are numerous other offences that come to light when the vehicle and driver are stopped and investigated.

[Chancer]

Your are right Ron, I confused myself, they checked the insurance and CT by the vignettes and I am only asked for my license, the same whenever I was stopped driving a UK registered car but they never ever bothered about insurance, tax well its a bit irrelevant really from their point of view.

I wish to try and dispel once agian this myth that a car is uninsured by virtue of being untested, not registered within 30 days, untaxed or SORN'ed or whatever else, as far as 3rd party claims are concerned if a car is insured these claims will always be met no matter who the insurer, no;matter who is driving even in the ridiculous case of a stolen vehicle involved in an accident being chased by the police after a burglary, the burglar passenger sucessfully claimed for personal injury against the car owners insurer. Of course the insurers will probably use any excuse to refute the claim of the insured under technicalities as above.

If we are talking 17 - 25 year olds I agree that there will be a relatively high proportion of unsinsured drivers, my values have certainly changed since I was younger, the owners of thes cars left at the airport IMO are likely to be middle aged or retired, I would very much doubt that they are uninsured, if they wre to be then they are the sort of people that still have the values of their tenage years and are more likely to park at Malaga airport.

Actually when you think about it who exactly are the mugs? Certainly those that retain UK plates yet return every year (as opposed to 2 years) for a test certificate and pay road tax every year instead of a one off payment for the carte grise, but these guys at the airport save the cost of the carte grise and the bi-yearly CT should they choose safe in the knowledge that it will never be demanded by the G men.

I reckon these cars are insured and owned by people more canny than me.

[Quillan]

[quote user="JMB"]Why do you assume a uk reg car with no road tax is uninsured.[/quote]

If memory serves do you not have to produce a current insurance certificate and MOT (if relevant) to get a tax disc in the UK? So a car not having a tax disc could indicate that the owner does not have any insurance. I was also under the impression that if you don't have a valid tax disc or MOT then your insurance becomes invalid. I am not up to date with the current situation in the UK but I think we had this discussion some time back and people with UK policies seemed to confirm this to be true.

Changing the subject slightly I have used two companies in France for insurance and both wanted to see and copy my driving licence. I had assumed that this was to see how many points I had (or didn't have) but somebody told me that you can't get insurance in France unless you do have a driving licence. I would be interested to know if this is true.

Cooperlola - Yes you are right about insurance companies but then surely if this is the law in France (the 30 day rule) then why do not the police/gendarmes actually do something about it, why are they so reluctant? The don't seem to have a problem setting up speed traps etc so why not jump on a few of these idiots and get nasty with them. If they start crushing cars that should pull a few in to line. My BIL has recently registered his car in Spain after being there nearly 3 years. Why did he do it, because Alicante gave all Brits a 60 day amnesty to register or remove their cars after which they would crush them on sight. Certainly focused his brain and it was nowhere near as expensive as other Brits had told it would be.

[powerdesal]

This may require a new topic title but here goes anyway......

Has anyone ever had their uk plate 'cloned', our UK insurance Co say a claim has been lodged against our number, the car was in France at the time of the supposed 'incident'. They dont seem inclined to take very swift and effective action and are hence refusing a letter of no claims entitlement until the matter is 'clarified'....What can we do?

[gosub]

http://www.insurance.fr/[8-)]

[mint]

Whilst it's true that you do have to produce a current insurance cert and MOT cert in order to tax your car in the UK, both those certs only need to be current when you go to the PO or on line to tax the car.

Once the tax is in place, whose to say you need to keep the insurance going?

As for vehicles that are SORNed and KEPT in France, anyone has any idea how many of these there are?

And has no one heard the argument that it's legit because the car is "off British roads"?

I'm not going to contribute to this thread anymore as I have been traumatised by all the arguments I have had with fellow Brits on just this issue and I came to France for the peace and tranquillity![:D] 

[allanb]

[quote user="JR"]I wish to try and dispel once agian this myth that a car is uninsured by virtue of being untested, not registered within 30 days, untaxed or SORN'ed or whatever else, as far as 3rd party claims are concerned if a car is insured these claims will always be met...[/quote]Yes, but that law is for the protection of innocent third parties, not for the protection of motorists who don't comply with their insurance policies.

I have a suspicion that if your insurer is forced by law to pay a third party in these circumstances, he may have grounds to sue you to get his money back.  It's not a risk I would take.

[Sunday Driver]

Isn't the root cause of the problem the fact that many people who decide that moving to France will be wonderful actually have little idea of the rules for living here?  Most of them don't appreciate that they are actually foreign immigrants and therefore subject not only to the immigration regulations but to all the other rules which apply to living in France.

How many posts do we read along the lines of 'well, we're here at last, now what do I do about getting a job, how do I get into the healthcare system, how do I claim unemployment benefit, is my £90 a week pension sufficient to live on, do I have to declare myself and pay tax?  Oh, and by the way, I don't speak French'......

At best, they've spent their holidays visiting France and they imagine that living here is just an extension of that holiday.  If they don't have access to a 'Sunday Driver' who is prepared to spend his free time researching all the facts, translating everything into English and serving it up on a plate for them, then it's easy for them to assume that they're OK to just carry on driving their car as it is.

As regards enforcement by the authorities, I'm sure their priorities are directed towards more critical issues such as reducing road deaths through speeding, etc...

However, think about it...

It only takes a fatal incident involving, say, a child being knocked down by a UK plated 'resident' vehicle which fails to stop. 

Imagine the situation -  foreign registration number, so contact the DVLA - they only have the driver's former UK address - no forwarding address held therefore unable to trace the killer - newspapers/TV get a hold of the story - national outcry against irresponsible UK expats flouting the law byrunning around in untraceable cars and escaping punishment for road deaths (and speeding fines whilst we're on about it!!)  - Sarkozy tells Michèle Alliot-Marie to get her finger out and order the local Gendarmerie to pull every local Brit plated car and line them up outside the scrapyard.......[:-))]