citroen c5,2001 2.2hdi.

[chirpy]

WELL reading some recent posts here there appears to be experts with knowledge I could have done with last week.

After 4 trips to garage complaining of brake fluid loss and unable to trace it myself-and being 72without a lot of know-how on these electronic monsters-I supposed the only fault could be slave master cylinder.

i even bought Haynes manual bit it said they believed there was no maintenance kit to their knowledge.

yesterday citroen garage put innew master at cost of 400+euro!!!!!!!!! and I wondered before I pay bill if thismodel has maintenance possibilities .iwill return next week and get an englih mechanic to translate from the french mechanic what he found.

p.s. for mechanic read my translation after 4 visits in a week as ------"COWBOYS"[:@]

[gosub]

I don't know about the C5, but unexplained brake fluid loss with no obvious leaks in the rear wheel cylinders or brake callipers, was normally down to a small leak in the brake master cylinder,which was then sucked into the brake servo. Easily seen once the B.M.C. was removed. Whether this could happen on the modern type ABS brake system I don't know.

Edit:

Your mention of brake fluid put me on the wrong track for a moment, the C5 uses the same fluid for the brakes and suspension, so I guess the leak could have been in the suspension system. Hope not.

[chirpy]

NO,  - their is a large separate tank for suspension fluid, brakess have twin pipe systems in event of one system giving problem you still havee some braking capacity.

this problem happened after mot test in France and I wonder if the heavy footed tester put a lot of pressure on the pedal aas a few days later level had dropped from full tdown to the danger level.I retooped it up but it kept slowly going down. hence visit to garage to see the cowboys.

[just john]

Monitor fluid loss obviously, and if it remains complete then the MC has fixed the problem, if not, then get it checked somewhere else.

[Jay]

A Bendix master cylinder on oscaro.com is about 200€ and garages like to add on their bit. That, together with labour will work out to the 400€ mark at a main dealer. The C5 is an expensive car to maintain and a 2001 model is getting on a bit so you have to expect the odd problem. Personally I would look for a smaller garage to service the car if I couldnt do it myself.

It is getting more and more expensive to use main dealers. My wife has a C1 and has to have it serviced at a main dealer for the guarantee. An oil change cost us 115€ and they didn't even change the filter!

[AnOther]

[quote user="Ab"]This problem happened after mot test in France and I wonder if the heavy footed tester put a lot of pressure on the pedal as a few days later level had dropped from full tdown to the danger level.I retooped it up but it kept slowly going down. hence visit to garage to see the cowboys.[/quote]If this is indeed a result of the heavy application during the CT then they have possibly done you a favour by revealing a fault with the brakes.

One unfortunate side effect of exercising the brake master cylinder more than normal can be that the piston and it's seal can be pushed further into the cylinder where condensation induced corrosion can exist. This can permanently damage the seal or seals which can be observed by the pedal slowly sinking when you maintain heavy pressure on it.

For this reason I never adhere to the manufacturers recommendation of changing the brake fluid every couple of years or so.

[krusty]

[quote user="AnOther"]

For this reason I never adhere to the manufacturers recommendation of changing the brake fluid every couple of years or so.

[/quote]

But don't they say brake fluid is hygroscopic and that is the reason it has to be changed ? ......I must admit I have a car in which the fluid has not been changed for a number of years.

[BJSLIV]

Citroen recommend that the brake fluid on a c5 should be changed every two years.

[thunderhorse]

[quote user="Ab"]... yesterday citroen garage put innew master at cost of 400+euro!!!!!!!!![/quote]

Why are you surprised at the cost? You did ask for an estimate/devi first?

I must say that our little local Citroen garage bends over backwards to help, and charges far less than I ever imagined.

[AnOther]

Glycol based fluids as are commonly used in non specialised systems are indeed hygroscopic however the degree of absorption and net effect are extremely variable. The majority of absorption will take place through exposure of the fluid in the reservoir to atmosphere, i.e. when the cap is taken off, which in most cases is very infrequent as see through plastic cylinders and level sensors have largely removed the need to ever take the cap off at all.

The result of absorption is not to reduce the compressibility of the fluid (and hence the pedal effort reqiured to achive braking) but more to reduce the boiling point leading to earlier brake fading.

In practice this means that, unless habitually driving down mountain hairpins, under normal driving conditions such fading effects are unlikely to be of any real concern to the average driver and consequently it's fair to say that the need for routine fluid changes is grossly overstated.

Your garage is likely to tell you differently of course but not necessarily out of concern for your safety and welfare [Www]

[chirpy]

I did not ask for a devis as I knew the car had to be fixed  from the safety angle and I had no other way of travel,having only one car.Since local non citroen garage was busy I naturally went to next closest garage which is where I originally bought it new.

JUST INTERESTED TO KNOW IF ANYONE KNEW IF THE CITROEN BOSCH MASTER CYLINDER IS SUITABLE FOR MAINTENANCE OR WHETHER ONLY A NEW ONE MUST BE FITTED.

[Chancer]

Well FWIW I doubt that you could buy the seals as most manufacturers stopped selling them, allegedly on the grounds of safety, many years ago.

Even if they could be sourced I doubt that any garage would take the risk of fitting them when they could keep their hands cleaner and make more money fitting a new one.

And I am speaking from a UK garage viewpoint, you would have practically no chance at a French garage unless it is small, local and you are real friends as opposed to friendly with the owner.

I hope that this answers your question, I would say that you are actually very lucky indeed to have only been relieved of €400 as asking a French main dealer to repair a car without getting a devi is like giving them a blank cheque.

As an aside as has been already said whilst your syptoms sound like master cylinder failure usually the lost fluid would be seen under the bonnet, on the drivers carpet, on the floor or as suggested within the brake servo, keep your eye on things for a while.

P.S. Why are you calling them cowboys?

[Frederick]

Citroen C5's and French main dealers should be kept apart ... Mine ..I snapped off the door handle inside ... They could not get a replacement one in less than a week . They even asked me how I got out of the car ! I had to explain " I lower the window reach out and open it from outside " That never dawned on them .

[chirpy]

I called them cowboys as they are not trained mechanics if they take 4 visits in a week to finally accept that fluid is being lost.

Also the day before this happened I watched 3 of them trying to break into the rear door, high stop light, on the estate as this had been seen in the morning of same day by mot tester as not functioning.

WHEN I SUGGESTED THEY RANG ANOTHER CITROEN GARAGE AS IT WAS OBVIOUS THEY HAD NEVER SEEN THIS PART BEFORE THEY CONTINUED.

I STOPPED THEM AND SAID I WOULD GO TO THE MAIN DEALER 50KM AWAY.

However I bought a Haynes manual and found that you had to open the glass rear windscreen -which is opened separately from the maintailgate in case you wish to pop something in the backand yo are parked where opening of main door is not possible.

I took them a photocopy of the page showing 4 torq bolts which had to be removed.!!!!!!!!!!!!

they did this when the brakes were eventually sorted.

Maybe  it is an injustice to real cowboys -but some people do you use this term, instead of saying untrained grease monkeys or whatever you would consider the correct term.

I know in myworking life that if I had performed as badly as they did then I would have been expected to be sacked on the spot,especially when dealing with safety of drivers and pedestrians in the event of complete brake failure. 

p.s. what do you mean by FWIW?

[thunderhorse]

IIRC it's an acronym - for what it's worth.

[Chancer]

[quote user="thunderhorse"]IIRC it's an acronym - for what it's worth.
[/quote]

FWIW,  it isnt!

Its an acronym for "if I recall correctly".

That is, ............... IIRC [;-)]

[Chancer]

Ab I have to take issue with you calling them untrained grease monkeys as that is just not true.

They will as a minimum after passing their BAC, followed a 2 year full formation at a lycée professional (I am a benevole at one) to gain their B.T.S. (Brevet technician superieur) this may also have taken place at a CFA (centre formation d'apprenticesage) if they did an apprenticeship at the garage.

Without these qualifications they would not be able to work in any garage, as a mechanic is one of the many controlled metiers in France.

[chirpy]

Well perhaps they were trained but they have not remembered much-especially after overfilling the maximum fluid level so it reached the neck of the reservoir.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have taken out so faar 18 xhalf teaspons  and still have not reached below the neck.

Iwill have to buy a syringe to remove more to get down to the maximum specified level.

ARE GARAGES EVER CHECKED UP BY ANY KIND OF INDEPENDENT INSPECTERS??

My memory might be failing but I do remember to look at the handbooks aND CHECK BRAKE,OIL,WATER LEVELS ETC.

 

[Chancer]

Please dont shout.

Have you ever considered that the garage owners/managers have a responsibility?  

If you are not happy take it up with the garage owner but as it seems that you were not charged for the 4 visits and €400 IMO not being outside of the ordinary (I hesitate to  use the word unreasonable) for a change of master cylinder at a Citroen concessionaire what would you have him to do to make you happy apart from sacking the untrained grease monkeys?

[Jonzjob]

This lot might be able to answer some of you questions?

http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citroen/index.php?s=f2861970fecd3d00fce410783c0f1f14&showforum=4