Occasional Work

[Coco]

I remember a long time ago on this forum someone asked if he needed to be registered if he did just one small gardening job during the summer months to top up his pension.  It was suggested that it is possible to do a certain amount of work - less than so many hours per month or year without needing to register and pay cotisations, just tax on income.

I was speaking to a lady today who said that her mason who does odd jobs for her (he's French by the way) says that because he just does occasional odd-jobs and it's by no means anywhere near a full or even part-time job, he is able to charge for example 12 euros per hour to someone, he then takes his 12 euros along to URSSAF (presumably) and they take 2 and he keeps 10 (aribitary figures, I don't know the exact %ages), to be declared on his tax dec.

Anyone know any more about this?  It would be so helpful as during the winter months when the B&B is quiet (and when we've finally finished the barn conversion) my husband could take on some jobs like this.  We are constantly being asked by people with holiday homes if he would like to paint their kitchen, varnish their shutters, put up a garden fence etc.  He would absolutely love to do it but has always been too worried about being "caught" by the gendarmes to go ahead.  And it wouldn't be worth registering to do this work because he wouldn't have time in the summer and I should think it is something that would only make us an extra thousand or two euros a year and therefore wouldn't even pay the cotisations.

 

[suein56]

[quote user="St Amour"]

 He would absolutely love to do it but has always been too worried about being "caught" by the gendarmes ... and it wouldn't be worth registering to do this work because he wouldn't have time in the summer and I should think it is something that would only make us an extra thousand or two euros a year and therefore wouldn't even pay the cotisations.

[/quote]

Isn't there also something where you can just register to work seasonally as well? The charges being pro rata. I am sure I read that somewhere too.

Sue

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

Sounds like you need to look at Cheque Emploi scheme. It's designed to cover this situation. The employer uses a special cheque book and the deductions are made when the cheque is cashed (horribly simplified version, but ...).

Only possible complication would be whether a non-resident or someone with no French bank account could be the employer. The only people I know who use it are French.

 

[opas]

I have requested some info on the Cheques d'emploi system from my bank who seem to think that non-residents could issue these cheques  for work on their homes........we will see.

[Coco]

No it's not cheque d'emploi because that still means that the employer is the one that pays the cotisations via the cheque.  The system that was talked about on here several years ago was something totally different and also this lady today was talking about the guy going along himself and threfore the onus being on him to make the declaration by stating what work he had done and then had money deducted pro rata.

[Iain]

I'd be very interested in the answer to this - I too am looking for a way to work part time, but legally. And ideally with the "burden" on me, as opposed to whoever I worked for... ie if someone asks me to paint a wall, I don't want to have to ask him to obtain a cheque d'emploi from wherever first, because they probably won't, they'll just get someone else to do it...

[Coco]

That's my point absolutely Iain, I know that's the "logical" way to go to be legal whilst doing occasional work but there again, by nature of occasional work, no one is going to go to those lengths unless they are absolutely desparate.  They'll either pay more than they wanted if they want to stay legal, or bring someone over from England, as is currently happening on the job that could have given my husband quite a bit of work over the winter months (had the timing been right and he was able to do it anyway [:)])

[Suze01]

[quote user="opas"]I have requested some info on the Cheques d'emploi system from my bank who seem to think that non-residents could issue these cheques  for work on their homes........we will see.[/quote]

For information, non-residents can do the Cheque d'emploi system.  I am paid that way by two sets of holiday home owners.

[KathyC]

But isn't part of the point of the cheque d'emploi system the fact that the employer can claim back part of the payment? Surely it's a very expensive way of paying someone otherwise? Do non residents just forego this for the sake of paing someone legitimately or do they get the money back in some other way?

[cooperlola]

Erm, I'm confused.  If (using the arbitrary figures again) you pay somebody 10 euros an hour, before tax, then whether the employer or the employee pays the tax is not of much importance provided the figure is agreed in advance (ie I give you 10 euros and you pay 2 euors tax or I give you 8 euros and I pay 2 euros tax.)  It's a question of agreeing an hourly rate that pays the tax and gives the employee the amount they want for the job and getting it done for a sum that's agreeable to the employer.  Have I missed something (answer: yes, probably!)

[Coco]

In theory no, you haven't missed anything.  But the impression I have always had is that cheque d'emploi means the employer pays normal employer rates, which I understand to be about 40% of the employee's agreed salary, whereas this scheme I was told about meant that the mason was paying normal employee rates of about 20%.  Of course I could have got it all wrong but my feeling was that people will be reluctant to pay 40% on top of what you would want to earn, ie 14 euros an hour in order for you to get 10, whereas the other way you would only have to charge 12 euros to net your 10.  I don't know, I'm confusing myself now!!! 

Suze, perhaps you know how much more the employer pays than the sum that you actually get???

[Russethouse]

St Amour, isn't your sitation different because you already have a business? In the examples you quote it looks as if the people concerned have no other source of income........just a thought,

[Coco]

No it would be my husband doing this and he has no other business.  But at the moment I'm just interested to know if such a system exists.  We'll work out later whether it's applicable to us.

[KathyC]

[quote user="St Amour"]

.  Of course I could have got it all wrong but my feeling was that people will be reluctant to pay 40% on top of what you would want to earn, ie 14 euros an hour in order for you to get 10, whereas the other way you would only have to charge 12 euros to net your 10.  I don't know, I'm confusing myself now!!! 

[/quote]

But the point I was making is regarding the tax rebate (and my enquiry as to its availability to non residents). Quoting from the cheque d'emploi website,

"Avec le cheque emploi service universel, les demarches declaratives sont simplifiees et l'utilisateur beneficie des avantages fiscaux lies a l'emploi d'une aide a domicile(reduction de l'impot sur le revenu de 50% des depenses engagees dans la limite d'un plafond annuel."

 (Apologies for spelling and lack of accents.)

Surely this means that you pay someone (say) 10E, you have 14E deducted from your account and you claim back 7E through tax. This would make it a very good deal for the employer who is living in France but I wanted to know how(or if) a UK based employer would be able to claim this back.

[Coco]

Wouldn't the 50% back only apply to the extra 4 euros?  Otherwise the government are going to be partially paying the person for doing the work for you!  If you got back 50% of the full amount then surely everyone would want to use cheques d'emploi rather than using people working on the black!

Sorry, still can't know the answer to your non-resident question.

[Will]

[quote user="St Amour"]No it would be my husband doing this and he has no other business.  [/quote]

It doesn't quite work like that unfortunately. For tax etc purposes the household income is all lumped in together, albeit in different pigeonholes. For example we had Judie's salaried employment, my business, and a small B&B operation which all went on the same tax forms. This was instigated by the local tax office and confirmed later when we started using an accountant. As we had other incomes then the B&B was just declared (under the micro-bic option) and not registered separately. I know B&B is often seen as a bit of a special case, and how it would work if the B&B was the main income I have no idea.

[Coco]

It's not tax I'm worried about though Bill, because that does work on the basis of paying in proportion to what you have earnt and I have no problem with that.  It's paying out cotisations whether or not you have the income which concerns us.  Mick just wouldn't have the time to do enough work to cover them if he registered as a separate business, which is why this idea is so appealing.

[opas]

Suze , have sent you a PM.

[KathyC]

[quote user="St Amour"]

Wouldn't the 50% back only apply to the extra 4 euros?  Otherwise the government are going to be partially paying the person for doing the work for you!  If you got back 50% of the full amount then surely everyone would want to use cheques d'emploi rather than using people working on the black!

[/quote]

There was a long thread about this on TF that you might want to look at.

http://www.totalfrance.com/france/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10342&highlight=check+cheque+demploi

Also , on the Dordogne Granny's website, you can see the same information.

http://www.en-toutes-saisons.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=3

I only know what I've read, so you may be right.

[Will]

[quote user="St Amour"]It's not tax I'm worried about though Bill, because that does work on the basis of paying in proportion to what you have earnt and I have no problem with that.  It's paying out cotisations whether or not you have the income which concerns us.  Mick just wouldn't have the time to do enough work to cover them if he registered as a separate business, which is why this idea is so appealing.[/quote]

I did say tax etc - cotisations are based on your income too, at 40-50% of your taxable income according to our accountant so although they are payable separately in advance and tax looks insignificant beside cotisations, they are related. The real problem is that in the first years of operating a business cotisations are payable at a so-called 'average' rate, so if the income is low it will take many years for your actual liability to catch up with what you have paid - and without income how are you going to pay it anyway? It is possible to defer cotisations in the early years which goes some way to solving the problem, but how do you know what you are going to earn?

It's a daft system, if small businesses were encouraged to start up and grow it would help solve many of France's economic difficulties.

The current version of the cheque emploi system can be used by handymen, but to get the full advantage from it both employer and employee need to be fiscally resident in France.

[Bastet]

I too have a vague recollection of a discussion about earning an annual income of under a certain threshold, something like €7k ? for which the cotisations were greatly reduced or simplified.  It was a few years ago and before the revamp of the forum so it wouldn't still be in the archives.

Maybe whatever scheme it was, (and it wasn't cheque emploi) doesn't exist anymore or maybe it was for certain metiers which were seasonal ? 

[Will]

There are indeed some jobs, usually undertaken on a part-time basis, in which you are let off altogether from registering and paying cotisations if your income is less than a certain percentage of the social security threshold. This has been discussed before on the forum, one of the jobs being 'correspondants locaux de presse', something that I managed to get categorised as at the tax office because it saved a lot of hassle in other areas although my earnings were above the non-registering limit. As far as I can tell, the current figure is 15% of the plafond annuel de la Sécurité Sociale. In real terms, that lets you earn about 5000€ per year. I didn't think it was worth confusing the issue with that here, because I understand that building, gardening or handyman type work definitely cannot take advantage of this particular concession.

 

[KathyC]

Sometimes I feel invisible.

I wonder if anyone would like to comment on my previous post; whether what I have posted is factually incorrect or whether I've misunderstood somewhere along the line. Forget about the non resident employer; is this the way the tax rebate on cheque d'emploi works, or not? If it's true, surely this would be a possible way forward for anyone doing a small amount of work to subsidise a pension or seasonal employment?[8-)]

[Cjlaws]

[quote user="KathyC"]

Sometimes I feel invisible.

I wonder if anyone would like to comment on my previous post; whether what I have posted is factually incorrect or whether I've misunderstood somewhere along the line. Forget about the non resident employer; is this the way the tax rebate on cheque d'emploi works, or not? If it's true, surely this would be a possible way forward for anyone doing a small amount of work to subsidise a pension or seasonal employment?[8-)]

[/quote]

You're not invisible!

I met someone the evening who uses cheques d'emploi to pay people who do this sort of work, and yes you are correct - he gets a tax rebate of half the payment, not half the cotisation.

[KathyC]

Thank you.