Better to be English or French?

[Baggycat]

I have an interest in a small kitchen/bedroom manufacturing business in England - I also personally design and install them. We have been thinking, mainly because of the incessant drip of information from friends, of leaving this paradise that we call Britain and setting up in the dump that is known to be Carcassonne.

The horror stories that I have been told, however, of setting up a small business in France is exercising my lateral thinking powers.

Because the situation here in the UK is dire, work has dried up completely for almost everyone I know in our industry, we need to make the move sooner rather than later.

Would it be better to keep the limited company I run in the UK and treat any new work we do as exports and avoid the French system? Or would that not be possible?

[Iceni]

1. Will the factory remain in England ? Is this the Ltd Co you mention ?

2. Or is the Ltd Co a separate entity for you as a designer/installer with no formal relationship to the factory ?

3.If you install in France when you live here you will need some form of trading business here and one assumes that your bum will be parked here when you design ?

4. You are about to enter a minefield. Social security and personal/business tax issues are complex enough when dealing with 1 relatively easy country (England) but France can be a nightmare even for those brought up here. Seek out professional advice from them what knows both systems..

5. Be very wary about relying on advice garnered in the online equivalent of the Saloon Bar of the Dog and Duck.

John

 

[Russethouse]

Because the situation here in the UK is dire, work has dried up completely for almost everyone I know in our industry, we need to make the move sooner rather than later.

Where are you located ? We are researching a project and the architect, double glazing people, kitchen planners, plumbers, bedroom suppliers all say they are busier than ever. The bedroom guy for example canceled his advertising as he has work 3 months ahead on an ongoing basis - apparently it's the old 'don't move - improve scenario' and is a known phenomenon termed 'nesting' by the media.

If you are having problems in the Uk where you presumably know your market etc, think very carefully before moving to another country, with all the complications.

Sorry not to be more encouraging

[cooperlola]

As R/H so wisely says, do take care.  The FT reports today that the economic slow down here in France is getting worse, so you need to do a lot of homework re the market here.  It isn't necessarily any better than the UK, and could well be a more limited market than you are used to.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b5b7b9ee-5961-11dd-90f8-000077b07658.html

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/005d21f4-58c8-11dd-a093-000077b07658.html

As far as the actual business registration is concerned then John is right, imo.  Take professional advice from somebody who understands the French system.  Because, in broad terms, you have little choice as to where your business is registered - it's all about where the work is carried out, not where you want to register.  This is probably the reason why so many French (200,000+ in London alone) go to the UK to set up businesses.

[JMB]

I think we are entering a period of great economic uncertainty and the conservative scenario is very bad indeed (the more optimistic scenarios aren't that great either).   This may not be a time for embarking on a new business venture in a land where the geography is different to what you know. 

If you just look at the price of oil, some pundits are saying it'll hit $200 a barrel this year.  Even with the price as it is now, it is eating into peoples' disposable income in a big way.  If it goes to $200 or higher, then it will have a major impact on all our lives.  Everything will become more expensive and people will have less and less money to spend on things other than the essentials.  Of course you will face the same problem in the UK, at least there you probably have a support network in place and you know lie of the land.

[Val_2]

Don't forget also that the sort of business you envisage starting here is already up and running by french skilled craftsmen so you would have to compete anyway and never ever rely on british clients for your business. Social charges in France are horrendous and the system is designed so that the more profit you make one year,your charges practically double the following two years,plus you have to pay regardless of whether you have the work or not. There are several bespoke craftsmen in this neck of the woods and you hardly ever see any clients in their salle d'expo especially the kitchen outfitters as they are on the main road. I think it will get tough here too and there are certainly less Permis de Construire papers being submitted against two years ago which means bulding work is slowing down.

[Anton Redman]

I would have a long hard look round your proposed location. See if similar business are prospering see how many have closed and what the competition looks like. Relative to the UK the fees and taxes to move house are huge and in most of France house prices are much lower than the UK. Putting a £25,000 kitchen in a £600,000 house may not hurt when prices are rising by 10% a year. Putting a €30,000 kitchen in a €150,000 house is a much heavier investment. Have a look through 'Art & Decoration' and 'Maison & Travaux' magazines - I have not read them recently but from memory there do not seem to be much advertising from the French equivalent of 'Mark Wilkinson' - 'John Lewis' ( not JLP) or 'Smallbone of Devices' etc.

Could be it is like Fridges to the Eskimos a huge untaped market.

[Baggycat]

Thanks for all your replies. My situation is possibly a little less than normal, but I did simplify it by only referring to kitchens.

There are several reasons for wanting to move, not least that in Peterborough we are living in what has become a septic tank. The city is the number 1 dumping ground for immigrants from eastern europe and beyond. We have had over 30,000 of them flood the city, in addition to the already large Asian population. We would rather be foreigners in a pleasant place than feel like foreigners in Peterborough.

Work here has come to a very dramatic halt. Literally the taps turned off overnight.

Up until three months ago I was working six or seven days a week to keep up. We had an extended holiday in May - I was almost burned out and desperately needed it! - and since then I have only done two bathrooms in two months.

My wife is a textile designer and lecturer and would very much like to run courses in a holiday location like the S of F. My father-in-law would also come with us.

The overall proposal is not necessarily that I 'export' the furniture side, but it is a good option if the work is there. If it isn't then I can do other things - I'm also a qualified Apple Service Engineer. I will have to become fluent in French anyway, so that will be a period of time that I hoped to be spending viably, maybe working within the ex-pat community initially.

I also want to look at renovations and possibly buy a property with gites attached.

The furniture business is a limited company, the manufacturing side is run by a good friend of mine so there is a strong link, but not a formal one. However, if it is beneficial, then all things are possible.

Ideally, I would like to mess about with gites, do some building, write my novels and look after a few macs while my wife does all the work!

In the meantime, we fly to Carcassonne on Monday and will have a good butchers and see what we all think, the old man included... I say old, although he's 84, he will probably outlive us all he's that damned fit!

[Baggycat]

The main reason why oil prices are so high is because of the actions of traders, and especially major merchant banks who have moved into commodities to try and recoup their losses elsewhere.

There is now 8 times as much oil traded than is actually produced, and as a result the price is hiked up, also fed by the donkeys in the media who lurve printing scary stories because it sells their rags.

It is noticeable in the past that there were virtually riots when petrol went up by 5p a litre, but since the media so willingly primed the pumps for the speculators by 'warning the public that prices may hit £1/litre' etc etc the consumer was instantly disempowered, giving the speculators free reign to push the prices as far as they dare.

Personally, I think that the wheels are going to fall off that wagon and they will recede, not wend their way to to £2/litre or $200/barrel. Don't believe everything you read in the papers.

[powerdesal]

The oil price has already dropped by 20+ USD from the historical high. No doubt driven by price led economies around the world. I tend to agree with baggycat. I believe we will see a further reduction, maybe not to the lows of yesteryear but certainly to a more acceptable and sustainable level.

Whether petrol / diesel prices at the pumps will reflect that drop is another matter.

[Baggycat]

When you see reports coming out of places like Vietnam showing inflation running at 27% it becomes crystal clear that 3rd world countries spiking demand is pure garbage. Think about it logically... if WE can't afford to pay ridiculous prices for oil and gas, then how on earth do they expect Vietnam, China and India to effectively outbid us for the supposedly short-supplied commodities? It's blindingly obvious, they can't!

The price of oil, based on true supply and demand, should be under $100/barrel and petrol should be less than £1/litre - diesel in the UK has no business whatsoever being 16p a litre more than unleaded, its just another example of naked profiteering.

[Pads]

Hello BaggyCat

Good luck with your hunt around Carcasonne .... loverly place [:)]

I too am trying to work out if it would be better or worse for us to move to france its very differecult to understand as you get a different answer every time you ask . I think we should really talk to a qualified person to get a true account as every one cercumstances are different .

I have come across this which might help you a bit

 

	Salaries and unemployment benefits (on 97 per cent of gross)	Retirement or Disability Pensions (on 95 per cent of gross)	Investments, annuities, rental income and capital gains
CSG (Contribution sociale généralisée)	7.5 per cent	6.6 per cent	8.2 per cent
CRDS (Contribution au remboursement de la dette sociale)	0.5 per cent	0.5 per cent	0.5 per cent
PS (Prélèvement Sociale)	0 per cent	0 per cent	2.3 per cent
Total	8 per cent	7.1 per cent	11 per cent

What im not sure about is : Are there any further taxes to pay on your income or not ?

Does any one know ?

Any one have a dummies version of paying your taxes in france ?

 

[Baggycat]

Thanks for that info, it doesn't appear to include income tax, neither does it make any mention of tax free personal allowances, which I presume there must be some, or how would anyone on a low income be able to survive?

One other aspect that has been mentioned to my wife today by one of her friends who owns a house just north of Nice and that is inheritance laws.

From what she has said is that dear old Napoleon saddled France wit what perhaps seemed like a great idea at the time, but has worked out to be an absolute nightmare: and that is that instead of estate passing to surviving spouse as in UK law, 50% of the estate immediately goes to surviving children with the spouse only having the right to abode as long as the children permit it!

This could be enough to stop me dead in my tracks... unless this is wrong or there is a way around it?

Anyone know?

[Russethouse]

At the top of the page on the right is a 'Search' box - type in Inheriance, pour a glass of something good and start reading ....there are lots of threads about it and doubtless someone will have had a similar situation to you

Bon Chance........[:)]

[Baggycat]

Yes, did that no sooner than I asked the question.

This is a good link with loads of info... no harm in posting it again:

http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/inheritance/overview/

[Pads]

Tranches de revenus et taux applicables aux revenus 2007 (IR 2008) Income ceilings and rates applicable to year 2007 income (2008 tax)
Jusqu’à (up to) 5 687 €	0
De (from) 5 687 € à (to) 11 344 €	5,5 %
De (from) 11 344 € à (to) 25 195 €	14 %
De (from) 25 195 € à (to) 67 546 €	30 %
Plus de (over) 67 546 €	40 %

Tax brackets

[Pads]

What area of Carcassonne are you looking at ?

[JMB]

Also check out:

htttp://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/social-security/employers-employees/

http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/social-security/self-employed/

and don't forget you need to pay income tax on top of all this.

[Baggycat]

I'll be able to tell you better after next week!

We fly out on Monday, back on Thursday.

One property we are going to look at is in Berriac, but we have friends in Limoux. Quillan has also been suggested but we would prefer to be closer to the Cité.

[Pads]

Try Villeneurve Minervois ,( Not sure i have spelt that right but cant think this time of night)  just a little north of carcassonne . Its a loverly village , nice bar , great resturant , a few shops and a 15min drive to centre of carcassonne .

We stop here for a beer some times on our way up to our place . If I could choose again or if we decide to move I would pick this village ...

[Baggycat]

Thanks for the tip, we'll have a ride out and grab some lunch for two or three hours :-)

[Danny]

[quote user="Baggycat"] There are several reasons for wanting to move, not least that in Peterborough we are living in what has become a septic tank. The city is the number 1 dumping ground for immigrants from eastern europe and beyond. We have had over 30,000 of them flood the city, in addition to the already large Asian population. We would rather be foreigners in a pleasant place than feel like foreigners in Peterborough. [/quote]

Don't forget that Carcassonne and environs is choc full of immigrants and the rest are those miserable bleeding French!

Danny

[Baggycat]

Yes, I know, but from what I understand they are a better class of immigrants than those who go to Spain!

[Baggycat]

Quick update on oil prices... down to $123/barrel... so why haven't prices fallen as quickly as they were previously rising?

Stupid question, it's not about cost, it's about profit!

[Clair]

Diesel prices have fallen here.

Down to €1.35 from a high of €1.49.