Retirement in France and healthcare

[oldgit72]

Whilst watching the demonstrations in France yesterday against raising the retirement age a thought regarding healthcare crossed my mind. IIRC, once you get a French social security number (for example through starting a business) then you no longer qualify for an E121 from the UK but instead qualify for post retirement healthcover in the same`way as any other French citizen. If this is true, then does this mean that as far as healthcare is concerned,once you have a French ss number the French government regard you as retired at 60(62)? Any views please.

[Sunday Driver]

Social security numbers are issued to everyone who is in the social security system, from the school leaver starting his/her first job up to the retired Brit who presents his E121 to his CPAM, so having one is not an indication that you have reached retirement age.

 

[AnOther]

As I understand it in your specific sceanrio, where you have health care by virtue of

working or being in business, then as far as France is concerned you should be

able to retire at 60(62), collect any pension you may have built up,

and remain in the health system. When you reach 65(66) you will still be

entitled to your UK state pension but of course will not get, or need,

an E121(S1).

I believe in this case you have to be claiming your French pension first before you can claim the UK one but I don't know what actual effect the one might have on the other, locically it should be none as both are the result of contributing x years into the relative systems. Maybe someone who had 1st hand experience could comment though ?

[nomoss]

Here is a description of how the calculation is made when you have pensions from two or more EEA countries.

http://www.easyexpat.com/en/faq/work/q61.htm

It's a bit unclear, and dated Jan 2008, but the calculation is the same as when I claimed some time back. I don't believe it has changed in the last 2 years.

[AnOther]

My brain hurts from just reading that let alone doing any hypothetical calculations [:'(]

Does it mean though that, even if you had done the 30 years necessary for the basic UK state pension, the fact that you'd also worked for say 15 years in another country, you would not get the full UK state pension plus whatever you had built up elsewhere but that one would be adjusted to take into account the other ?

[nomoss]

In that case one should get the full amount for which one qualified from each country.

If your brain hadn't hurt so much you might have noticed the second paragraph [:)]

Each institution where you contributed will calculate the amount to be paid according to:
- its legislation (national pension)
- by adding together all working periods in all the state members, and calculating proportionally with the time spent in the state (Proportional or communitarian pension)

Of course each institution will retain the most advantageous amount after comparing the two computations.

 

The last sentence could better read "the most advantageous amount for the claimant " – I did say it was a bit unclear.

 

So, in the case you ask about, assuming the second country is in the EEA :-

 

By the first computation you would get pension for 30 years from UK and for 15 years from the other country.

If 15 years were not enough to qualify in the other country, the period worked in UK would be taken into account there for the purpose of qualifying.

 

By the second computation you would get 30/45 of the full pension in UK, so the obviously higher amount from the first computation would be awarded there.

From the other country you would get 15/45 of full pension, which could be more or less than the first calculation, depending on the regulations for that country.

If it were less, then the normal amount for 15 years, as per computation 1 would be awarded.

 

Hope that doesn’t add to your brain problems [:D]

[NormanH]

I have posted on this at least 3 times, but been ignored.

I know what I get and hos it all works.

Why not just use search instead of asking us to re-explain, and stop ignoring my posts just because my opinions are unpopular

[parsnips]

Hi,

     An aspect of this subject which I have seen discussed but which is still not clear (to me ) is that some people who have claimed a (usually minimal) pension from France plus ,later,a UK state pension paid via the french caisse, say that they have had as a result to pay CSG etc. on their UK pensions and have not been given an E121.  Others have claimed otherwise. Does anyone have up-to-date personal experience of either situation?

[5-element]

[quote user="parsnips"]
Hi,
     An aspect of this subject which I have seen discussed but which is still not clear (to me ) is that some people who have claimed a (usually minimal) pension from France plus ,later,a UK state pension paid via the french caisse, say that they have had as a result to pay CSG etc. on their UK pensions and have not been given an E121.  Others have claimed otherwise. Does anyone have up-to-date personal experience of either situation?
[/quote]

My own experience was to claim first, my UK state pension - for which I got an E121. Very recently,  I became entitled to a minuscule French pension (having worked for a couple of years in France BEFORE I went to England where I spent the rest of my working life). As soon as I started receiving my mini French pension, I lost all entitlement to E121 and was automatically (well, with a few forms to fill) switched on to the French system like any other French person. I expect this will mean that I have to pay CSG on my UK pension. (so the amount I now receive from the French state will probably get recycled as CSG in the French system!) 

 

I don't know if the same happens when you work first in the UK, and then in France - it might be different then?

[chessfou2]

"Why not just use search" [NormanH]

The trouble is that the search function is so terrible (English not French meaning).

Just try doing a search for "retirement AND healthcare" author "NormanH" and see what you get - I got absolutely nothing, not even this post of yours that I am replying to.

[oldgit72]

Thanks for the mostly constructive replies. I must admit that I was more interested in the healthcare side of things rather than the pension implications. In other words does being 60(62) and in France after running a business and paying cotisations trump being 65(66) and in receipt of an e121 as far as entitlement to healthcare as a retired person?

[cooperlola]

It depends.  If you are healthy and can afford between 2 and 4 years of private healthcare, then there's a strong chance this is better than starting a business as you'll eventually get both an E121 and a UK pension.  If you work, you will get into the French system and stay there with all that that implies.  Yes, you can retire at 62 but you'll continue to pay into the system and to be taxed with all the implications which Norman and 5-E are aware of and which, as Norman says, have been discussed on here before.  But if you can't get private healthcare due to a pre-existing condition then you don't really have a choice - you must work or go back to the UK until you reach British state retirement age (or at least that is what the latest version of the regs appears to imply.) 

Ill - you can't retire early to France.  Healthy and wealthy - no probs!

Seriously oldgit, it's impossible to answer your question - you need to do the sums for yourself based upon your circumstances as it's impossible to give a one size fits all response.

[oldgit72]

Thanks for the reply and your one size fits all comment is understood. If there is a link to the postings you refer to please could you post it as I cannot find it through the search facility.

[cooperlola]

I should also add that it depends how long you live!  Having the UK bear your healthcare costs for what could be 25 or more years could work out very advantageous as opposed to paying only for Private for 3or 4 years (the length of time is dependent upon how long any E106 (or what used to be the E106) entitlement lasts.  If you give up work in the UK in midsummer then you'd get the full 30 months then that only leaves another 30 months to pay for.  If you are in the French system as part of a work scheme then you have to pay the full social charges on your pension (and possible cotis also if you earn enough, I think)  for as long as you live - that could be quite a lot of money.  But if you were to drop dead at 64 you'd be a bit peeved I guess!

I'll try to find Norman's posts on this subject for you.  I agree the search facility is a bit lacking in this regard!  The workers' bit of this is not my field knowledge I'm afraid.

[NormanH]

[quote user="5-element"]

[quote user="parsnips"]

Hi,

     An aspect of this subject which I have seen discussed but which is still not clear (to me ) is that some people who have claimed a (usually minimal) pension from France plus ,later,a UK state pension paid via the french caisse, say that they have had as a result to pay CSG etc. on their UK pensions and have not been given an E121.  Others have claimed otherwise. Does anyone have up-to-date personal experience of either situation?

[/quote]

My own experience was to claim first, my UK state pension - for which I got an E121. Very recently,  I became entitled to a minuscule French pension (having worked for a couple of years in France BEFORE I went to England where I spent the rest of my working life). As soon as I started receiving my mini French pension, I lost all entitlement to E121 and was automatically (well, with a few forms to fill) switched on to the French system like any other French person. I expect this will mean that I have to pay CSG on my UK pension. (so the amount I now receive from the French state will probably get recycled as CSG in the French system!) 

 

I don't know if the same happens when you work first in the UK, and then in France - it might be different then?

[/quote]

Exactly as J have already explained

I have a tiny French pension gained by working, which ensure continuing health cover under the French system, but which precludes me from an E121,or the new equivalent.

On another thread I even remarked that a lot of people with businesses or working in France didn't realise that they were giving up the right to an E 121  and would find themselves in the position of having to pay CSG etr on all their pensions..

But as always my posts (supposed to help)  were  ignored.

[oldgit72]

Thanks both. That helps. We are in the annoying position in having signed our comprmis in September 2007 but not living permanently in France until after November 2007. We could have pulled out and gone back, maybe we should have planned things better but it just seems that the barstewards are trying to grind us down which makes us all the more determined to find the best way to live our dream and not let the worry of healthcover spoil things. I certainly didn't realise the implications re the E121/paying contributions on pensions without e121. We both have some pre existing conditions but nothing serious as in cancer/diabetes so the implications of going private after e106 expiry in December should not be too problematic/expensive as long as we can get cover for non pre existing. I believe the French also can choose to allow early retirees into the system if they find themselves unfortunate enough to suffer something serious (diabetes?) after taking out private insurance that the insurance will not cover. I have a quote from Axa/ppp for both of us @ 3800ukp which seems reasonable. It has a 2 year exclusiion for pre existing and some words around illnesses connected with high blood pressure/diabetes but I suppose this is normal. Am I correct in thinking that after 5 years we can gain access to the french state system in the same way as those who lived here before November 2007? If so, the private route would seem to be a sensible option (especially as I plan to live long enough to see England win the World cup or 101 which ever comes later).

[NormanH]

I am sorry.

My replies on this thread have been irritable without giving enough detail to help you

.I will try to be more positive tomorrow

[oldgit72]

No problems Norman and thanks again for the info on e121. I'm sure as you say that many people do not realise the long term cost of getting healthcover via starting a business in France (AE for example) vs the short term gain. Maybe that is why the French are allowing small income AE enterprises to obtain healthcare knowing that they can then clobber you for the rest of your life for contributions that may well exceed what they would get from hmrc via e121. Just a thought.

[5-element]

[quote user="NormanH"]


But as always my posts (supposed to help)  were  ignored.
[/quote]

 

Norman, I don't know if your post above was directed at me - but I remembered very well you warning me in real life about the fact that entitlement to healthcare under the French system gives rise to CSG demands on all pensions. I certainly did not ignore your advice.

In my case both my pensions amount to so little that I think I will still be in pocket in spite of the CSG charges. I wasn't really in a position to refuse the tiny French pension, so did not have any real choice in the matter!

[oldgit72]

Thinking about this a bit more (funny what goes on in your subconsciousness) a couple of other variables could come into play here.

1. France is looking at incorporating csg charges into income tax. If this happens, you will pay regardless of whether you hold an e121 or not although double taxation should reduce the cost for some.

2. Will the UK continue to fund healthcare for retired people in other EU countries through e121/S1 provision? In the current climate, clobbering overseas pensioners would seem an easy target if they could get away with passing the costs on to the pensioner/host country.

[Will]

Both interesting points.

France reportedly earns far more from CSG and CRDS than it does from income tax, so I doubt if even low-income current non-taxpayers would get off that lightly.

I think under EU law, UK pensioners have to be treated basically the same as they would in their home state (though there are obviously some get-outs). Otherwise the Britsih government would most likely have applied the same freeze to pensioners in the EU as they have to those in Australia, New Zealand, Singapore etc. And it's thanks to EU law that France was unable to impose CSG etc on most UK pensions.

 

[cooperlola]

The implications are many and varied and you have obviously fallen into limbo-land as regards healthcare.  Your problem is that of many potential early-retirees now.  You say you have minor health problems.  In theory you must get full PHI if you don't work and it must conform to the regs outlined

HERE  brief summary in Google English HERE

Now, there's a possibility (and that is all it is at this stage as five years have not yet passed since the latest variation on the healthcare law for non-French Europeans was passed so we don't know for sure as nobody has yet tested this) that if your cover from a private insurer excludes some conditions - because of a pre-existing problem and anything an insurer may deem to be related to it - that you may not comply with the law even if you do take out private insurance.  Thus the working route may be the only one available to you or anybody like you as you are, in theory at least, breaking the law if your cover doesn't comply.  You need also to ask yourselves if anything you suffer from already might flare up into a major problem which your insurance would not cover.  Thus I'd just warn you that even if you can afford PHI and it is more economically viable in the long term - it may be a) illegal and b) insufficient to anybody with a pre-exisiting condition.

As I said before, IMO the problem with the new regs is not what they might cost you economically but simply that - in theory at least, perhaps not in practice, who knows - they exclude the sick (even if their problems is minor) from any possibility of early retirement to France.

However, the European Commission also finds this blatant discrimination against the sick to be problematic and the French interpretation of EU free movement regs is currently under investigation by them:

http://www.french-property.com/news/french_health/expats_cmu_access/

thus help may be at hand but I wouldn't hold my breath as they do work slowly!

EDIT : You are right in that if you develop a condition which was not pre-existing when you moved then you can apply for CMU under the "accident de vie" provisions.  However, if you already hada problem which could have made you a potential burden on the French social security system (the clause of the free movement regs which this government used to apply the latest version of the rules on healthcare for early retired non-French Europeans) then I doubt if you'd have much luck with an accident de vie provisions (but that's just speculation - I have no evidence anecdotal or otherwise, just a feeling!  I've posted on several fora to try to find somebody who has tested the provisions but I've yet to find anybody.)

[oldgit72]

Thanks coops. I'm pretty sure that eventually the EU will sort things out but as you say they are not famed for their swift mevement so I guess by the time they do it will no longer be an issue for me (58 at the moment). I would also suspect that anyyone taking out private healthcare would not be complying with the regs as everyone has some pre-existing condition of some kind and it is almost impossible to find ph that covers all potentila future conditions. As you say, the test will come around November 2012 when the first exculdees test the 5 year rule. I was also thinking of speaking to the local Mairie to see if we copuld appeal on the basis that it would have cost us a lot of money to pull out of our purchase in Sept 2007 once we found out that healthcover would not be available in November 2007. Might be worth a shot, what do you think?

[cooperlola]

When we were campaigning, we brought up this point with the health minister (people committed to purchases which they couldn't back out of but which were now useless) but she was unsympathetic - as you would imagine.  The Embassy felt we were doing you know what into the wind also.  The problem is that any law in any country can change at any time and thus it's more difficult to argue than it was for people who were already actually here who would have had to pack up an leave as a result of the change.  But anything is worth a go.  The EU Commission might have a view.