CLAMP DOWN ON COWBOYS (and property owners)

[Ripped Off]

At last !!! After having been a victim of Cowboy Builders and although I accept full responsibility for having took the risk taking on « So called Builders » from back in England (big mistake), revenge seems imminent…

 

As I heard recently from a very reliable source, that the increasing number of  British Builders Vans and Wagons passing through the ports and D.I.Y. establishments in France “hasn’t gone unoticed by neither French builders and in turn the relevant authorities who are now beginning to act.

 

Apparently, there are spot checks taking place at various well known Builders/D.I.Y. suppliers and for those who think they can escape behind the language barrier FORGET IT, the source of my information comes from one of the registered interpreters being provided to ensure prosecution and confiscation of vehicles is carried out efficiently.

 

Fortunately, I can rub my hands with glee as these people causing such misery to home owners like myself, are finally being seriously penalised… Unfortunately, for the home owners using these Cowboys, THEY ALSO, stand to be prosecuted for complicity.

 

In short the mistakes I made were, not insisting on a written Estimate and paying cash for part of the work – result – unfinished shabby workmanship and not a leg to stand on, as they escape all French control - that's to say - no come back and au revoir...

[Nick Trollope]

100% with you, but what can you really do about it? Believe me, I've tried.

I guess that you are a regular poster here and want to hide your identity - fine. But, how about the rest of your story - always good for persuading those customer who want to pay cash because they think it saves them money.

 

[Gastines]

Nick. Adding on to your comment and in relation to my other posting. Perhaps  the Notaire or even the Immo dealing with a sale could hand the buyer a leaflet from the powers that be advising that not only are you liable to get a duff job from an unregistered trades person but if it's a second/holiday home,you will get well stuffed on CGT when you sell!! My pal [ as in the other posting ] was advised by a big property owner in UK+Europe, that if you can knock the price down 50% you will be ahead. Can you see any COWBOY doing a job to the same standard and using the same quality materials???

I used to have the same problem when I was VAT registered in UK. Spend time doing designs and quotes and find the little man down the road was doing it but not on every other Thursday when he has to sign on. Why are they always little?

 Now the only battle I have to deal with is weeds and moles.

Regards.

[Will]

Mrs Will's agency always points out the legal and 'plus values' (CGT) implications of using black workers. But people still do, probably because they cannot wait for the legitimate workers or they are reluctant to deal in French (despite there being plenty of legitimate English-speaking tradesmen).

Surely as long as people know the risks, they are free to make up their own minds whether they chance it or not? Not all of the 'mates' helping out with jobs are shoddy workers, though many are, and neither do you necessarily save money by using unregistered workers.

URSSAF and the gendarmes have long been aware of this, and checks at material suppliers and at ferry ports have been carried out for years, but they are much more interested in uncovering the scams on big building and civil engineering projects, usually involving gangs of unregistered North African or Eastern European workers.

[Athene]

If builders cannot find building work in the UK at the moment where it is so much in demand and are turning to France to work unregistered -

DO NOT USE THEM!!!

The workers crossing the Channel are either incompetent or bankrupt in the UK through the shoddy work they do! Genuine builders will all be registered!

DO NOT TAKE THE RISK!

The odds of employing competent unregistered builders either living in France or travelling to find work here are stacked against you!

[oakbri]

To be fair I think you will find France has its fair share of cowboys. I always bring builders over from the UK simply because it is far cheaper. I use builders I know and trust so I have had only good experiences.

I recently needed a whole room plastering. I asked a French company to give me a "devis" for the work. They quoted me over 4000 euros. I obviously binned the quote. Called my friend in the UK who got me a plasterer for 250 pounds a day. I bought him a low cost flight ticket. He came, did the job in 2 days and it was perfect. As you can imagine I saved a huge amount of money.

Another friend of mine engaged a French company to pave his drive and put up a fence. They arrived, demanded hlaf the money up front. Laid a couple of tiles and disappeared. Then 2 months later they had the cheek to come looking for more money before they would do any more work. My friend cleared them off and again brought someone from the UK to do the job.

 

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

The word cowboy implies, as far as I am concerned, those who do a bad job. Those who do a good job for half the price should be thanked for bucking the system. The problem is to decide which is which.

As for clamping down, hypocritical nonsense. Make the 'black' legal and watch the economy boom.[6]

Discuss.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Anybody using this Forum knows the risks of bringing any sort of artisan over here - it may have been cheaper in the short term oakbri but all you need is a serious accident and if you're not honest, truthful, legal and decent here, you can kiss goodbye to saving money.

Not suggesting the Brits don't do a good job but if they're working here and you're paying them and they are technically on the black, you don't have a chance if anything goes wrong. 

[Nick Trollope]

I'm sure oakbri's mates did a sterling job. They just did it illegally.

Molesting children and selling drugs is also illegal. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[LesFlamands]

[quote user="oakbri"]

To be fair I think you will find France has its fair share of cowboys. I always bring builders over from the UK simply because it is far cheaper. I use builders I know and trust so I have had only good experiences.

I recently needed a whole room plastering. I asked a French company to give me a "devis" for the work. They quoted me over 4000 euros. I obviously binned the quote. Called my friend in the UK who got me a plasterer for 250 pounds a day. I bought him a low cost flight ticket. He came, did the job in 2 days and it was perfect. As you can imagine I saved a huge amount of money.

[/quote]

If they are cheaper it is simply because they are not paying tax, social charges or decennale insurance and therefore working illegally. They come from the UK so if there's trouble they just go home but as you have property here and are blatantly breaking the law you could land yourself with a very heavy fine or even a short spell at the Republics pleasure.

If you look you'll find that French rates are less than £250 a day. We charge a lot less than that and we're considered expensive by some. Some Artisans here as in the UK try overcharging because they're overloaded with work or probaly think you're going to be a tricky customer.

[oakbri]

The builder I use does pay tax, but obviously in the UK. I am not sure how you would calculate the tax owed to the French system for a few days work over here. He also has full international public liability insurance. He often does jobs in Dubai and other middle eastern countries so I am sure his insurance is sufficient.

I did not realise this was illegal, I thought with the common market and all that you could work where you want.

Les Flamands, I was also able to get hold of a plasterer for less than 250 a day, I think it was around the 150 a day mark but I can't remember for sure. The reason I payed over the odds was because the guy was very highly recommended, and for good reason. When he finished the walls were like glass and he left the place spick and span. And I still saved a packet on what the locals wanted.

Can someone enlighten me as to the legalities of UK builders working here, as I said I genuinley did not know.

[AnOther]

I think there is a problem with definitions, for instance, exactly when is a job a job ?

If you approach a builder, UK or otherwise, and say, come and do so and so for me for and pay him xx £ or € to do it then that is clearly a job and a commercial transaction.

On the other hand however, say you have a mate who's a carpenter and you ask him over for a few days, during which time he builds a cupboard or some such for you for which you are very grateful and pay him, are you really guilty of employing somebody on the black ?

A sense of proportion has to be kept otherwise you couldn't even ask a friend or neighbour to fit a plug to the end of a piece of wire for you without falling foul of the law.

[Mel Prett]

If a builder is registered i.e. pays tax social dues etc in any eec country he is free to work in another eec country. The cost factor of bringing someone here with fares running about fetching materials feeding them ect and not knowing that the French norms are not being broken is another thing.Would you bring a someone from  the south of France to work in the north? The main reason for useing British builders not living here is the fact that most people do not have the French to say what they want done.There are many fantastic british builders living in france but there are also a lot of Brits here that although are reg here speak English a lot better than they can build and charge for that as well I wonder if these builders will still be around in 15 years local lads have to live here there family are here and so is there reputation.

Maybe all those people who bring materials from England that dont have norm francais on them should check with there insurance companys. I know of sombody who plumbed their house with British goods the house flooded and the payout was nil.

Mel

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

In France they won't believe you if you say that Ernie, such is the stupid position and the paranoia over someone earning a few bob on the side. People who need the money are forced into illegality to give their families a decent standard of living and then some snidy little creep reports them. I have been trumpeting for years that the noir should be recognised and everyone should have the right to earn up to say 10% of their salary extra. If the unemployed were given this too it would ease the pressure on the taxpayer. For the lawabiders, there is plenty of work out there and more would be created. And there should be much severer penalties for those who swindle customers.

[Val_2]

Working illegally aside, there arises the question if an accident should occur. As anyone knows when you enter a french hospital or doctors you have to give info and in hospital especially all the paperwork has to be completed thoroughly. Someone working in France, not registered or resident and without any health cover would not only be in trouble but would drag the householder into the mess to and if loss of limb or life occurred, the penalties are unthinkable. Do you remember the elderly british couple on the Riviera about four years back who hired a young lad to do gardening onthe black and he lost a finger, they lost their home I believe to pay for the medical expenses and his loss of income and the fines levied by the authorities. If people want to employ foreign labour, then don't shout about it on a www forum for those legit here to get all upset about as it is seen as taking the bread from their mouths.

[Ron Avery]

Les Flamands, I was also able to get hold of a plasterer for less than £250 a day, I think it was around the 150 a day mark but I can't remember for sure. 

No doubt you cannot remember, it  must have been at least 10 years ago[:-))]  Plasterers at £150 a day, you must be joking, the only way anybody can work like that is cash in hand and of course if you provided all tools and materials, which is how you did it wasn't it. Hardly comparable with a legal French artisan situation is it?

[shimble]

never had much time for most of the brits here ive happily paid french artisans worked with french artisans and had french friends thats why i came to france maybe if some of the brits tried learning the language a bit and stopped assosciating with other brits they might start to see the merits of the french artisans lifestyle and culture if you dont like the french way then go back to england

[oakbri]

Of course I provided the materials, do you think I would fly plaster in from England???? It was actually around 18 months ago. I am amazed at how bitchy some of you are. I never said anything offensive to deserve it, I merely offered my opinion and experiences and asked for some advice, its called an adult conversation.

As I understand the builder didn't actually break all the laws as you first implied as he is insured and a tax payer, it just seems to get up your nose that some people use common sense to save money.

I think I will leave this topic now as I don't want to ask any more questions and offend anyone else.

 

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="oakbri"]

Can someone enlighten me as to the legalities of UK builders working here, as I said I genuinley did not know.

[/quote]

This has been covered so many times, and I am loath to say it again, but;

Building is a regulated trade in France. To do any building work (for payment, or payment in kind or sexual gratification or whatever, where the transaction is commercial), the builder must be registered and insured in France. UK PL insurance is not enough for France. There are exceptions, but your mates weren't one of them.

Don't bother to spout "free movement of goods and services" or other such drivel because these rules don't overrule national ones...

 

[oakbri]

Many thanks for the reply Nick

I didn't know that, I am new to the forum and have not had time to trawl the many threads yet. Does this situation occur equally all over Europe preventing people in this trade operating across borders. It seems a little unfair as many other industries seem to operate seamlessly across Europe.

[Ron Avery]

The point I think people are trying to make is that you can bring mates over to work with or for you and to help but you cannot employ them.  If you do and they have an accident you are liable, you were also liable to prosecution if the Gendarmnes turned up and asked for papers and registrations.  You say that "As I understand it the builder didn't actually break all the laws as you first implied as he is insured and a tax payer"  Well he did, he was not insured unless his insurance cover extends to France, he is not registered to work in France or a tax payer in France where he was working.

[oakbri]

Many thanks Ron

Wish all the replies were like this. I now understand the picture. And thinking about it I guess the whole CORGI registered game is a similar situation in the UK stopping other Europeans going there to work in similar circumstances.

[AnOther]

Still comes down to definiton though doesn't it, what does "employ" mean.

Hypothetical scenario:

My plasterer mate has got a weeks holiday and fancies coming to check out my new house in France.

I say to him, "you're welcome anytime but how about I pay your air fare and feed and water you and in return you plaster a couple of walls for me whilst you're here"?

Have I employed him ?

In the literal meaning of the word undoubtedly yes I have but could or should this sort of piffling arrangement between friends really be any business of the Gendarmes and the law. Where do you draw the line, ergo my earlier example of fitting a plug for someone ?

I suspect if you went and confessed to something like this they would laugh at you.

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

This ErnieY is the stupid mess that Europe is in.

[LEO]

[quote user="oakbri"]

Many thanks for the reply Nick

I didn't know that, I am new to the forum and have not had time to trawl the many threads yet. Does this situation occur equally all over Europe preventing people in this trade operating across borders. It seems a little unfair as many other industries seem to operate seamlessly across Europe.

[/quote]

Hi oakbri,

The most polite thing that I can say is;

 France is definately different from the rest of Europe.

There are more British people in France who are keen to abide by the strict letter of the law and,

 probably more French people who give two fingers to the same laws!

If the average Frenchman could understand and read everything written on this forum

by the "Brits"

they would be flabbergasted!