Natural Gas question.

[Mattyj198]

This question may seem silly but I am intrested in having a gas stove installed in my house in south west France.  I am 99% sure the town does  not have gas.  I have rented a house before where they had tall gas cylinders outside for the gas stove.  I am assuming this is common in France.  Is this the way they do it?  If so who should I be contacting to get this service hooked up and how does it work?  I have an electric right now but I would love a gas stove.  I have  a neighbour who is French who can do all the talking for me and I also have a local trades man who can do the work for me.  I just need to know what to look for when doing research.

Thanks a bunch guys

Matt

[andyh4]

Statistically most french towns do not have a piped gas supply, so bottle gas is the solution if that applies to you.

 

Bottle gas comes in 2 types - propane and butane - and they have to be handled differently.  In either case you will need special jets fitted to your gas stove to handle the gas safely.  Most stoves will have jets available (especially if bought in France) but some may not - so check before you buy.

 

Propane cylinders have to be stored outdoors for safety reasons.  Butane cylinders have to be stored indoors because during winter they become too cold for the liquid inside to gas off.  (Butane boils at about +0,5°C, below that temperature you will still get gas above the liquid, but as you try to draw the gas off, the liquid tries to evaporate to replace the gas and cools.  The more it cools the less gas you have above the liquid and you have ever diminishing returns).

 

Cylinders come in a whole range of sizes, from the big outdoor ones you describe to quite small ones that can be stored in a cupboard or under the sink (but only butane not propane).

 

With bottled gas you must have an easily accessible cut off valve close to the appliance - in case of fire.

 

If piping the gas is any distance it has to be in solid copper (not flexible) pipework and should be installed by a professional

[Cendrillon]

There's no town gas in our village.

In our holiday home we have a very basic gas cooker (gas for both oven and hob) that has a cupboard within it for storing the large gas bottle. This saves having the bottle outside and putting pipes through the very thick walls. These I think are quite common in France and Italy, if I remember rightly the make is Bompani.

Next door in our tiny gite the oven there is electric but the hob is gas. So we have the small gas cube which fits into one of the kitchen cupboards.

[Hereford]

If you use the normal small, or now available very small, bottles you just buy them at your local garage or supermarket. You don't get them "hooked up" as it were unless using the tall outside ones.

Be aware that the gas seems to burn hotter than UK gas!  We found too with a cheap French gas cooker that the oven, whilst having a temperature gauge, was either hot or hot and burned the bottom of everything we cooked. We also found that the most poplar size gas bottle only lasted about 6 weeks and was a pain to change (unless you have two and a switch to change over). For obvious reasons it always runs out when actually cooking.

We have given up on gas and now have all electric.

Mrs H

[Cendrillon]

Hereford, we only bought our gas oven last year (it replaced the electric oven, gas hob model we had before which I preferred, sadly this option was no longer available) . I agree that controling the gas oven temp. is not easy and the oven is not large however for a holiday home it is o.k.  In the little gite which we made in the small barn, the built in electric oven is far superior as is the separate hob but then we started from scratch. For the house the free standing cooker was really the only option and I do like the gas bottle hidden within the cooker cupboard. As we are not there year round, though we do let the house for a few weeks, the bottle seems to last quite a while.

[Hereford]

Our gas oven bought when house was just for holidays and it did not seem too bad then - though I have to say I found the fact that the bottle was inside the apparatus, as you describe, and therefore very near the oven more than a little scary.  In a holiday home we did not really cook cakes, for example, so the temperature control was less vital.  Once we moved over to live it was impossible!!  The six weeks refers to a time when we lived here but will clearly depend on how much cooking is done.

Sorry for diversion from original question.

Mrs H

[Cendrillon]

Mrs. H , although Andy4H gave a very good factual answer I think your comments / experience and my own will help the O.P.

[Debra]

We have a five ring gas hob over electric ovens and grill.  We use the medium sized gas bottles you get from the likes of Intermarche.  We have a cellar underneath our kitchen so we just put a hole in the floorboards and put the pipe through there so we don't need to take up a cupboard with a bottle.  Easier for changing too.  We have 3 bottles so when we get to the third we take the empty two in to swap for full ones.

Re the gas rings getting too hot - isn't that what happens when you don't have the valves changed?

[Debra]

[quote user="andyh4"]With bottled gas you must have an easily accessible cut off valve close to the appliance - in case of fire. 

If piping the gas is any distance it has to be in solid copper (not flexible) pipework and should be installed by a professional

[/quote]Andy how far is the distance which requires copper piping?  We were told our bottles below the cooker were ok but now I'm wondering.....

[andyh4]

I cannot remember whether it is 1m or 1.5m maximum length of flexible tubing.

 

If you cannot find the regulations then the easiest thing to do is visit a DIY store, since the maximum flexible available will be the maximum length.  If you have a single length of flex joining the bottle to the stove, then it should be OK.  If you have 2 flex's joined together then it may not be.

 

We too were told that the bottle under the sink was a close enough cut off, since we could just disconnect if needed.

[John Brown]

The flex pipes I've fitted have a date stamp along their length. I'm guessing they must be replaced at that date even if they look good.

I think its 5 years ?

If you have gas CH don't ever consider having your cooker connected into that supply. Its a whole new world of regulations.

John

[Jo]

[quote user="Debra"]We have a five ring gas hob over electric ovens and grill.  We use the medium sized gas bottles you get from the likes of Intermarche.  We have a cellar underneath our kitchen so we just put a hole in the floorboards and put the pipe through there so we don't need to take up a cupboard with a bottle.  Easier for changing too.  We have 3 bottles so when we get to the third we take the empty two in to swap for full ones.

Re the gas rings getting too hot - isn't that what happens when you don't have the valves changed?
[/quote] No, I changed the valves to the correct ones for butane gas and have to use a diffuser if I want to simmer something. It does burn hotter than town gas. Likewise the gas oven seems to have just one setting, hot!!

[powerdesal]

The ''valves'' you refer to - do you mean the regulator that fits on the bottle or the jets that are fitted to the stove rings?

[Quillan]

Are we talking valves, jets or both.

My cooker came with two sets of jets, one for town gas and the other for butane. After I had changed them I also had to make an adjustment to the 'valves' at the front of the cooker which meant taking the knobs off and inserting a screwdriver then following the instructions.

The problem with gas ovens can be changing the jet or jets because they are normally at the back and you sort of have to get inside almost to change them. If by chance you have not changed the oven jets(s) but have adjusted the valves or even done nothing with the oven at all it would sort of run either on or off as you describe. I did try it on mine before making the changes just out of curiosity to see what happens and hob was either on or off with only very minor control. Once done I can simmer etc with no problems.

[sid]

[quote user="Debra"]We have a five ring gas hob over electric ovens and grill.  We use the medium sized gas bottles you get from the likes of Intermarche.  We have a cellar underneath our kitchen so we just put a hole in the floorboards and put the pipe through there so we don't need to take up a cupboard with a bottle.  Easier for changing too.  We have 3 bottles so when we get to the third we take the empty two in to swap for full ones.

Re the gas rings getting too hot - isn't that what happens when you don't have the valves changed?
[/quote]

Debra, I just noticed your reply. For safety reasins you shouldn't keep gas cylinders in a cellar. Propane should be kept outside, and butane is best kept in a cupboard near the appliance so that you can easily access the cutoff valve in an emergency.  Gas is heavier than air and in the event of a leak it would fill the cellar creating an explosion risk and an asphixiation risk to anyone entering.  [:-))]

 

 

[Quillan]

Sid is right to a point. Firstly if you keep propane in a cellar or garage which you can do you need a vent at ground level to allow gas to exit the building. You can also buy an LP gas detector/alarm. They are more expensive than smoke detectors, around £60 and are mounted at floor level. As Sid says this stuff is very volatile once it gets out the bottle and could potentially blow up your home if you don't take the right precautions. You should buy a new regulator and rubber pipe and replace both when you get to the replacement date on the pipe. By far the best precaution, as Sid says, and the simplest is to drill a hole through the exterior wall and place the bottle outside. If you want you can make a wooden cover to make it more pleasing on the eye. You can also have a two position automatic switch, have two bottles and when one is empty it will change to the other then you can replace the empty one with no loss of gas supply.

[sid]

Quillan, I don't think there is any doubt about the requirement to keep bottled gas away from cellars or indeed uncovered drains. If gas escapes in a cellar, (below ground level) a vent will not help at all. The gas will not rise up to exit the vent until the cellar is completely full. It is heavier than air and always drops to the lowest level. The result is a reservoir of gas which if ignited by a spark, even from a light switch, would cause a massive explosion. There is also the danger of someone entering the cellar and being overcome and falling to the floor; they would be asphixiated.

I cannot state this strongly enough; please don't keep gas in the cellar.

All of the gas suppliers state this quite clearly.

Propane is usually stored and accessed outside the building, and here in France it is normal to use only rigid (ie copper) piping. Propane gasses at temperatures below freezing so is OK kept outside. The normal arrangement it to have one or two tall cylinders with a changeover valve arrangement. Butane doesn't work so well at low temperatures and for that reason is usually kept indoors near to the appliance.

See FAQ here:   http://www.totalgaz.fr/particuliers/questions-reponses/bouteilles/stockage#item-121-4

[elamessa]

You need to sign a contract with one of the gas suppliers (Intermarché, Carrefore, LeClerc etc) to get the bottle size and gas (Propane, Butane) of your choice, there is usually a rental fee for your first bottle(s) on top of the price of the gas.

I would suggest you visit someone like Darty website or shop and check out the complete range of cookers on offer to see what is suitable for your needs.

We have just changed our previous cooker for a latest model and as other posters have said they come with different jets for town gas or Butane/Propane. The gas oven on ours seems to be very easy to adjust the temperature.

HTH

[Quillan]

[quote user="sid"]

Quillan, I don't think there is any doubt about the requirement to keep bottled gas away from cellars or indeed uncovered drains. If gas escapes in a cellar, (below ground level) a vent will not help at all. The gas will not rise up to exit the vent until the cellar is completely full. It is heavier than air and always drops to the lowest level. The result is a reservoir of gas which if ignited by a spark, even from a light switch, would cause a massive explosion. There is also the danger of someone entering the cellar and being overcome and falling to the floor; they would be asphixiated.

I cannot state this strongly enough; please don't keep gas in the cellar.

All of the gas suppliers state this quite clearly.

Propane is usually stored and accessed outside the building, and here in France it is normal to use only rigid (ie copper) piping. Propane gasses at temperatures below freezing so is OK kept outside. The normal arrangement it to have one or two tall cylinders with a changeover valve arrangement. Butane doesn't work so well at low temperatures and for that reason is usually kept indoors near to the appliance.

See FAQ here:   http://www.totalgaz.fr/particuliers/questions-reponses/bouteilles/stockage#item-121-4

[/quote]

Being involved in 'boating' for many years I am quite used to dealing with gas bottles and the precautions involved in storing them. I have also seen the results of getting it wrong or more to the point the 'nothingness' of getting it wrong. Also not all cellars are under ground. We technically have a cellar which whilst under the house is not, in it's entirety, below ground. Personally I am quite amazed that the 'rules' in France allows for any bottle to be kept in the house if not contained by metal but you can and that's what people do. You may also of noticed it was only a small part of your comments that I disagreed with and reiterated what you said about keeping them outside. By the way not many people get asphyxiated by LP gas with these size bottles unless you were in a very small room (and I mean small like toilet sized) because as you rightly say it sinks, plus you would smell it straight away and if there was that amount in the room you would probably blow yourself up by simply turning on the light.

[sid]

Fine.   It was the "up to a point" that I objected to.

I too, have been using bottled gas for a long time, over 35 years, so I am well aware of the dangers.

I take your point about not all cellars being below ground level.

If someone tripped going down into a cellar they would effectively drown just as you would in a couple of inches of water. If you're unconscious a sense of smell is not much use.

Another point often overlooked is that adequate ventilation must be allowed in any room where gas is burned; the burning process burns up the oxygen.

I think I've said enough on the subject.

 

 

[powerdesal]

Another point often overlooked is that adequate ventilation must be allowed in any room where gas is burned; the burning process burns up the oxygen.

A good point but it refers to any fuel, all burning uses up the oxygen. No oxygen = no burning ( also no air to breathe )

[Rabbie]

[quote user="powerdesal"]Another point often overlooked is that adequate ventilation must be allowed in any room where gas is burned; the burning process burns up the oxygen. A good point but it refers to any fuel, all burning uses up the oxygen. No oxygen = no burning ( also no air to breathe )[/quote]The main danger in burning hydrocarbon fuels with inadequate ventilation and low oxygen is the production of Carbon Monoxide which will soon kill even before all the oxygen is used up.

[powerdesal]

Very true.

CO detectors are a must and are quite cheap.

[powerdesal]

I know that Butane cylinders are allowed in doors and Propane should be stored outside but why?

Forgetting the vapourisation temperature differences, both are flammable gasses, both are dangerous.

Does anyone know the logic of the 'rules'.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="powerdesal"]I know that Butane cylinders are allowed in doors and Propane should be stored outside but why? Forgetting the vapourisation temperature differences, both are flammable gasses, both are dangerous. Does anyone know the logic of the 'rules'.[/quote]Ideally both should be kept outdoors or at least in the case of butane in a well ventilated place. However because butane does not vapourise properly in low temperatures it is not practical to keep it outdoors while using it. So IMO the vapourisation temperature difference is the answer to your question