yellowbelly Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 I would like to pose a hypothetical question. I am an early retired civil servant, therefore my pension is taxed in the UK. I have a UK residence and would like to purchase a second home in France. How would anyone know how long I spent in each country per year?I understand the Inland Revenue being hot on highly paid superstars etc but would they bother with me if I spent more time in France than I should?Any thoughts very welcome.Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 I wouldn't have thought that the IR would care less as they are going to tax your pension regardless. However, I understand you could get fined if you don't fill in a French taxform if you are supposed to. As your pension is taxed in the UK, you only have to declare it on the French tax forms, you won't get taxed twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apero Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 [quote user="yellowbelly"]I understand the Inland Revenue being hot on highly paid superstars etc but would they bother with me if I spent more time in France than I should[/quote]Just remember 'big brother' is watching. Every time you fly your passport is scanned and every time you sail your 'number plate' is scanned. One small word 'tax' vast implications. Live up to your name, you'll sleep better at night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 [quote user="yellowbelly"]I would like to pose a hypothetical question. I am an early retired civil servant, therefore my pension is taxed in the UK. I have a UK residence and would like to purchase a second home in France. How would anyone know how long I spent in each country per year?I understand the Inland Revenue being hot on highly paid superstars etc but would they bother with me if I spent more time in France than I should?Any thoughts very welcome.Derek[/quote]This 183-day rule is a bit of a red herring. As an EU citizen, you can be resident wherever you like (in the old EU) without hinderance. Where you are tax resident is broadly speaking, up to you. If, as the earlier poster says your UK pension is taxed in the UK, then it makes sense to be tax resident there.However, you will have healthcare problems if you live in France for enough of the year to suggest that you should be resident here... But again broadly speaking, you are tax resident somewhere the day after you decide that you are (but you must fill in a French tax return before the authorities will ahve any interest in you....)Clear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Although France does have a 183 day rule, like the UK's, there are several other criteria used in France to establish tax residency. Sometimes just owning or renting a property in France can be sufficient. You also have to consider the British HMRC's 90 day rule. So you will find it very hard indeed to avoid residency (which as you will know is a different concept from domicile) in either country, or even both countries. As far as Britain is concerned, publication IR20 will give you a comprehensive explanation. I do not know of an equivalent French official booklet, you would probably need to get hold of PKF's annual guide. The more general books give some information but are nowhere near comprehensive or current.Some find they are better off taking French residency, but others do not. There are many things to consider, like 'contributions sociales' (CSG/CRDS/PS which have been discussed recently in some detail here), capital gains and inheritance taxes, health and social security charges (not to be confused with contributions sociales) etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob T Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Even if you become a French resident, your pension will allways be taxed in the UK. Being an ex civil servant in early retirement myself, I have looked into this. I also get an RAF pension which comes under the same rules and I live here with no ties to the UK (except for having to pay tax on the pension). If your pension is your only income then there are no worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Bob do you pay any CSG or CRDS on your pension ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianpmills Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Where do you wish to be tax (and hence health) resident? I presume the UK. The french authorities may ask you to justify your non-residence status - in which case you just send a copy of a UK tax bill/notice of coding, etc. A proper answer really depends on your intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob T Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Poppy, no I didn't, but I am still on the E121 or is it the 106 for medical. Not sure if I will next year, but our income is bellow the combines allowance here so I am not sure if that makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianpmills Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Oh and if you were a hypothetical popstar and really wish to cover your tracks you could think about spending mostly cash rather than leaving a spending record and the telephone calls you make, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 I think you ned to do a search on the recent social contributions threads, Bob because you are another one who thinks CSG and CRDS which are social security payments have some link with your E106 or E121, UK forms for personal health arrangements. CRG CRDS etc have nothing whatsoever to do with E forms. You don't pay CRDS/CSG etc on your UK taxed pension but you will on the interest on your savings in the UK. taxed in the UK or not and when your E 106 runs out, unless you have an E121. what you pay into the French Health care system will be based on your total income, not just what is taxed here. Another bit of clarification, the 183 day rule for tax residency is a myth, you are tax resident the day after you move here, it only comes into consideration if somebody is trying to fall between the gap. If they want to, both the UK and the French can tax you if they think you are living here or in the UK, the 183 day rule is invoked if there is any dispute and its up to you to prove otherwise, there are a few people here and in Spain who try to play ducks and drakes with the system and not pay tax anywhere, but what invariably happens is they end up paying tax in both countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 [quote user="Apero"][Every time you fly your passport is scanned .[/quote]No it's not! They look at it, they look at you, and hand it back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Val 2 has often posted that where there was some question the officials knew exactly when she had travelled to France and back - never rely on officialdom not knowing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 [quote user="yellowbelly"]I understand the Inland Revenue being hot on highly paid superstars etc but would they bother with me if I spent more time in France than I should?[/quote]I don't think that HM Revenue & Customs (as the former Inland Revenue is now known) could give a toss how long you spend in France. The French fonctionnaires will be interested, though, if you appear to be living in France with no official means of support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowbelly Posted October 23, 2006 Author Share Posted October 23, 2006 Many thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply. I am not looking to avoid paying my way, just that for the time being I would prefer to remain in the UK health system. I too am not sure that passport scanning has anything to do with residency claims, from what I can see it has more to do with tracking and identifying criminals and potential terrorists.Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 People who try to manipulate their residency status for the purposes of tax evasion are criminals..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 But arranging to spend the requisite amount time in Britan to legally retain British tax and health residency is a perfcetly legimate method of financial planning. It is only criminal if you make an intentionally wrong declaration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Precisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Tax avoidance is legal and prudent, tax evasion is criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob T Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Ron, thanks for that info. So I will pay on the interest from my UK bank then, does that mean that I ned to have some money in the UK to earn interest? I did not think that I had any. My only income is my RAF pension, so why do you assume that I have other income? I have broken all ties with the UK apart from having to pay tax there, and I have no choise in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowbelly Posted October 27, 2006 Author Share Posted October 27, 2006 What relevance to this thread is the comment from sunday driver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hastobe Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 [quote user="powerdesal"]Tax avoidance is legal and prudent, tax evasion is criminal.[/quote]LOL tell Mr Brown that!!!Kathie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJT Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Does anyone know if the 183 day rule applies to spouses? For example, if I were to stay in France for more than 183 days for one year only for renovations and my husband come and go mostly on weekends, would this rule apply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 It applies to everybody, and as the tax return is household based your husbands UK earnings could get dragged in. However unless you make a habit of it, I really don't think anyone is going to get to excited by a minor infringement, unless you have real earnings in France to declare. If that were the case then they might get more interested as the rate of tax on the French earnings would be affected. Upwards!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 If your main, home, family, or dependants are in France, you are deemed to be tax resident in France so you declare your income there. You can also be tax resident in Britain, and tax already paid in Britian will be offset against your French liability so it's not as bad as it looks - but neither is it a tax dodge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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