It's not looking good for 2009

[Russethouse]

There are people on this board who did their calculations on a rate of 1.10 - are you saying that they are somehow at fault too ?

[Jonzjob]

"Nice to see Bugsy and et al have resorted to playground name calling...."

I seem to remember a playground chant along the lines of sticks and stones etc. But maybe an old service expression fits too 'If the cap fits'?

I think that the name calling was started by someone other than Bugsy and et al by the way?

I am afraid that all of the people on the earth can not be high flying money wizards. Some of us had to work for our living before we retired and not 'speculate' with money that is not ours to fool around with and then walk away with big fat bonuses for screwing things up.

I spent enough of my working life behind the counters of lots of banks to know what goes on and how the customers are charged or not according to the whim of young girls who work there!

[krusty]

Woah get real , nobody is name calling.

Scooby do the cartoon  is a male dog , so a member uses a name scooby and is female .....lighten up and smile [:D]

[Scooby]

It was the bunch of w_a_n_k_e_r_s inference I was referring to - not the references to Scooby.  

[Scooby]

[quote user="Jonzjob"]

I am afraid that all of the people on the earth can not be high flying money wizards.

[/quote]

It doesn't need a high flying money wizard to do those sort of calculations - just realism, a little pessimism and basic common sense.

[Russethouse]

But many people thought they were employing those qualities when they made their calculations and it is still hurting....it's just not an exact science.....

[Scooby]

I guess some people see their 'dream' and forget their common sense.  It's like the would be restoration project managers.  How many times has it been said on here to double the spend, triple the time and you'll probably still be off wack.  Same goes with financial planning...

[5-element]

[quote]A lot of those who have got themselves into a mess are those who have not considered worst case scenarios*[/quote]

This notion of "getting oneself into a mess" through"not considering worst case scenario" is a very interesting one.

I think that those of us who find ourselves in a mess through a variety of "accidents de vie" which have nothing to do with financial planning (as is often the case) might be reeling from the way you effectively kick our heads in, and gloat about your "foresight".

Does everyone lead their lives thinking that any worst case scenario will happen to them? I really don't think so.

You don't need to be a British expat in France to have your life turned upside down and your finances severely compromised by things which no amount of financial planning would have factored in, things like

- a major stroke at age 50 for a very active and fit husband just as he was in the middle of renovating the house. His wife ends up pushing the wheelchair, making sure the tubes stay in place, and communicating with him as he has also lost all speech.

- teenage son commits suicide. His mother has a total breakdown. Father stops work to try and look after her.

- daughter is diagnosed as having bi-polar disorder and goes on spending sprees when she is up.

- then other child turns out to be dealing hard drugs and an addict himself

- first grandchild being born with severe birth defects,

- wife walks into her house to find husband in bed with her best friend, or just as bad, with HIS best friend.

- hang-gliding accident leaves partner tetraplegic

- wife got AIDS through blood transfusion

- freak weather turns your house into a pile of rubble - ongoing dispute with insurance...

- you are diagnosed with some degenerative disease, struck in mid-career. You are on a short-term contract, the employer does not renew your contract, as a way of getting rid of you

Of course, none of the above (all of which I know personally, some of which are ordinary French people) could ever happen to anyone of us, could it? At least not when we are so clever and have planned our lives so carefully. And even if it did, of course it would not affect our financial status...

Perhaps next time you wish to share your pearls of wisdom, or to draw attention to how smart and successful you are, you can just spare a thought for those who are struck by tragedies. The injuries are bad enough without having insults added to them.

 

[JMB]

 

Er I don't think anyone was referring to physical accidents which hit people. This thread is about people getting themselves into the financial mire by not planning there emigration properly, and trying to live in a western industrial country on 50p a month. There is a category on this forum about saving money on living expenses. Now I think that is negative and we all should be thinking of making a lot more money instead of trying to live wrapped in a blanket or whatever to try to save it. If people want to live cheaply then they should go and live in a mud hut in some god forsaken village in Bangladesh where the gdp is 50p per month.

[Bugsy]

Scooby, you seem to have been distracted from the main point of this thread by concentrating on the trivia rather than the real issues. I clearly touched a nerve. The light-hearted reference to 'Bankers' is probably felt by most of the worlds population at this time and if you can't see that, well, you're missing the point. The 2.5 billion that has been paid out in bonuses to top bank staff since the start of this crisis didn't really happen afterall, did it.

You may be under the impression that you and 'your bank' have done things right but the reality is quite different. Banks and Credit companies in the UK have for years tempted people into loans they could ill-afford in the certain knowledge that the party would go on forever. (Credit card full Sir, no problem, we'll increase you limit etc). It has now fallen down around their ears yet they still refuse to shoulder any blame ("its the problem in America, the Middle-east, Botswana, the Moon" etc).

I'm probably unusual in that in all my life I have never, apart from a mortgage, ever had a loan or borrowed money, working on the belief that if I couldn't afford it, I didn't have it. Old-fashioned maybe but I still believe it to be the way to be.

 

Just read what I said in answer to your previous post and tell me that its not true.

[quote user="Bugsy"][quote user="Scooby"]

Those whose pain is self inflicted by stupid financial planning, trying to cash in on a bull market or just naive enough to believe that the markets don't change are their own worst enemies.

[/quote]

So that would include all the Main UK Banks, Building Societies, Financial Institutions, Money Markets and Labour Government.

[/quote]

Gary.

[5-element]

[quote user="JMB"]

 

Er I don't think anyone was referring to physical accidents which hit people. This thread is about people getting themselves into the financial mire by not planning there emigration properly, and trying to live in a western industrial country on 50p a month. There is a category on this forum about saving money on living expenses. Now I think that is negative and we all should be thinking of making a lot more money instead of trying to live wrapped in a blanket or whatever to try to save it. If people want to live cheaply then they should go and live in a mud hut in some god forsaken village in Bangladesh where the gdp is 50p per month.

[/quote]

My point was that unless you are extremely wealthy, any big accident (physical or otherwise) which hits people, will shatter their "careful" financial planning. Should one be accused of being stupid or careless through finding oneself in a tight spot through some human tragedy? Should one be accused of being stupid and careless because the low-life, greedy bankers and financiers who are "thinking of making a lot more money", just as you advocate?

Presumably, those people in Bangladesh (assuming they are part of the human race, which they might not in your book) are also guilty of  THEIR OWN bad financial planning.

Physical or otherAnd no doubt you have no time for those people in Bangladesh, who have to live on 50p a month as a result of human greed.

[JMB]

Bugsey. Are you trying to tell us that people who get over their heads in credit are not responsible for it, it is the bankers fault for lending and they should have protected the poor little things from themselves. 

[JMB]

I bet you all wish you had been bankers and drawn those super fat bonuses. Then you wouldn't have to worry about falling pounds.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="JMB"]

 

This thread is about people getting themselves into the financial mire by not planning there emigration properly, and trying to live in a western industrial country on 50p a month.

[/quote]

I think I'll just agree to disagree with you JMB as you clearly look at this from a completely opposite angle to me.

The sweeping generalisation that those who, for no fault of their own, are now finding it difficult financially are some how to blame is simply ludicous.

Quite how, for example, an ordinary couple who have worked all their lives, paid all their dues and moved to France to simply enjoy their retirement are in any way to blame for the current loss of a third of their income due to the exchange rate, is beyond me.

Its been said by others but you seem to have missed the point that not everyone had highly-paid careers, giving them money to invest etc, indeed I would hazard a guess that the vast majority don't fit into that category.

You are, clearly, from what you have said, very fortunate, but that fact alone does not give you the right to lambast anyone who isn't.

A little bit of compassion goes a long way.

Gary.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="JMB"]Bugsey. Are you trying to tell us that people who get over their heads in credit are not responsible for it, it is the bankers fault for lending and they should have protected the poor little things from themselves. [/quote]

I think that they do have a responsibility to ensure that the person being given the loan has a reasonable chance of actually paying it back, yes.

How many parents do you know who have sat down with a pair of scissors, a cheque-book and a few credit cards to bail out a son or daughter that has found themselves in trouble after being let down the path of despair by banks and credit card companies and their ludicrous mail-shot offers.

Gary.

[5-element]

[quote user="JMB"]I bet u all wish yyoou had been bankers and drawn those super fat bonuses. .[/quote]

Not so sure about that JMB. Some people have a sense of ethics, want to be able to live with themselves, and realise that nothing happens in isolation.

 

[JMB]

 

Bugsy.People have to learn self reliance and self discipline. There are too many people relying on the nanny state to get them out of trouble. I have been in business for a very long time and the one thing I have learned is that the only person to rely on in times of stress is me.

[JMB]

[quote user="5-element"]

[quote user="JMB"]I bet u all wish yyoou had been bankers and drawn those super fat bonuses. .[/quote]

Not so sure about that JMB. Some people have a sense of ethics, want to be able to live with themselves, and realise that nothing happens in isolation.

 

[/quote]

 

 Sorry but you can't eat ethics. If I tried to pay my employees in ethics they would not be very happy. You must have had a sheltered life if you think that the world is brimming with ethics.

 

 

[dragonrouge]

Scooby I have read your various posting plus others.  However before doing so this morning I made a decision that being whether to stock the logs it being cold here in the Vendee or to have a cup of coffee and just have a 'play around' with the computer.  There are consequences of that decision in that my wife may well have views on my decision making process.  But the decision was mine and the consequences are mine.

My career has been in two distinct areas one banking and where I had responsibility for the Peak District but did not live there for I did not like the area.  Again a decision with the consequences being mine.   I did not like Buxton or Rollestone on Dove or indeed Derby lots of people do but again their decision.  I chose Worcestershire.

Then later the career law again a decision.  Thus unless HMG have enacted a new law and Her Majesty has graciously given Royal Assent there there is no law against dreaming.  We all have dreams for ourselves our children their children and a whole host of other dreams such as Wales again becoming Six Nation Champions and us winning the Ashes next season with Simon Jones again knocking them over.

The point is dreams are personal and despite all best practices you can build in as many contingencies as you like and it will not be enough but dreams are dreams and further down the line the consequences are highly personal.  However we bought in 2001 and when the rate was 1.675.  Our decision but the rate could have gone up and gone down I built in a contingency of 1.11 so do you think that was logical intelligent and sensible planning?  Could I have your crystal ball and think of parity back in 2001.  Certainly not.

By background and with my forefathers being founder members of the then Labour Party I was a socialist but my views have changed.  Again a personal decision and I must live both with my background and the consequences.  But a decision with consequences.

Think about 84/85 when the pits were closed down do you think those miners throughout the UK who took out mortgages in say 1980 could envisage that Baroness Thatcher and Scargill could embark upon such a challenge that would see communities wiped out and miners losing their homes?

We were fortunate or otherwise to keep our house in the UK and its there like thousands of others through bloody hard work no one has given us anything and no one on this forum wants anything.  All they need is some compassion some understanding and someone to say 'but for the grace of God'

I am now going to have a swipe after what hopefully has been a logical argument to counter yours.   My career has shown me in equal measures corporate greed in the creed of so called Shareholders do not believe it.  Some of our Captains of industry are in it for themselves not the shareholders.

Finally our UK home is in Chepstow which is of course in the Wye Valley.  But I live in Chepstow.

I think your postings are objectionable add nothing and perhaps you would now reflect?

I doubt it.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="JMB"] 

Bugsy.People have to learn self reliance and self discipline. There are too many people relying on the nanny state to get them out of trouble. I have been in business for a very long time and the one thing I have learned is that the only person to rely on in times of stress is me.

[/quote]

That doesn't make you unique JM, lots of people, myself included, have lived within those parameters. The sad fact is that the UK now have a whole generation who seem to have forgotten how to live within their means. A 'must have now society' living on credit in a never-never land. A sweeping generalisation, of course, but sadly true in so many cases. You only have to look at the 'single mother' explosion that has taken place since the government increased the benefits available.

This, of course has little to do with the plight of the many retired people living on a pension in their one and only home in france. They, and I'm repeating myself here, are not to blame for what has happened in the financial markets (unless the're bankers, of course [:D]), but are finding varying degrees of hardship at this time.

A little compassion for those affected costs nothing, does it.

Gary.

[5-element]

[quote user="JMB"]

Sorry but you can't eat ethics. If I tried to pay my employees in ethics they would not be very happy. You must have had a sheltered life if you think that the world is brimming with ethics. 

[/quote]

The need to eat, obviously, is something that we all share. However, ethics is not something which is incompatible with that need.

I am not aware of suggesting that "the world is brimming with ethics". I realise that if it was, we would not be having this discussion.

But I, for one, am thankful for people who do have a strong sense of ethics - it provides the world with firemen (the people who cut you out of your car), ambulance drivers who will rush you to the hospital, medics and nurses who will save your life, the cleaning staff who will mop up your body fluids, all those underpaid people who work because they need to eat, but who also derive some satisfaction out of doing something "worthwhile". Plus of course, all those ordinary people who will give a helping hand to anyone without expecting anything in return, just out of sheer humanity. Could it be that you are the one who has had a sheltered life?

So far.

[Cat]

Humanity is a good word 5-E, it's a little like humility.  Difficult to have one without a little of the other.

I've just had a peep at JMB's forum profile.

[NormanH]

I chose to live in France for several reasons, and my planning was such that I developed several different sources of income, all small but each independent.

That was prudence.

But the longer I am here the prouder I am of the country I have chosen to live in. It is not based totally on 'l'argent roi'

It has a constitution of which some of the founding articles are:

ARTICLE PREMIER. Le but de la société est le bonheur commun. - Le

gouvernement est institué pour garantir à l'homme la puissance de ses

droits naturels et imprescriptibles.

ART. 2. - Ces droits sont l'égalité, la liberté, la sûreté, la propriété.

ART. 21. - Les secours publics sont une dette sacrée. La société doit

la subsistance aux citoyens malheureux, soit en leur procurant du

travail, soit en assurant les moyens d'exister à ceux qui sont hors

d'état de travailler.

and : ART. 35. - Quand le gouvernement viole les droits du peuple,

l'insurrection est, pour le peuple et pour chaque portion du peuple, le

plus sacré des droits et le plus indispensable des devoirs.

I don't think Thatcherism could have happened here.

[Benjamin]

I always think that searching for people or causes to

blame in a crisis is a waste of time. When you're solving the problem

causing the crisis it normally becomes evident what it's causes were in

the first place.

However that's not written in stone for me as certain posters seem to

be attaching blame for the mess that many individuals find themselves

in at the moment on the individual's own actions. So who decided that

lending to individuals on low or even no income was a good idea?

It certainly wasn't my Aunty Joan in St Ives or even my mate Tony who

lives the other side of La Roche sur Yon. It was the Banks and bankers.

Who then decided to parcel these loans with other loans and sell them off around the World? It was the Banks and bankers.

Who ran the risk assessment systems to determine if these loan packages were good value? It was the Banks and bankers.

Who keeps putting the message "Benjamin you've been pre-approved for a loan of £ 10,000" on my screen? It is the Banks and the bankers.

It's pointless listing any more as they just go on and on. It's bankers

who saw even more and more opportunity to increase their year end

bonuses by getting into even riskier and riskier areas of lending. Even

the industry itself is now acknowledging that indiscriminate

incentivised bonus schemes are not the way forward and have contributed

greatly to the present crisis.

There is one element of truth in what JMB has posted (but no succour

for those suffering) in that now is the time to look at opportunities if you have the room to manoeuvre but sadly for many that will not be the case.

Governments do not fair any better when they say that regulations will

be tightened. Who was in charge of the regulators in the first place?

No I'm not even going there.

As for Scooby and the personal risk assessment policy that she employs

before doing anything, don't you think it may have been a good idea to

have suggested a similar system to you bosses at the bank or are you

the boss?  [:D]

[Scooby]

[quote user="JMB"]Bugsey. Are you trying to tell us that people who get over their heads in credit are not responsible for it, it is the bankers fault for lending and they should have protected the poor little things from themselves. [/quote]

Exactly - like the ooops I had 14 kids so I need a great big house from the council.  I was always brought up to take personal responsibility for myself and my family.