Is the UK OAP paid gross or net to French residents?

[Mikep]

Incidentally, you can have your UK OAP paid in euros directly into your French bank account. The exact amount varies with the exchange rate which the government obtains at that time, but it's more convenient when you fill in your (French) tax forms - no need to worry about exchange rates.

It's worked well for us since we started receiving the generous allowance after only 40 years contributions.

[Judith]

[quote user="fluffy tree"]sadly Judith that's par for the course now...and the chances of speaking to someone who really understands the technicalities of residence and non-residence in the UK are slim - so phonecalls to the SA Helpline can be lengthy and frustrating - it's worth trying the HMRC website for guidance.[/quote]

Yes, that's why you need to speak to a technical advisor (as they now call them!).  In fact, whilst I was filing in my form (which would have been dead simple if I was not French resident and paying taxes here), I had one lot of advice, and then when I started to fill in the form, thought, now that cannot  be right, it might be the simpler way, but it won't claim back the tax I'd paid - so I phoned again and got a different reply!  And thus had even more forms to fill in .... BUT if you can get someone who knows.... they can get it right.

[Judith]

[quote user="Mikep"]Incidentally, you can have your UK OAP paid in euros directly into your French bank account. The exact amount varies with the exchange rate which the government obtains at that time, but it's more convenient when you fill in your (French) tax forms - no need to worry about exchange rates.

[/quote]

Yes - they get the best rate they can, and it is by far the best way - and one less thing to worry about.

[tinabee]

Keep an eye on your tax code for the UK. In any case, fill in the "France Individual" form and submit it with your next French tax return

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/france-individual.pdf

That way, both tax offices know officially that you are French resident, and any tax that may have been taken at source in the UK can be reclaimed.

 

[NormanH]

Another of your great links[:D]

With that and the one you gave me to send off my pension claim you and idun have sorted me out!

[Gardian]

Sackcloth and ashes time for me!  I'm very sorry for my previous post which was wrong: in my defence, it was always my understanding of the situation and the Impots over here had confirmed that.

As a result of the link to the Form France - Individual above, I phoned the Cardiff number (0044 135 535 9022)  - got an immediate answer from a human being and after briefly explaining the situation, got put on to a Technical Advisor.

She was categoric: Mrs G's occupational pension (local authority) would attract little or no UK tax because it has been at or below the basic personal allowance. When her State Pension began several years ago, her UK tax increased significantly.

"Fill in the form" said the TA "and you'll get a revised coding + a refund". [:D]  BTW, I'm fully aware that it takes ages to come through, but what the hell.

I should add that I've always declared both of our earnings in full to the Impots, so it hasn't been a case of not paying over here. My only concern is that I may face a revised & retrospective liability over here, but I haven't been able to get my mind around that one yet.

   

 

[NormanH]

 As well as providing that useful link tinabee also helped with the spreadsheet to help calculate your tax liability in France.

Thanks tinabee [B]

I have since updated it for 2012

If you have always declared everything over here I don't think you need worry about anything in the past, though the new method does bring a slightly higher tax in ther future as explained elsewhere by parsnips

[tinabee]

Another form to fill in for the UK tax authorities is the P161

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pensioners/approaching-why.htm

This is to allow HMRC to calculate whether you are entitled to an additional "age related" allowance against UK tax. Details here:

http://www.which.co.uk/money/tax/guides/tax-and-allowances-for-older-people/age-related-tax-allowances/

Once you have completed this form, they will completely ignore everything you put on it and send you a basic allowance tax code and invite you to contact them to tell them it is wrong - [:@]

I will let you all know the outcome of attempting to recitfy said error as the saga unfolds.

 

[tinabee]

[quote user="tinabee"]

Another form to fill in for the UK tax authorities is the P161

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pensioners/approaching-why.htm

This is to allow HMRC to calculate whether you are entitled to an additional "age related" allowance against UK tax. Details here:

http://www.which.co.uk/money/tax/guides/tax-and-allowances-for-older-people/age-related-tax-allowances/

Once you have completed this form, they will completely ignore everything you put on it and send you a basic allowance tax code and invite you to contact them to tell them it is wrong - [:@]

I will let you all know the outcome of attempting to recitfy said error as the saga unfolds.

 

[/quote]

Update:  rang the tax office this morning on +44 135 535 9022 and after much discussion they agreed that they had provided an incorrect tax code and they will amend the code to include the appropriate age-related allowance.

[NormanH]

Fore-warned is fore armed. I have filled in the P161 and sent it off. I will also send off the other form you gave a link to, and watch for my tax code. If it is wrong, telephone time, even though I have  almost a phobia about that.

Thanks again for these links

[tinabee]

If anyone wants to check whether they are receiving the correct age related allowance, I have created a small spreadsheet to help.

NOTE this is just for people who are between 65 and 74, who are in receipt of a UK state pension AND have UK taxable income, e.g. a Government service pension.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am2vUo1_NQtkdHVVY1J3bjZPMG9BZ0hVMFJsOW0yd3c

The situation of someone who starts to receive their state pension this year is as follows:

Initially the tax code will go DOWN (even with the addition of age related allowance) since the state pension is using up some of the personal allowance.

Once the France Individual form is processed and state pension is not assessed for tax in the UK, then the age related allowance will apply in full (if applicable)

The spreadsheet shows the 2 different tax codes that could result.

NB I am not an expert and cannot guarantee that these calculations are correct in all cases, but they have worked in our case.

Hope this makes sense to those people in this situation

[NormanH]

THANKS tina..

[B][B][B]

I am starting to cogitate about a joint spreadsheet that could show

Tax code in the UK

Tax payable in the UK

Tax payable in France...

Will have a tweak and see what I can do ...

[Gardian]

[quote user="Gardian"]

Sackcloth and ashes time for me!  I'm very sorry for my previous post which was wrong: in my defence, it was always my understanding of the situation and the Impots over here had confirmed that.

As a result of the link to the Form France - Individual above, I phoned the Cardiff number (0044 135 535 9022)  - got an immediate answer from a human being and after briefly explaining the situation, got put on to a Technical Advisor.

She was categoric: Mrs G's occupational pension (local authority) would attract little or no UK tax because it has been at or below the basic personal allowance. When her State Pension began several years ago, her UK tax increased significantly.

"Fill in the form" said the TA "and you'll get a revised coding + a refund". [:D]  BTW, I'm fully aware that it takes ages to come through, but what the hell.

I should add that I've always declared both of our earnings in full to the Impots, so it hasn't been a case of not paying over here. My only concern is that I may face a revised & retrospective liability over here, but I haven't been able to get my mind around that one yet.

   [/quote]

An update.

I completed the France Individual form and went in to our local tax office over here on 1st November: the Inspector had never seen one before, but said that he'd send it off to Paris as requested.

Ten minutes ago, I phoned HMRC just to try and find out whether the form had arrived with them: I had no expectation of anybody being able to tell me anything.

The call was again answered almost immediately and the lady was able to tell me that the form was received on 7th Dec and that the repayment had just been calculated and would be processed within 14 days. [:D]

Two things: (1) HMRC don't deserve all the flak that they often get & (2) thanks to all for the input on this thread (particularly Tinabee & Norman) for a nice start to 2012.

[NormanH]

I am resurrecting the thread because despite the facts as outlined here, my tax office has categorically refused to send off the France Individual Form.

I completed it in November as you did, sent it off by email twice that month, and repeatedly in January and February with no reply.

I then sent it by 'lettre recommandée' in March and got an irate answer saying that it should not have been sent to them and nothing could be done until I have filled in my declaration for 2011 and got my 'Avis'

I know that this is wrong, since I am not asking for a statement of how much French tax I have paid, just an attestation of the basic fact that my OAP is taxable in France, but the particular woman on the phone was one of those harridans who refuse to listen and was irritated by the fact that I had sent a letter with the details of the repeated requests.

I suppose I will either have to go in or ask to see the Médiateur, but it is wearing with all the other things that are going on

[Gardian]

Norman ...............

Really sorry to hear that. You know the solution full well, which you've mentioned above: face-to-face contact.

We were lucky: the Tax Inspector signed the form in front of me and said that he'd send it off straightaway. His only interest was to correctly check that we were imposable in France.

If it's any help, once that form leaves your Tax Office, the turnround is lightning - well, lightning in tax-people's terms.  Our document left France early Nov 2011 and Mrs G got her notification from HMRC in mid Jan and refund within a couple of weeks. If you take Christmas in to account, that was about an 8 week turnround.  BTW, Cardiff HMRC were able to tell me on the phone in early Jan that they'd received the document and that it had been processed - on the ball.

Come up here and see our local friendly Impots bloke - they're nicer in the Gard!![;-)]

[parsnips]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Rabbie"]I have had discussions with HMRC about this. The OAP is part of your UK taxable income but is paid gross by the DWP who do not want the hassle of deducting tax in some cases but not in others. In practice the OAP uses up a largish part of your tax-free allowance.[/quote]

But if it isn't taxable in the UK how can it use up any of your allowance?

[/quote]

Hi,

     The state pension is taxable income in the UK (for UK residents), but is paid gross because it is less than the personal allowance , so someone with no other income would not have tax to pay.  Where the recipient has other income -private and govt. pensions, wages, rents etc, which together with the state pension brings the total income into the taxable range, the state pension is still paid gross (as someone has said -for the convenience of the DWP) and the tax due on the aggregate income is collected by adjusting the tax codes applied to the other income.

      Problems arise when the recipient of the income becomes french resident, and in the case of people with UK taxable income such as govt. pensions and UK rents, the adjusted coding continues to be applied although the UK state pension is then exempt in the UK by Double Tax treaty.