tea4two Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hello Everyone, my first post. Any ideas tips would be great please.My Wife and I have for the past 8 years spent 6 months here holidaying and 6 months in England working. It has been great but in the last 3 years I have been ill and not able to work, I was hoping to get better and back to work but it's not going to happen. I'm 43. We would like to continue doing this in a sustainable way and am thinking about the following.We have a house here we plan to rent for 3-4 months of the summer, we will live in our caravan in the forrest/garden. We have a House in england we can rent for holidays whilst were here. our joint income from both after expenses would be about £8,000 pa. we can live on this ok were not extravagent. We have about £70,000 of savings left, I have been living off our savings whilst ill.I,m wondering Would we pay habitation tax as our income is low? I believe we would not pay income tax as we are below the threshold? social charges or have to register as a business when renting the house? Currently we live in Uk and holiday in France but we could turn it around if it would make things more viable. Any tips or ideas would be much appreciated. I have read lots of posts. Thank you very much for any help. regards Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebaynut Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hello Tony,The one big question, What will you do for healthcare if you move to France?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aly Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 You probably would not pay Habitation but you would still pay Fonciere I think. You need to also think abt Health cover in France. Also you need to register your gite with your mairie and get it graded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroTrash Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Living on a shoestring in France is harder than living on a shoestring in the UK (speaking as one who has done both). It sounds as if you may not have a full NI contributions record in the recent past, and that being the case if neither of you is retirement age you would not be entitled to health cover in France under an S1 issued by the UK. Which, if you are 'inactif', will mean you have to take out full private health insurance (obligatory, not optional) and that would eat into your £8000pa big time. Alternatively you could register as a business, pay cotisations equating to up to a quarter of your income, and qualify for healthcare that way, though if you don't have good health a topup policy would be a good idea. You probably wouldn't pay income tax but at one stage or another, depending on what business regime you go under, there will probably be business taxes to pay. If you are resident and on a low income you will probably get a reduction on taxe d'habitation. However, if you plan to live long term in a caravan, you should really get permission for that - technically you can't just stick a caravan wherever you like and start living in it, even it it's in your own garden - and you might find that you get a taxe d'habitation bill for the caravan as well. Check it out first to avoid issues in the future, and buy the maire a drink - sometime communes are relaxed about these things and sometimes they have sharp teeth and bite.Another thing to consider is that depending on where you are 'resident', that is the country in which you declare your worldwide income, so if you are in France there could be social charges on investment income etc.You need to look into it carefully but my gut feeling is that you would be better off in the UK where you get 'free' healthcare and presumably nothing to pay to the government in the way of taxes. As far as I can see, the main financial advantage of living in France could be the reduction in taxe d'habitation, and unless your bill is very high your social charges and medical costs would likely wipe that out in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 You have heard some wise words. Much to take into consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommier Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Have you claimed Incapacity Benefit (or whatever it's now called) in the UK? If you are entitled to that it'd make your situation much easier and stop you needing to spend your savings. £8000 a year isn't a lot to live on, and that's assuming you can get holiday tenants for both your French and UK homes. You'd still have Council Tax to pay in the UK as well as TF and some TdH in France, plus utilities in both countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-D de Rouffignac Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I cannot add much to the excellent information and advice so far given, but if I read your story correctly, the only thing I can suggest is Can you not try to do in England what you are proposing to do in France - i.e. continue to rent out the French property, but live in a caravan in UK while simultaneously renting out the British property? ( I am assuming both are summer/holiday rentals). As has been pointed out there seem to be more problems on the French side (healthcare, taxation etc) than there would be, as I see it, in the UK. As you won't be on site for the French rentals you would need to find a reliable care-taking/changeover service but that's not impossible to arrange. Hope this adds a bit more food for thought. Bon courage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 So far I have no idea why you would want to live in France, which would be more expensive and a much more difficult solution.Why not just sell here even at a loss, and if you can, and continue to benefit from the country into which you have paid something, instead of coming somewhere which owes you nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I dont see that you have anything to lose by giving it a try, I live on a very limited income from UK property rental, much less than you are talking about and in my case it is a lot cheaper for me to live in France, I think perhaps once you have a moderate income there is little difference and if you have lot of disposable income and like to dispose of it then France may well be more expensive.Did I read that you would be returning for a few months or few occasions each year? Healthcare via the EHIC might be a no cost option for you with the choice of treatment in either country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 What is it that you find a lot cheaper Chancer? I am not challenging you, and I can't compare myself as I haven't lived in the UK for so long, but I have the impression that the basics such as simple food and clothing are if anything cheaper over there, so if there is no rent to pay where does the difference come from? Just interested really.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroTrash Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Be officially resident in France and get no cost healthcare, dream on - or am I missing a trick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Not necessarily in order and may not apply to others dependant on their situation.Taxes fonçieres + habitation for a large hotel on 3 floors + cellar and outbuildings less than I pay in council tax for a converted shed in the UK, its the minimum and would be applied even to a caravan used for habitation.Motoring expenses, basic insurance including European breakdown cover about half the minimum cost in the UK. The cost of the carte grise similar to road tax in the UK but I paid it once and wont pay again for at least 10 years, CT/MOT similar prices but every 2 years in France.Basically my fixed motoring costs just to keep a car on the road are a lot lower, when I drive the diesel is I think about 20% cheaper here, servicing and repair costs would be much higher but i do all that with parts bought in the UK so the same cost barring unexpected breakdowns, none to date.Electricity I think for me is cheaper given the cost of the abonnement but not a huge amount in it, however what I dont get is the sudden and repeated hiking of the costs like British Gas announced today, water I think slightly cheaper.Healthcare, well its free in the UK so it will cost me more here as I dont have a mutuelle but to date has not amounted to a huge amount despite several hospitalisations and operations, I could be treated in the UK should I decide to and once was but that was not through choice rather than it being an emergency and the danger of travelling back to France in that condition, once I was discharged from hospital I hot footed it back to the after care of the French hospital. My dentist actually costs me less for basic treatments after the remboursement although for something like a crown if pain permitted it would be cheaper in the UK.There are some areas of healthcare that you do have to pay for in the UK, vaccinations and medicaments for foreign travel which are remboursable here, I have full blood tests and bilan hepatique each year, I would have to pay private in the UK and boy those clinics know how to charge!Food, thats a interesting topic, there is no question that the cheapest way to eat in the UK is junk and prepared food, way cheaper than in France but now my diet is fresh fruit, vegetables, fish, meat etc basically no preprocessed foods I believe that overall its cheaper to buy in France and I do shop regularly in the same stores (Lidl and Aldi) in both countries but the offering is not the same.I dont drink or smoke but alcohol bought from the supermarket is far cheaper and I believe that cigarretes are too.My sports and gym classes are a lot less than the closest equivalent (a health club membership) would be in the UK, 3 evenings a week of stretching, musculature and abdo fessiers is €80 per year, membership of a diving club with free entry to the piscine 2 times per week and the diving fosse once per week is €120 and both of those include the compulsory insurance and licenses from the FFESSM or FFEPMM.Now without a doubt loads of things do cost a hell of a lot more here especially once you start paying others to do them for you, I am lucky in that I (can still) do everything myself and having a foot in both camps I can usually choose the cheaper country.To sum up I am lucky with my situation in being able choose whichever is the lower cost option, I have been racking my brains and I cant think of anything that I have no choice but to fork out for here which costs me more than it would in the UK.It does mean though that at times I buy heavy and voluminous materials in one country for use in the other contrary to all common sense, over a hundred sheets of fire rated plasterboard have come from the UK, 3 tonnes in weight but which represents a saving of over €2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Thanks for all that.It comes down to individual lifestyles of course.My local taxes are much higher than yours and I don't have a car, two major differences between usI also have a Mutuelle which costs 110E a month.The other difference is that I eat out a great deal. It is a choice and gives me the chance to meet and talk to all sorts of people rather then staying cooped up all day.I still think that the sort of meal I can get for 12.50 which is the price of the daily menu is good value.Today I had fresh anchovies with roasted red peppers, coq au vin with haricots verts and real mashed potatoes with olives in it and a fresh fruit salad. Obviously I can get by with a light snack in the evening, so although I spend a lot on this I think it one area I would struggle with in the UK.Of course if I went back to the UK I would have to try to rent as I haven't got enough to buy even a shed in the UK, and I think that is where the basic perception of comparative costs comes from . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 In the north of England, I can buy lots of food fairly cheaply, and good fresh fruit and veg. I shop around, I always have. I have NEVER EVER bought junk, or poor quality food, I make just about everything we eat, and always have. We can also eat out for reasonable prices. And our local chinese is excellent, £7.50 for a lovely meal, if you order before 7pm. And really not that much more later in the evening. The earlier time more suited to my ageing digestion![Www]We had few decent restos where I lived in France, and my son tells me that one of the rare good ones is now rubbish!Going out for a pint is very cheap in comparison to where we lived in France.Our local gym is quite cheap too and very well equipped. I would say that in general we pay less in the UK for much of our everyday things, but there again, I left an expensive part of France, for a poor part of the UK. UK income tax is more, but I knew that before we moved back. Just for the health care and the limits as to when people are supposed to be out of the UK before retired, I would be very careful with all this. When people are under state retirement age then the limit is 3 months per year, over retirement age and it is 6 months per year. And the authorities are aware of health tourism and there is certainly someone at my local hospital who is claiming medical costs from non residents, including those suspected of cheating, getting the proof and getting them to pay. Still hard to compare, because I don't live with anyone on here and they don't live with me. Also a couples needs may be different too, and for the ladies getting that red hair dye after a certain age, maybe something that should be taken into account. And I have to say that I don't think that women's clothes are ever as costaud as men's clothes in either country. Tights gets holes in them quickly, well mine do and sometimes just as I am putting them on. Jumpers go far bobblier than mens and in quick time. In fact it isn't cheap to be a well turned out lady and I'm not on about being done up to the nines to go out...... which is even more expensive. Says she who is sat here in her scruffs as no one is coming round and I'm not going out today![:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyF Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 No-one has been able to put in a new claim for Incapacity Benefit since January 2011. The new benefit is called Employment and Support Allowance and appears to be very much geared to getting people into employment wherever possible. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/Illorinjured/DG_171894The other point that occurred to me is that if the original poster is now chronically ill, fully comprehensive private healthcare, which is essential if they are to comply with French residence requirements, could prove to be prohibitively expensive, if not unattainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aly Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 [quote user="Chancer"]Not necessarily in order and may not apply to others dependant on their situation.Taxes fonçieres + habitation for a large hotel on 3 floors + cellar and outbuildings less than I pay in council tax for a converted shed in the UK, its the minimum and would be applied even to a caravan used for habitation.Motoring expenses, basic insurance including European breakdown cover about half the minimum cost in the UK. The cost of the carte grise similar to road tax in the UK but I paid it once and wont pay again for at least 10 years, CT/MOT similar prices but every 2 years in France.Basically my fixed motoring costs just to keep a car on the road are a lot lower, when I drive the diesel is I think about 20% cheaper here, servicing and repair costs would be much higher but i do all that with parts bought in the UK so the same cost barring unexpected breakdowns, none to date.Electricity I think for me is cheaper given the cost of the abonnement but not a huge amount in it, however what I dont get is the sudden and repeated hiking of the costs like British Gas announced today, water I think slightly cheaper.Healthcare, well its free in the UK so it will cost me more here as I dont have a mutuelle but to date has not amounted to a huge amount despite several hospitalisations and operations, I could be treated in the UK should I decide to and once was but that was not through choice rather than it being an emergency and the danger of travelling back to France in that condition, once I was discharged from hospital I hot footed it back to the after care of the French hospital. My dentist actually costs me less for basic treatments after the remboursement although for something like a crown if pain permitted it would be cheaper in the UK.There are some areas of healthcare that you do have to pay for in the UK, vaccinations and medicaments for foreign travel which are remboursable here, I have full blood tests and bilan hepatique each year, I would have to pay private in the UK and boy those clinics know how to charge!Food, thats a interesting topic, there is no question that the cheapest way to eat in the UK is junk and prepared food, way cheaper than in France but now my diet is fresh fruit, vegetables, fish, meat etc basically no preprocessed foods I believe that overall its cheaper to buy in France and I do shop regularly in the same stores (Lidl and Aldi) in both countries but the offering is not the same.I dont drink or smoke but alcohol bought from the supermarket is far cheaper and I believe that cigarretes are too.My sports and gym classes are a lot less than the closest equivalent (a health club membership) would be in the UK, 3 evenings a week of stretching, musculature and abdo fessiers is €80 per year, membership of a diving club with free entry to the piscine 2 times per week and the diving fosse once per week is €120 and both of those include the compulsory insurance and licenses from the FFESSM or FFEPMM.Now without a doubt loads of things do cost a hell of a lot more here especially once you start paying others to do them for you, I am lucky in that I (can still) do everything myself and having a foot in both camps I can usually choose the cheaper country.To sum up I am lucky with my situation in being able choose whichever is the lower cost option, I have been racking my brains and I cant think of anything that I have no choice but to fork out for here which costs me more than it would in the UK.It does mean though that at times I buy heavy and voluminous materials in one country for use in the other contrary to all common sense, over a hundred sheets of fire rated plasterboard have come from the UK, 3 tonnes in weight but which represents a saving of over €2000[/quote]Not sure where Chancer lives but my hab and Fonciere is just short of 4k so comparable to the UK. These thigs are worked out according to rent values of given areas so they vary as they do in the UKI think many things are abt prefeences and lifestyle. In London where I lived, fruit and veg is cheaper especially in the markets and of better quality then where I live in France. Steering away from stereotypes but a lot of French people eat junk too. Mcdonalds second biggest market is France.I think the comments abt Healthcare are spot on. You cannot rely on a EHC for long term cover.My advise spend 6 months and a few days in the UK to keep residency etc and the rest in France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 But Aly, the six months is only the correct amount of time for state pension age people and not early retirees, which is only 3 months. I do know that all this is debateable, but I really did speak with the person at our local major hospital who is responsible for getting the money from people who are non residents. And I feel sure that the government is going to be addressing this very soon, as they should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprogster Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I agree with Aly in that fresh fruit & veg is very disappointing in France compared to the much better choice in GB.My car insurance in France is much more expensive, as the insurance market in France is not as competitive as the UK and because car part costs in France are astronomical.Anyone who thinks property taxes in France are cheap should come to the south of France! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote user="NormanH"]What is it that you find a lot cheaper Chancer? [/quote]One of our major expenses in the UK was council tax. It was just short of £2000 per year and no discount because of low income (when that happened upon us) was available because we owned property in France, which was classed as money in the bank. We live in that French property now and the tax fonciere is €660 per year (gone up by 50% since 2005) and the tax d'habitation is about the same. The big difference is that based upon our tax return and the number in our household we don't pay tax d'habitation despite still having property in the UK (which is let so that we don't have to pay that blooming awful council tax bill!). I have noticed that our electricity bill is horrendous now compared to when we first moved over here (€105 per month as opposed to €50 max) but I don't know if that's because the prices have gone up or because we now have lots of freezers and laptops using more electricity than we did before.......Re the whole fresh veg question - the only reason people say they live more healthily in France is because they grow their own, because they can, easily. It must be true because in our area, even in the best shops, we never see much other than wilted veg. Even if we chance across something that looks good, it looks wilted by the next day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 [quote user="idun"]I would say that in general we pay less in the UK for much of our everyday things, but there again, I left an expensive part of France, for a poor part of the UK. [/quote]I disagree. I believe you simply moved to a part of the UK where silly prices for everyday things wouldn't be tolerated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I buy fresh fruit and veg at the market, or sometimes in one of the North African shops. It is nothing like the stuff you find in supermarkets.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I didnt make any comment about the French consumption of junk food other than that I no longer eat it, I certainly see loads of families in Lidl where looking at their trolleys one can see their priorities are booze, fizzy drinks, bottled water, cakes and snacks, dog food if you are lucky you might see a piece of fruit or veg, these are the families, the soaks that go in to reapprovision at 18.30 get by on extra strong lager and pain de mie!The point I was trying to make is that there is a plethora and abundace of very cheap processed and junk food in the UK supermarkets not forgetting all the cheap (by comparison) takeaways that is far in excess of that in France, what is available is often very expensive with the exception of Fricandelles.I live on pretty much a survival budget, in the UK I would be forced (against my will) to eat junk and processed food, in France I am forced (and its a pleasure) to eat well.Looking at all the discussions about what English foods people bring over to France, buy on line from tesco Asda and have shipped over, the sort of stuff that is stocked and asked for on the "English shelves" it is always the high sugar, high salt processed foods, if you cannot live without these, and I speak from experience, then the food bill will be significantly higher in France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Why would you Chancer? There is never any need to eat rubbish food. I no longer look in other people's trolleys, not bothered what they have, I know what we eat. And sometimes I like rubbish, but I am aware that I am eating it and it isn't part of my normal diet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tea4two Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Hi Everyone, Big Thank you to everyone who has offered advice and comented, very much appreciated. I have read through and will read again, several times, very informative, thank you all. I'm not to good at the moment so it might take me a few days to get back. Brilliant forum and great mix of perspectives.. back soon. thank you. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I have just reread your first post t42. Look at the service-public.fr web site, it states that you should always have been playing to french rules after three months residence, never mind the implications of the UK health system too.Now your health is an big issue, you need to be very very careful as to what you do and where and when and I would say, do it all properly now, as as far as I can tell you haven't been so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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