British in France

[racey]

Anyone hear of any anti-British meetings in Carhaix and Belle-isle-en-terre this last weekend?

[Scarlett]

Do you mean the sad bunch complaining that the brits have bought up all the tumble down houses with trees growing through the rooves that have been on the market for 250 years?  I laughed out loud when I saw them - most of them would faint with fright at the idea of wielding a paintbrush, let alone a spade and saw!

Do me a favour ... !

[Val_2]

Have a look at the AI site. Meeting planned at Bourbriac/Plouaret for this weekend apparently by a lot of hot air windbags.

[Teamedup]

There may be windbags prepared to demonstrate, but this is bad. Because I actually believe that that is the tip of an iceberg if it is to happen.

[Val_2]

Yes you are right. I think the previous reply made me a little complacent with my reply although it is a very small minority of people behind it currently. This isn't the first time there has been "bad feelings" here in certain spots especially the middle of Brittany and I can certainly understand why they are fed up.There was anti-british grafitti back in 89 when we used to drive along the N12 near Guingamp but a lot of that was to do with Ireland. You see no end of holiday homes shut up for all but 48 weeks of the year when they could be put to better use and I know for a fact that the local bretons don't like this. The attitude of some of the foreign buyers is upsetting too and a lot think that everyone should speak english for their benefit and I have seen some very condescending brits in the hypermarkets taking the p**s out of the locals which is upsetting too. Estate agents here are getting very greedy with quite often,two sets of prices,the higher of which to charge the british buyers with and the lower for local purchasers and the number of agencies that have opened up in the past couple of years is incredible, two agencies alone in a nearby village with larger towns either side and plenty there.You can read the article on the AI site both in french,breton and english and yes, I am very worried about my kids' futures where property is concerned here. I wouldn't be surprised to find that in a year or so, there will be a clampdown by the french government on foreigners buying second homes here and new criteria will have to be met. We were discussing this latest anti-brit feeling at work this afternoon and my boss who is Belgian said that one of her husband's relatives here was horrified to find she had an english person working for her so attitudes are beginning to change for the worse I fear.

[Miki]

Bourbriac is a fair way off from us but let's just get one thing right here.

If this demonstration and its reasoning does take off, then it will be all Brits and all foreigners in France that will feel the brunt.

I believe that we live among a real friendly commune and did so before as well. We made an effort, a pretty casual effort to be honest and let things happen gradually as far as friendships were concerned. Now we can talk to most of the commune, those that don't speak, our neighbours say are "not very nice people" so it is not us alone.

This I think is the key to living in France, get on with people, do not simply come here and mix solely with the English speaking people which is the biggest temptation of all and of course understandable for the most part but it is partly this that can get up the French nose. The Brits tend to buy in clumps, just put that happening in to your old place in the UK and see how one might feel about being one of  just a handfull of fellow countrymen among an influx of 10 families from Germany or wherever and the house prices rising due to this.

I also think that some kind of ruling is not unlikely but not in the foreseeable futue. Regardless of what is said, the country is still pretty full of old houses waiting for that loving care by the foreigners to renovate and they are still lowish in price but as ever, the French do not see them as a going concern. I don't think the authorities will want the selling stopped, until at least all the wrecks are restored

So I guess it is going to come down to seeing sense for many, the French do not ever say, here buy my house at a sensible price because we want to see house prices drop for our kids. Oh no, they are very much part of the problem of rising prices, market forces dominate as ever and the French will want as much as they can get.

So I suggest that the demonstrators seek out those French that have sold at a suggested inflated price and accuse them of being as much the problem as the foreigners that for a fair percentage, are improving their landscape by ridding the place of tumble down wrecks !

Failing that, should we just all upsticks, sell cheaply (good for the spirit !) and go back whence we came to appease these demonstrators ?

 

[Scarlett]

Foreigners buying property in clumps? Wake up and smell the roses, that has been happening in Britain for years. This lot don't know they're born, and I'm not trying to be rude or condescending, it's a fact.

What I find hard to understand is that on the one hand you have an extremely small bunch of militant whingers moaning about their incapacity to find housing (although one can still fairly easily find cheap property) and on the other the communes complaining that due to the lack of people in rural areas, post offices are closing, schools are losing classes ... so many of these properties bought by foreigners were and are on the point of collapsing into a pile of old rubble - why didn't these young people buy these ten, even five years ago, when property prices were dirt cheap?

I think jealousy has a great deal to do with it, tinged with a little ugly racism. Most people here, as elsewhere are happily above such sentiments. What state would some of these rural communes be in without foreign buyers? I work and pay taxes here, my children are growing up here, one day they will probably marry a local girl or boy, and their children will be perfectly integrated. I cannot see the problem.

[Teamedup]

It would be nice to think that reason will prevail if these demonstrations prolifierate, but I really don't suppose that the french will  blame the french for this though will they. It will be the evil foreigners leading these vendors astray, corrupting them with their willingness to pay stupid prices for places that everyone knew were only worth XYZ. Isn't it always the case.

[Miki]

 Foreigners buying property in clumps? Wake up and smell the roses, that has been happening in Britain for years. This lot don't know they're born, and I'm not trying to be rude or condescending, it's a fact.

Not condescending, not much,  you say wake up and smell the roses,  I smell roses and all kinds of things, so please don't quote stupid clichés at me.  We were talking about France not the UK.

The rest you state is quite obvious but you still can't blame some of the people for getting a little stroppy. There is plenty of whingeing in the UK about immigrants so why does it come as a shock and get Brits annoyed when some (even a tiny minority) of the French get some of the same attitude ?

 I work and pay taxes here, my children are growing up here, one day they will probably marry a local girl or boy, and their children will be perfectly integrated. I cannot see the problem.

Nice thought perhaps but don't bank on it, statistics are definitely not on your side and if you see no problem then there probably isn't one, so......

TU, absolutely right, the French will only ever see it as a problem that us evil foreigners have forced upon them !

[Russethouse]

Whats the thread called on AI ?

[Alexis]

I have mentioned before that the folk that I work with started moaning about all the British buyers about 12-18 months ago. 

When I first arrived here, the average house loan was for seven years.  Now, if they can find a house to buy, it is for 25.

Normal for us but shocking for the French.

Although prices may seem 'cheap' to us, they have certainly increased rapidly.  Wages haven't.  People left the countryside to try to find work in the first place which left areas empty.  It is well known that for many years thousands of Bretons went to Paris to work.

With the 'contract' system for work, many people didn't buy a house because they were not sure of staying in the area.  They don't like driving far to work!

They wouldn't have got a loan anyway if they didn't have a CDI.

[Will]

I'm sure several French people blame the British for increased house prices, but then when I lived in England I knew people who blamed West Indian immigrants for the bad weather (yes, really).

The official view is different. This is from yesterday's La Manche Libre in an interview with the regional director of INSEE about immigration in Basse-Normandie. The question was specifically about the 'forte representation des Anglais' in the broader immigation picture.

"On leur reproche de faire flamber les prix de l'immobilier ces deux dernières années, mais je constate que cette flambée a eu lieu partout en France. Avec ou sans la presence des Anglais. Et si on regarde les aspects positifs, on remarque que les Anglais, comme les Parisiens dans les années soixante ou 70, ont tendance à maintenir un habitat existant en le renovant et en occupant tel ou tel territoire rural qui avait tendance à se désertifier".

I'm not entirely sure that I like being regarded in the same way as the hated Parisians but it sounds pretty positive on the whole to me.

[Miki]

"On leur reproche de faire flamber les prix de l'immobilier ces deux dernières années, mais je constate que cette flambée a eu lieu partout en France. Avec ou sans la presence des Anglais. Et si on regarde les aspects positifs, on remarque que les Anglais, comme les Parisiens dans les années soixante ou 70, ont tendance à maintenir un habitat existant en le renovant et en occupant tel ou tel territoire rural qui avait tendance à se désertifier".

Very true of course Will and just as in the UK, some sections will still ignore what they are told about immigrants. Last night in reply to a question, Dianne Abbot said a true statement, she said that her parents were enticed to the UK from the West Indies to prop up the UK Hospitals and without them and many others, it is now recognised that the NHS would probably have collapsed. Add that to the transport system and you will see how bringing in immigrants can often aid a country.

The UK is desperately short of trained Doctors and other vital and menial jobs so we bring in immigrants (to the demise of the country they entice them from) and then they get blamed for just about every fault that exists in Britain. So I say again, is it not normal for a section of the French to wave away what might appear to us to be creditable, in that some have settled and restored properties they didn't want ? 

Whereas they see it as purely exploitation, some of us having more money than they have and are able to afford what they cannot. And again, if that happened back in your old area in the UK, wouldn't some of your neighbours be thinking along the same lines for their kids ? It is happening now in the UK of course but the boom in property prices was fuelled somewhat by pure greed.

 

[Teamedup]

ont tendance à maintenir un habitat existant en le renovant et en occupant tel ou tel territoire rural qui avait tendance à se désertifier".

 

And that is it too, only in some places it isn't a 'tendance'.  People have been leaving vast parts of rural France because there is no work. So coming here and expecting say to find work, nul part en plein campagne can be very difficult indeed. The indiginous population wouldn't often be leaving if there was work. And those jobs that remain, well, what with property prices being pushed up and brits expecting jobs, it must harbour discontent within certain parts of french society. And no matter what a newspaper article says, these people could stir things up.

All very worrying.

[Russethouse]

I spoke to Breton about this before Christmas, his view was that people retiring to Brittany were not of much 'consequence' as their stay was likely to be 'short term' 10 - 15 years, and younger families were welcomed because they add to the economy, integrate, help with keeping schools open etc.

I think he may have rather underestimated the longevity of British retirees, although he is of retirement age he has decided to stay in the UK. (He does have lots of family back in Brittany though)

[Mysfloss]

here's a related link www.agencebretagnepresse.com/fetch.php?id=1735 makes interesting reading

[Scarlett]

Miki

 

I can remember when rural mayors were virtually tearing their hair out, being left in charge of ghost towns with a few diehard oldies in residence !

 

Yes, I do feel extremely aggrieved when my husband has half killed himself renovating a pile of old stones that was on the market for 10 years into the beautiful home we have at present. Where were all the whingers then? My children are very happy here, have spent more than half their lives here, and we are part of the community.  Some of these rabble rousers are racist, unpleasant people, most of whom couldn’t have bought a house at yesterday’s prices (and before you accuse me of prejudice I do know some of them personally).

 

I remain convinced that jealousy is the main sentiment at work here, and I am equally convinced that most bretons, who are among the most tolerant, friendly folk on earth, view these people with amused disdain.

By the way, you wrote with regard to my children’s futures “Nice thought perhaps but don't bank on it, statistics are definitely not on your side and if you see no problem then there probably isn't one, so......”

Not shy of being condescending yourself, are you?  If you have knowledge I am not privy to, please feel free to share ....

For my part, I remain an eternal optimist.

[Pangur]

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/20/ndale20.xml

http://money.guardian.co.uk/property/story/0,14422,1394614,00.html

Sounds similar to what people in national parks in the UK are feeling.  I think there is an enormous difference between those foreigners who come to live in the area and contribute to the local economy: I can see why locals get aggrieved if there are lots of empty houses.  The increasing trend for people to invest in housing rather than trusting in pensions means an ever increasing number of maison secondaires, whether it be in the UK, Ireland or France or whereever, which does push up the prices and means that first time buyers and those on low wages cannot afford to buy and must pay the mortgages of those who were fortunate enough to get on not one but two property ladders!

Here in 74, the ire is aimed mainly at the Swiss, from what I can see, as a bilateral treaty has made it easier for them to buy in France, and with Swiss wages financing the mortgages, house prices have gone up quite a bit in the last while.

 

 

[Alexis]

The Maire might have been tearing his hair out a few years ago because there was only a few elderly people in his commune but what is so different now when the same houses are owned by say, Parisiens, British, Dutch and they only visit for a month a year?

At least before they would go for their bread every day or use the post office.  Nowadays the boulangerie is shut and the poste too.

As for jealousy, I wouldn't have thought so.  Around here the Breton's don't seem materialistic at all.

[Patf]

In our commune of 60+ families only three are British. There were two old farms empty for ages and both have been bought by French people. They are doing the renovations themselves. Pat.

[Miki]

 I can remember when rural mayors were virtually tearing their hair out, being left in charge of ghost towns with a few diehard oldies in residence !

 

Well I am not so sure about that, the Bretons have been leaving Brittany for a good many years and goes back a fair while. I have pictures showing extremely poor, starving and ravaged locals entering Paris in the early 1900's in their search for work. This is no new phenomenon, some of this goes way back to the 19th Century. If you ever get the time and you are in Paris, take a stroll around Montparnasse for the Breton influences from the many sad times the Bretons have been through.

 

Yes, I do feel extremely aggrieved when my husband has half killed himself renovating a pile of old stones that was on the market for 10 years into the beautiful home we have at present. Where were all the whingers then?

 

But why should they whinge when you are doing it up, you are taking it personal and are seeing it solely from your point of view. If you wish, as you say, to be integrated, then that must mean trying to understand even the minority point of view. Ten years ago, what is occurring now wasn't half as obvious or as serious to them as it is right now but in 1989 parts of Brittany had grafiti daubed around, telling the same kind of story.

 

 

My children are very happy here, have spent more than half their lives here, and we are part of the community.  Some of these rabble rousers are racist, unpleasant people, most of whom couldn’t have bought a house at yesterday’s prices (and before you accuse me of prejudice I do know some of them personally).

 

You may not like them and nor might I but to simply put them all down as how you state does not make me think you are seeing things through anyones eyes but your own. The art is surely to see their side of things then agree or disagree with reasonable debate not to try and belittle them as scabs and nothing else. 

 

I remain convinced that jealousy is the main sentiment at work here, and I am equally convinced that most bretons, who are among the most tolerant, friendly folk on earth, view these people with amused disdain.

 

Isn't jealousy the root of most things, I am sure you and I are sometimes guilty of that on occasion and I guess so are they to a point but I do not see these protestors as being just jealous to be honest, perhaps more frightened, rightly or wrongly for their future and the future of their children, the Bretons have had many a raw deal over the years and this, some may feel, is yet another thing to make them fear for their houses and work.

 

Not shy of being condescending yourself, are you?  If you have knowledge I am not privy to, please feel free to share ....

 

Many people are in agreement that 1-3 years is the more common length of stay for Brits and after that around 6- 7 years, after that it is pretty rare to find people with children that have spent 10 years in France as a family. I know of a few on here and a few other families, that's all.

 

[Scarlett]

Miki,

Thank you for your comments, I think they're fair enough.

Best wishes

Scarlett

[Teamedup]

There are lots of bretons and come to think normans too, down in this real South Eastern corner of France( as opposed to Perpignan which to me is SW). They ended up in the Alps for work.

[Miki]

[quote]Miki, Thank you for your comments, I think they're fair enough. Best wishes Scarlett[/quote]

Thanks Scarlett and again the best of luck.

TU.

The history of the Bretons and their often torrid lives is heart wrenching. Until we moved up here, I must admit I mostly looked at the history and culture of the other regions (where they too often had hard lives as well) that we have lived in France and only lightly touched the rest of France. Bretons are spread far and wide but the uncanny thing, is the sheer number who say this is where they want to come back to retire and we have met many of them that have done so.

 

 

[Wicce]

I don't know if anyone else read the paper L'Echo on Friday, but there were a couple of very interesting articles in it about these current difficulties.  It's always interesting to see as many sides as possible.

Mary