Can French bank ask about source of money?

[EM]

I've had an account with Societe Generale for about 18 months. I'm studying in France and am listed as "student" in the bank's records. A month or two ago I transferred some money into the account (wire transfer from overseas), more than doubling my usual balance (but we're not talking millions here or anything!) Today I received a voicemail from the bank and, as best I could understand the fast French, they think I have a bit too much money for a student and want me to call back to "update my status" or something like that.

I will, of course, call back and confirm that I am indeed still a student. Can they then ask me about how I happened to have this money? What can they do if I refuse to answer? Are there French laws about what a bank can and cannot ask? There's nothing dodgy going on, but I don't feel that I should have to explain that, let alone prove it. To my mind, this is nobody's business, but my own. In fact, I don't know why they even care whether I'm a student or not enough to call me. (I don't receive any student discounts from them.)

[HoneySuckleDreams]

Yes they can but if it's something legit then don't worry yourself.

Anything over 12K (i think but that limit may have been reduced now) is automatically queried but if you have something into your account that is "not normal" they can query it.

Just think yourself lucky that you don't have a UK visa card. Every time I use it to top-up my mobile it gets flagged as a fraudulent transaction and the card is blocked. It takes 30-60minutes to unblock it.

 

 

[EM]

OK, so they can ask, but what can they do if I tell them "ca ne vous concerne pas", which I have a good mind to do? Can they freeze my account, for example, just because I refuse to discuss my financial situation with them?

[AnOther]

I'm not sure it's the banks business to quiz deposits or transfers but under international money laundering rules sums in excess of €10k (I believe) are notifiable to the tax authorities.

Are you absolutely sure that you don't have a student A/C of some sort, even if you do derive no particular benefit from it ?

If you don't like their attitude then take your money out and open an A/C elsewhere.

[Chancer]

Whilst i would not put it past the nosey gits nothing you have said makes it sound like they are going to ask you the source of the money, you do however sound like you have something to hide [:D]

More than likely they will just want to summons you to talk to some spotty inexperienced Financial guru for them to place your money and lose it for you, and I use the word summons advisedly, thats the way they operate, I just laugh at them and tell them to get lost, ithat f they really want to see me then they should ask in a reasonable manner and then I will tell them what they can do with their Financial advice in an unreasonable manner.

[minnie]

Whether in France or UK a bank can make enquiries about any transaction which is not in line with the norm for your account. Should you refuse to answer you may find that the matter is referred to the tax authorities so that they can investigate whether this is an income which needs to be taxed. You could then end up with a tax bill on the amount credited. If that remained unpaid then your account would be frozen. Personally I'd just tell them if you have nothing to be concerned about.

[Pickles]

[quote user="EM"]OK, so they can ask, but what can they do if I tell them "ca ne vous concerne pas", which I have a good mind to do? Can they freeze my account, for example, just because I refuse to discuss my financial situation with them?[/quote]

We found SG to have always been somewhat inclined towards officiousness. They think that they are fulfilling the demands placed upon them by the French Govt, and seem to love any excuse to pry into the account-holders affairs and add another note to your "dossier". We paid in the €5K proceeds of a car sale and they wanted to see a copy of the bill of sale. Didn't bother us so we gave them a copy. Just give them a reasonable explanation (eg bursary or scholarship payment from UK, gift from parents etc). They may indeed have a right to ask for an explanation of the source of the money and if you choose to be uncooperative, they could in extremis retaliate whilst hiding (possibly erroneously) behind the excuse of "the Fisc requires to know" or some such. Read very carefully the terms and conditions of your account: you may find some surprising ones.

Personally, I would save the snottiness for when they make a mistake.

Incidentally, I note from their latest tariff sheet that they intend to charge a 2€/month fee for just having a current account from January 2016 onwards.

[andyh4]

EM asked

OK, so they can ask, but what can they do if I tell them "ca ne vous concerne pas", which I have a good mind to do?

UNQUOTE

One other thing they can do is to refuse to handle the transaction until you provide the data. Since the money was wired to you, they cannot send it back, so it will just sit in their accounts until you play ball.

They have a legal requirement to report all unusual (I guess wired money would count as unusual) and large transactions to the tax authorities,

and they have you by the S&Cs.

[EM]

[quote user="andyh4"]One other thing they can do is to refuse to handle the transaction until you provide the data. Since the money was wired to you, they cannot send it back, so it will just sit in their accounts until you play ball.[/quote]

Well, the transfers were actually done over a month ago, so the money has already been in my account for some time. As far as I can see there's nothing currently preventing me from spending or withdrawing it. However, it could certainly look suspicious if I suddenly transferred all (or most) of it out as soon as they contacted me, even if it was to another French bank!

P.S. What are "the S&Cs"?

[idun]

......... short and curlies.

Incidentally, we had money blocked in France when we first arrived, not by the bank it was going to but the french bank our UK bank was using as an agent, and that was in 1981....... so this is nothing new.

I always advise our bank(s) of any unusual transactions these day, just in case.

[AnOther]

[quote user="minnie"]Whether in France or UK a bank can make enquiries about any transaction which is not in line with the norm for your account. Should you refuse to answer you may find that the matter is referred to the tax authorities so that they can investigate whether this is an income which needs to be taxed. You could then end up with a tax bill on the amount credited. If that remained unpaid then your account would be frozen. Personally I'd just tell them if you have nothing to be concerned about.[/quote]Sounds like someone's fully taken on board the French mentality of fear of officialdom and unquestioning compliance [;-)]

[Hereford]

Before you get too bolshie EM it could just be that the bank think you have too much in a current account and want you to have a savings account.  Our bank have been known to telephone us if (for a reason known to us!) we don't transfer spare cash out to a savings account.  We just say that we have reasons and they have given up bothering.

Still nothing to do with them if you like to keep a big balance - so go and see them this once and find out exactly what it is they are stressed about.  You clearly have good French so will not be at a disadvantage.

[PaulT]

I suppose another scenario could be a scam and using, say, Western Union. They just want to make sure.

As has been said they are required to check for money laundering and could want to check that this is not an attempt to check if money laundering could be carried out using your account.

You could get bolshie and find it causes you problems or take your account to another bank where the same thing happens.

At some point in your life you may want the co-operation of the bank and being bolshie may not endear you to the bank.

[dave21478]

I had €9k wired to me from an anonymous numbered account in the Cayman Isles - that really knotted some panties at my rural branch of Credit Agricole.

Sadly, it was funds being advanced by a client for work I was doing, but the bank still assume I am up to something and poke their nose in as often as they can. I regularly get summoned to "talk about my account needs" and I regularly tell them to poke it. I listened to their spiel once and it boiled down to them wanting me to split my money into 3 different accounts, which I would have to pay for, and manage myself, which would make my money less accessible to me and generally be a pain in the chuff, all for the "benefit" of about nine euros per month in interest. She was silent when I pointed out that the extra account charges added up to 11 euros a month.

[EM]

Oh, I don't know where you got the idea that I have good French, Hereford! Not at all - and that's a significant part of what's stressing me out about this.

From the message, I think it is the incoming wire transfers they're concerned about (rather than the balance per se), but no, there is no Western Union involved. :) I haven't made large cash withdrawals or anything like that - the money is still in my account.

It's not a matter of "getting bolshie", it's a matter of not wanting to talk to them about this at all. I'd love to find a way to do that that doesn't seem hostile, but also doesn't involve talking like a politician (which I wouldn't be able to pull off even if I wanted to) or just completely ignoring them (which I don't think would help).

I sent them a simple message through their Internet Banking site, confirming that I am still a student. Written French is much easier, so I hope they also respond in writing.

[mint]

If they do telephone instead of writing, just tell them you find writing easier to read and understand and would they write instead.

Failing this, you might well have to visit them the once.  If you do have to see them, don't forget to point out that you find all of this very stressful and that the stress is affecting your studies.

They won't apologise but they might well stop the pestering. 

[Chancer]

[quote user="EM"]Oh, I don't know where you got the idea that I have good French, Hereford! Not at all - and that's a significant part of what's stressing me out about this. From the message, I think it is the incoming wire transfers they're concerned about (rather than the balance per se), but no, there is no Western Union involved. :) I haven't made large cash withdrawals or anything like that - the money is still in my account. It's not a matter of "getting bolshie", it's a matter of not wanting to talk to them about this at all. I'd love to find a way to do that that doesn't seem hostile, but also doesn't involve talking like a politician (which I wouldn't be able to pull off even if I wanted to) or just completely ignoring them (which I don't think would help). I sent them a simple message through their Internet Banking site, confirming that I am still a student. Written French is much easier, so I hope they also respond in writing.[/quote]

I think that you have done exactly the right thing.

The person probably has been told to make the call to every Customer with more than "X" or who recieves a virement of more then "Y" they now have a record of a response which will probably be enough for them to put it in the "classé" pile, you were Wise to give them no more information then they were demanding which they could whet their appetites with.

It may even be a function of the current highest level of vigipiracy, here the G-men go about in minimum of 3's with one holding a mitrailleuse horizontal with one finger on the trigger, they will surely be looking at funding of certain foreign individuals especially students, especially of  certain nationalities and/or money coming from those countries.

[EM]

Well, they did ask where the money came from! I simply told them it came from my account in my home country, same as all the incoming transfers before that. I thought "here we go, next they'll ask for some documents related to that!", but they just replied saying "thank you for the information". They did ask for proof of my student status (at the same time), so I sent them a scan of my student card.

I can only hope you're right, Chancer, and this is the end of it, but my mind isn't at ease just yet! Even if the bank doesn't ask for anything further they still might report this to the tax office, which won't be so easily satisfied. I do need to sort out my taxes in any case (as per my other topic), but I certainly don't need an audit! Oh well, here's hoping for the best...

[idun]

Well if it this has happened in 2015 (and you are staying in France), you should not have to worry about it until spring 2016 as the tax year is from the 1st of Jan to the 31st of Dec. So the tax you will be sorting out soon, will be for 2014.

[lindal1000]

I've just transferred a largish sum of money over using a currency broker and I got a call from laposte . I happened to be at work at the time and I couldn't speak to them but I think they just wanted to sell me some savings products. I have arranged to go and see them as I need to open a second current account for my AE and I have no intention of paying professional account fees for something that will only have a couple of thousand euros going into it..so I intend to use it as a bargaining tool. I'll be interested to see if they ask about the source of the money. I deliberately kept the amount to just under 10000 euros. I think all financial companies here and in UK have a responsibility to ensure that the money they are dealing in comes from legitimate sources. The company I used wanted a lot of info about me and my bank account before they would trade for me. I have also bought a car in France using a direct money transfer from the currency trader into the bank account of the car company. You won't necessarily know if you have been investigated. When my sister in UK applied for a mortgage and a credit check was done, she found that she had been investigated for money laundering after she received the money from our late mother's estate into her bank account.

[EM]

My hope didn't last long - they've now asked for "justificatifs" of the wire transfers. They want statements (I think) of the source account, which REALLY seems to me like none of their business!

Also, so far they've only been asking questions and have not bothered to explain anything to me. So even if I co-operate and answer the next question and the next one and the next one - I just don't know where this is going and what else they're going to ask for! Maybe next they'll ask "and could you explain the incoming wire transfers on THAT account? and could you provide some documentation for that?" etc.

[Hereford]

It really is just a fact of the Money Laundering rules gone mad. It is much the same in the UK - the banks are terrified of being accused of receiving drug etc money.

EM: you seems terribly worried about both this and your tax situation. If you have done nothing wrong and can prove the source of the money then you really should not worry. I realise you are a student (though I am confused as to how you can study in France without apparently speaking the language) so probably young. Surely the Uni/college you are studying with have student advisers who can help you?  Or even one of your teachers?

The bank will worry more if you seem (to them) to be evasive.  Sadly today banks can and do try to cover themselves by asking questions.  There has been a thread lately where Credit Agricole were asking customers to "rate" their own sophistication in money matters. Luckily one "box" to tick said effectively "I will not answer". I ticked that box and so did others, much to the annoyance to the bank but they seem to have accepted it despite another try online last week.

keep calm, best wishes

Mrs H.

[suein56]

In your original post you wrote : A month or two ago I transferred some money into the account (wire transfer from overseas)

In my view this might be the source of your continuing problem with Soc Gen if 'overseas' was outside the EU. Whilst the money laundering rules are strictly adhered to within the EU when money comes from outside then the questions/investigations can become really intrusive. And depending just where overseas you are talking about then the problem will not go away until you provide some evidence to your Bank of the paper trail of your funds.

Sue

[Pickles]

[quote user="Hereford"]I am confused as to how you can study in France without apparently speaking the language

[/quote]

Easy: some French universities teach some courses in English. My god-daughter did an Erasmus year in France and IIRC all the courses she attended were in English ... (well, a version of English, anyway ...)

[EM]

[quote user="Hereford"]If you have done nothing wrong and can prove the source of the money then you really should not worry.[/quote]

OK, and what if I've done nothing wrong, but cannot prove the source of the money? Then I suppose I should worry - and I do!

Yes, my course is entirely in English. And yes, the transfers were from outside the EU.

I did ask about this at my university, actually, but they couldn't tell me anything useful. The well-meaning staff agreed with me that this shouldn't be any of the bank's business. They said they'd never heard of this happening before. If I had a euro for every time I heard that...

Perhaps I'm alone in this, but I really feel that the bank is totally abusing its power and the trust I've placed in it. Had they told me about this up-front I would never have done so!

The worst thing about it is that their threat is implicit and I don't actually know what it is I'm being threatened with. It IS a threat, though - there is an implication of negative consequence for not giving them what they want. (Otherwise why would anyone answer?) Of course, even asking them to explain themselves can be seen as "uncooperative" - and they're still unlikely to give me a meaningful answer.

Anyway, I suppose I'll have to send them the statement they're after and just HOPE that satisfies them.