Netiquette

[KathyC]

[quote user="catalpa"]

Dick - I think you took my thought to an extreme. Am I wrong in thinking that for you (or Susan) one of your students handing in work with no care for punctuation or grammar would be disrespectful in that the student was not taking their work - and their teacher - seriously? You've said on here that you are pleased when your students succeed - and does it therefore follow you experience some satisfaction in your job well done? Taking this further, my reasoning was that a teacher would be more attuned to sloppy "work" on a forum - or anywhere else - than many of us and therefore less tolerant

[/quote]

I don't know about considering it disrespectful but you are probably right about noticing it more. If I had an unskilled builder in to construct a wall, I probably wouldn't notice the mistakes that would be glaringly obvious to a skilled bricklayer. I might not even think that the faults were particularly important, so long as the wall held up. But the faults would be there nonetheless and perhaps the wall would fall down if something heavy was put on it. I think I've stretched this metaphor about as far as it will go but I think that it's valid; grammar , spelling and punctuation are the building blocks of communication.

Enough with the figures of speech already!

[KathyC]

[quote user="Cassis"]

I really don't think we are poles apart on this.  But I insist that it would be wrong to look down on someone who posts without correct punctuation, spelling etc. or to think that there is some reason to distrust what they say.
[/quote]

You're absolutely right, Cassis and I don't think I do that. It's a bit like taking your car to the garage and have the mechanic purse his lips and say "who did that?" when you've fitted new windscreen wipers incorrectly!

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Yes, Cat, you are right. My apologies.
[/quote]

Accepted.

I'm going to bed now. Coming ??? [:P]

 

I am soooooooo going to get a warning from James...

[Dick Smith]

I don't think he's the jealous type...

[Cassis]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]

Swiss Tony and Barry - now that would be a couple...

Cassis - there was a long period when young teachers were unable to teach grammar and punctuation because they couldn't do it themselves. The spelling of a lot of teachers leaves a great deal to be desired as well. Or a grate deal...

[/quote]

This Swiss Barry is worrying me now.  I've found a chocolate manufacturer and a mountain rescue dog on Google.  Swiss Toni I have no problem with - treat 'em well, give 'em a box of chocolates etc.  Who was on the forum - the car salesman, the chocolate entrepreneur, or the dog?

I know I was taught English grammar, sentence construction etc. at some point before the age of 10, but I can't recall any of the formalities of it now.  Went through the same sort of thing learning Latin and Greek - can barely remember a sausage.  I don't think I learned how to construct a sentence through formal education, rather through reading.  Which is a point that Dick has made in the past.  And I like to bend rules.

[vervialle]

It is very nice that you all care about punctuation and the use of good english , but I think it is putting people off posting incase they make a mistake. I am probably one of the offenders and will end up with a complex at this rate.

[Cassis]

[quote user="KathyC"]

You're absolutely right, Cassis and I don't think I do that. It's a bit like taking your car to the garage and have the mechanic purse his lips and say "who did that?" when you've fitted new windscreen wipers incorrectly!

[/quote]

Okay, I won't say anything about punctuation in this post.

Sorry, couldn't resist it!   Let's be friends anyway and admit none of us are perfect.

[Cassis]

[quote user="vervialle"]It is very nice that you all care about punctuation and the use of good english , but I think it is putting people off posting incase they make a mistake. I am probably one of the offenders and will end up with a complex at this rate.[/quote]

Agreed!  Let's have some leeway here.

[nimportequoi]

I don't mind rules being bent, as long as the posts are still interesting. I do get a little annoyed when people post asking for jobs or info on where they can get jobs when they have 4 A levels and a degree and still can't write properly. That is weird (the i before e rule except after c doesn't work here either!) . Missyesbut, where are you?? You understood my grammar rules which shows how thoroughly the French learn grammar in contrast to the the Brits!

[vervialle]

I must admit the use of good english is a joy to read, but I think there is snobbery attached to it some of the most interesting writers have little knowledge of good english grammar.How do you feel about all the new words used now to express ones self eg; cool, I thought that described the temperature.

[Dave]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Absolutely not, Catalpa. As teachers we probably read more across a wider range of readers. The rest of your comment is, to be honest, just too silly to respond to.

Dago - would you like to - are you able to - expand on your answer, including the reasons for your response? Just being rude doesn't denote intelligence...

[/quote]

I don't actually remember trying to claim intelligence, far from it. I was trying to show my ignorance and obviously I have succeeded[;-)] But I do not recall being rude unlike your response to Catalpa. What exactly was it that you needed expanding?

[daryl-et-elaine]

[quote user="Dago"][quote user="Dick Smith"]This will no doubt offend some, but I'm not sure I completely agree with you, Susan.

There are degrees of all of these things.

Punctuation: Yes. We sometimes see completely unpunctuated posts, that is not just lazy, but also a clear 'disrespect message' to the readers. No reason for that, except possibly low intellect, but then would people who are incapable of understanding basic punctuation be posting on a forum like this? My verdict - punctuate properly. Learn the use of the apostrophe, it isn't hard. When in doubt, leave it out, but at least give the reader a clue about where sentences begin and end.

Spelling: There are dyslexics - but that is relatively easy to spot. There are people with spelling blind spots - I have some of those, and they are quite frustrating.
Some people missed out on formal education, but may be otherwise 'intelligent' - though that is a problematic formulation. Some people just can't spell very well. See comments about 'intelligence' above.

Some people mis-spell on purpose in order to either appear uneducated or to pretend to be someone else.

None of these include typos, which are usually easy to spot, and get everybody. Typos increase exponentially with alcohol consumption.

Grammar: Generally quite good, not in the formal sense, but as everyday colloquial grammar goes it is usually done quite well. You don't often see ungrammatical posts here, or on other forums.

Not me in teacher mode, honest...

[/quote]

Testiculation....[:P]
[/quote]

Seconded Dago.

I've browsed through the various conditions attached to posting on the forum and I'm sorry Dick, I can't find any reference to the fact one must have a GCE in English before committing finger to keyboard!

I served the Crown for over 25 years (In fact still do when required), and during this time have come across Senior Officers who proudly demonstrated their command of the English language by dotting the i's and crossing the t's of submitted reports. They would also ask for "Situation Reports", or "Expected Time of Arrival", whereas the majority spoke of SITREPS or ETA's.

My point, I didn't give a toss if a guy got his 'there' and 'their' mixed up as long as I could understand the gist of what was written. I was more concerned the guy could navigate, look after an injured buddy or not trash himself on an unexploded item of ordnance. Life skills are a damn site more important, especially in the world we live in today.

There is a saying "Those that can - do. Those that can't - teach it and become experts". Perhaps should be spelt Exspurt. Ex - in the past or a has been, spurt - to squirt or spew forth.

Daryl

 

[Dave]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]I made a post and your response was 'testicles' ot words to the effect thereof.

So why such a rude response, and are you able to back it up?

[/quote]

You may be good with punctuation & grammar Dick but you obviously have trouble with the written word, I actually wrote 'testiculation' must be too much 'pride'  [:)] I have to agree with Daryl, better to get your message across, no matter how badly written than to never post at all, which is what a lot of people new to the forum would think if they read this thread.

[Dick Smith]

It's amazing how people read things into what other people write!

That is exactly my point.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="daryl-et-elaine"]

My point, I didn't give a toss if a guy got his 'there' and 'their' mixed up as long as I could understand the gist of what was written. I was more concerned the guy could navigate, look after an injured buddy or not trash himself on an unexploded item of ordnance. Life skills are a damn site more important, especially in the world we live in today.

[/quote]

I think you're getting cross and taking things out of context, d-et-e.   You may despise the rest of us for not being out there in what you think of as the real world, but somebody's got to do it, eh? 

As for "the world today"......... sounds good, but it's not so different from the world any other day, really.

 

[Dick Smith]

Yes, SB. You can always tell when people have got no real answer when they chuck up the old GBS line - out of context, of course.

I wonder how d-et-e would have fared (not faired) if he had followed badly written orders and got it all wrong...

[Dave]

[quote user="SaligoBay"][quote user="daryl-et-elaine"]

My point, I didn't give a toss if a guy got his 'there' and 'their' mixed up as long as I could understand the gist of what was written. I was more concerned the guy could navigate, look after an injured buddy or not trash himself on an unexploded item of ordnance. Life skills are a damn site more important, especially in the world we live in today.

[/quote]

I think you're getting cross and taking things out of context, d-et-e.   You may despise the rest of us for not being out there in what you think of as the real world, but somebody's got to do it, eh? 

As for "the world today"......... sounds good, but it's not so different from the world any other day, really.

 

[/quote]

I have re-read Daryls post and can't see where he said that he despises you or others SB, perhaps I have missed something in another post? Surely you don't agree that each time some one posts on this forum the said post should be corrected because of bad spelling, punctuation or grammar? And it would seem that if someone posts a disagreement with one of the regular posters they are immeditely attacked from almost all sides, and the world today IS changing and young and old are using txt speak more and more, I don't like it but sometimes use it when chatting online to youngsters in our family and also because my typing is not fast enough sometimes. No offence is meant to anyone or anything by this post  [:D]

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Dago"]I have re-read Daryls post and can't see where he said that he despises you or others SB, perhaps I have missed something in another post? [/quote]

It's an attitude, Dago, that the only people who matter are those who are out there being ruff and tuff, building roads and bombs, and the rest of us don't know about Real Life Out There. 

"Those who can, do......." yawn, it might have been funny the first time it was said, but really it's just a mindless and meaningless chant, and is the last refuge of the scoundrel who can't think of anything better to say to a teacher.

[quote user="Dago"]and the world today IS changing [/quote]

The world has ALWAYS been changing, Dago!   If it didn't, we'd still be amoeba swimming about in a primordial soup.   Or maybe not even that! 

If you don't like txt spk, what kind of English do you think should be preserved as the Real Thing?   Anglo-Saxon, or something more advanced?   Chaucerian?   Shakespearian?   Victorian?  

[Missy]

[quote user="catalpa"]It is interesting that the two people who are most likely to view badly constructed posts as disrespectful are teachers. Do you think you may be far more focussed on grammar, punctuation etc just because you are teachers and you judge your students - and I assume to an extent, your own capabilities and success - on the quality of work you get back from them. Sloppy work really is directly disrespectful of you.Cassis and me (sorry, couldn't reisist) on the other hand, don't have the same focus on the written word (you can't hear caps, commas and apostrophes in speech) so are more relaxed about what's acceptable to us.[/quote]

I don't agree with the comment of 'because you are teachers, you view badly constructed posts as disrespectful... etc...etc...'

I am a financial accountant and can't read anything which doesn't stand grammatically. Starting with my bosses' memos! I struggle to read the text which wastes my time to carry out the order.

Possibly because I learnt English during the 70's when grammar, punctuation, spelling were still of importance. Sloppy work is disrespectful FULLSTOP. Not only to the person who must read it but to the person who wrote it. Letters of motivation with CV which are sloppily written are quickly dismissed before we have even unfolded the letter. We see it from the way the address is written. I know it is unfair but a little application, on the part of the jobseeker, can go a long way. 

Just call me old fashion...   (I also have a very sarcastic mind and have just seen a terrible pun!... Sorry!)

[KathyC]

[quote user="daryl-et-elaine"]

There is a saying "Those that can - do. Those that can't - teach it and become experts". Perhaps should be spelt Exspurt. Ex - in the past or a has been, spurt - to squirt or spew forth.

Daryl

 

[/quote]

 

I can honestly say that this is one of the most offensive comments that I've ever read on this board, congratulations!

When you talk about "serving the Crown", you don't mention in what capacity; is this a rather grand way of saying you were a squaddie?

[Dave]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

If you don't like txt spk, what kind of English do you think should be preserved as the Real Thing?   Anglo-Saxon, or something more advanced?   Chaucerian?   Shakespearian?   Victorian?  

[/quote]

I didn't actually say that I wanted to preserve any English as the 'Real Thing' I just wanted to make the point (as did Daryl, I think) that if posters continue to analyze posts and correct the Spelling, Grammar and Puntuation it will lead to a decline in new members posting, only MY opinion though and probably not worth much as I am one of those living in the 'Real' world but then, aren't we all? Also I am one of those 'being ruff and tuff, building roads and bombs' and I have never said "Those that can...etc" it seems that you may have an 'attitude' towards those of us that have less of an education or as Dick kindly pointed out to me "lack of intelligence" perhaps there needs to be a Forum Heading entitled 'Educationally Challenged' that is probably not an actual word and if it is I have most likely spelt it wrong but I am sure to be corrected....

The content of this post is not meant to offend or upset anyone who is 'Educationally Challenged' or indeed any of the Forum Members.[;-)]

[KathyC]

[quote user="missyesbut"]

Possibly because I learnt English during the 70's when grammar, punctuation, spelling were still of importance. Sloppy work is disrespectful FULLSTOP. Not only to the person who must read it but to the person who wrote it. Letters of motivation with CV which are sloppily written are quickly dismissed before we have even unfolded the letter. We see it from the way the address is written. I know it is unfair but a little application, on the part of the jobseeker, can go a long way. 

[/quote]

Part of my work is helping people to find work and to advise them on writing CVs and letters of application. You are so right about the importance of using correct language when doing this, most employers won't bother considering your application, much less offering an interview  if you present yourself poorly in writing. When people haven't bothered mastering basic skills it doesn't bode well for their ability to learn anything new or for their attention to detail in other areas.

 

Dago

This is just one thread in a very large forum that has gone a bit off topic in discussing use of English. I don't think that anyone makes a habit of criticising other posters' English on other threads. I'm sure we would all think that incredibly rude.

[Hoddy]

Originally this thread was about Netiquette and now we seem to be talking about correct grammar, spelling and punctuation on the forum and whether anyone should correct it if it seems wrong.

I write as someone whose teaching experience is very similar to Dick’s. I believe we qualified at about the same time, with the same degree and have held similar positions of responsibility within schools

I care at least as much as Dick does about English being written correctly and I take the point made by him and others that we do need to understand exactly what other people mean.

This forum is not set up as an icon of perfect English. It is here for people who are interested in France. I think it rather rude to correct another adult’s use of English. While I was still in teaching I used to encourage parents to drop me a note if they had any worries about their child and I know many of them were reluctant to because they thought it would be graded. I would hate to see a situation develop where people were afraid to post because they felt they would going to be corrected or made fun of. After all hardly hardly anyone on here is applying for a job.

I also know that I make mistakes myself.

Hoddy

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Dago"][only MY opinion though and probably not worth much as I am one of those living in the 'Real' world but then, aren't we all? Also I am one of those 'being ruff and tuff, building roads and bombs' and I have never said "Those that can...etc" it seems that you may have an 'attitude' towards those of us that have less of an education
[/quote]

No, but the other poster did!  

His post suggested strongly that grammar and spelling were useless because they didn't help people in dramatic, life-threatening situations out there in the big, bad, dangerous world.   But we can't all be out there, and "out there" is no higher in the value hierarchy than "back here".    

I have no knowledge of, or interest in, your formal education.  I know enough extremely stupid Ph.Ds to know better.

And talking of danger, I'm off to La Poste now, have to walk past the tigers and lions in the travelling circus.  Hope the ruffy-tuffy circus types have shut their cages properly. [Www] 

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Hoddy"]I also know that I make mistakes myself. Hoddy[/quote]

I think your biggest mistake, Hoddy, was getting rid of that bidet on wheels!  [:D]