Cassis Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Dick in teacher mode.[img]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:JqtoeScyvrjUWM:www.vancouverpodcaster.com/images/Chimpanzee-Teacher.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I love it! Can I use it for my new avatar, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 [quote user="Dick Smith"]Some people mis-spell on purpose in order to either appear uneducated or to pretend to be someone else. [/quote]Crikey - what sort of weird hidden agenda do those types have? Are you saying there are some dissimulators on here, Dick? I've forgotten the other word you gave for those who live a double identity cyber-life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Sock-puppets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 First of all, define intelligence. [:D] I do know what you mean, Susannah... but I don't think I'm someone who is that judgemental in my interactions with others. Or exclusive - in the sense of dismissing on a forum like this the input of people who may have plenty of common sense and experience with "stuff" but have no facility with language or grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Not sure the teacher chimp's mine to give, Dick - but feel free. You can see the URL if you right click (sorry, teaching teacher to suck eggs).Edit - that's right - sock puppets. Thanx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimportequoi Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 yes it was a completely stupid thing to say i'm sorry i should have realised that its the punctuation and lack of capitals that comes across as a little rude not the spelling or grammar thankyou for putting me right dick im not really a snob and do appreciate the info given on this forum generally sorry for having offended anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 [quote user="catalpa"]... I don't think I'm someone who is that judgemental in my interactions with others. Or exclusive - in the sense of dismissing on a forum like this the input of people who may have plenty of common sense and experience with "stuff" but have no facility with language or grammar. [/quote]I also know a number of people who are an absolute treasure house of practical information on masonry, gardening etc. but who are far from gifted in the orthography dept. Doesn't mean I wouldn't trust their advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Hang on - I didn't say anything about you being a snob or anything else, I only said that I didn't completely agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 [quote user="SusanAH"]yes it was a completely stupid thing to say i'm sorry i should have realised that its the punctuation and lack of capitals that comes across as a little rude not the spelling or grammar thankyou for putting me right dick im not really a snob and do appreciate the info given on this forum generally sorry for having offended anyone[/quote]Almost Joyceian. But not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 [quote user="Dick Smith"]This will no doubt offend some, but I'm not sure I completely agree with you, Susan.There are degrees of all of these things. Punctuation: Yes. We sometimes see completely unpunctuated posts, that is not just lazy, but also a clear 'disrespect message' to the readers. No reason for that, except possibly low intellect, but then would people who are incapable of understanding basic punctuation be posting on a forum like this? My verdict - punctuate properly. Learn the use of the apostrophe, it isn't hard. When in doubt, leave it out, but at least give the reader a clue about where sentences begin and end.Spelling: There are dyslexics - but that is relatively easy to spot. There are people with spelling blind spots - I have some of those, and they are quite frustrating.Some people missed out on formal education, but may be otherwise 'intelligent' - though that is a problematic formulation. Some people just can't spell very well. See comments about 'intelligence' above.Some people mis-spell on purpose in order to either appear uneducated or to pretend to be someone else. None of these include typos, which are usually easy to spot, and get everybody. Typos increase exponentially with alcohol consumption.Grammar: Generally quite good, not in the formal sense, but as everyday colloquial grammar goes it is usually done quite well. You don't often see ungrammatical posts here, or on other forums.Not me in teacher mode, honest...[/quote]Testiculation....[:P] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I'm saying this in a really calm, non-confrontational way... It is interesting that the two people who are most likely to view badly constructed posts as disrespectful are teachers. Do you think you may be far more focussed on grammar, punctuation etc just because you are teachers and you judge your students - and I assume to an extent, your own capabilities and success - on the quality of work you get back from them. Sloppy work really is directly disrespectful of you.Cassis and me (sorry, couldn't reisist) on the other hand, don't have the same focus on the written word (you can't hear caps, commas and apostrophes in speech) so are more relaxed about what's acceptable to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Absolutely not, Catalpa. As teachers we probably read more across a wider range of readers. The rest of your comment is, to be honest, just too silly to respond to.Dago - would you like to - are you able to - expand on your answer, including the reasons for your response? Just being rude doesn't denote intelligence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimportequoi Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 [quote user="catalpa"]I'm saying this in a really calm, non-confrontational way... It is interesting that the two people who are most likely to view badly constructed posts as disrespectful are teachers. Do you think you may be far more focussed on grammar, punctuation etc just because you are teachers and you judge your students - and I assume to an extent, your own capabilities and success - on the quality of work you get back from them. Sloppy work really is directly disrespectful of you.Cassis and me (sorry, couldn't reisist) on the other hand, don't have the same focus on the written word (you can't hear caps, commas and apostrophes in speech) so are more relaxed about what's acceptable to us.[/quote]I have French students who know far more about English grammar than I do, which is not something I'm proud of - but it is something they learn really thoroughly at school. I don't entirely agree with this method as some of them still have difficulties in putting it into practice. I think for me it is a question of politeness and expressing yourself correctly as well as making posts easy to read (the point made about paragraphs). If I can be bothered to put in punctuation and capital letters, why can't other people? I've always enjoyed writing, though, so I try to do it properly - but I quite understand if it isn't a priority to other people. If I knew how to wire/plumb a house I would have saved myself far more money than I earn by teaching English! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimportequoi Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I just wanted to add another point - using punctuation (even bad spelling!) etc. gives your writing some sort of personality. I think that even if I didn't see the signatures of some of the more prolific posters, I could guess who they were by their style of writing. forums would be a bit boring if we all wrote in the same way all the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 [quote user="Dick Smith"]As teachers we probably read more across a wider range of readers. The rest of your comment is, to be honest, just too silly to respond to.[/quote]I think you may have misinterpreted my comments. [:)] I base this view on the fact I don't understand your response. But it's nice that you consider what I genuinely meant as thoughtful comment as just too silly to respond to. [:P] As I assume further responses from you will be equally ill-mannered - even if impeccably constructed - please don't trouble yourself. [kiss] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Agreed on that.Some people have written with a really distinctive style (e.g. Miki) and others, like the lamented SwissTony with great humour and lightness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 [quote user="SusanAH"]If I can be bothered to put in punctuation and capital letters, why can't other people? I've always enjoyed writing, though, so I try to do it properly - but I quite understand if it isn't a priority to other people. If I knew how to wire/plumb a house I would have saved myself far more money than I earn by teaching English![/quote]I think the point is that writing well may come a lot easier to you than it does to a lot of other people. We all have different talents, some good at plumbing and electrics, some good at English, French or Latin. A lucky few can do all (swine). It would be a shame if those who have the skill to be able to wire and plumb a house were to stop posting useful info for fear of what others might think of their spelling, punctuation or whatever. That said, I don't think that posts are that bad, anyway - what are we getting so worked up about? Let's chilll out and allow the odd error. Put it down to unfqmiliqrity with French keyboqrds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Sorry, Cat, but the thought that I would object to poor punctuation and grammar because I could not accept the idea of personal failure is, I'm afraid, towards the silly end of the spectrum. And just the tiniest tad patronising? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 [quote user="Dick Smith"]Agreed on that.Some people have written with a really distinctive style (e.g. Miki) and others, like the lamented SwissTony with great humour and lightness.[/quote]THIS Swiss Toni?[img]http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/content/images/2004/09/18/swiss_tony_203x152.jpg[/img]Oh, man, must have been before I got here - what happened? Don't forget, a forum is like a lady ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 It was Swissbarry.Dick - I think you took my thought to an extreme. Am I wrong in thinking that for you (or Susan) one of your students handing in work with no care for punctuation or grammar would be disrespectful in that the student was not taking their work - and their teacher - seriously? You've said on here that you are pleased when your students succeed - and does it therefore follow you experience some satisfaction in your job well done? Taking this further, my reasoning was that a teacher would be more attuned to sloppy "work" on a forum - or anywhere else - than many of us and therefore less tolerant.You may disagree, you may consider it a facile observation but I think disagreement in discussion - and this was a discussion - should be interesting for the parties involved and something to explore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 [quote user="Cassis"]No, I'm not confusing formal/informal language. I was debating on what is 'proper English' for a forum. Written and spoken language are different - I think spoken (informal) language conventions are fine for a forum. There's no reason why spoken language should be lacking in clarity.[/quote]There's also no reason why spoken language should be lacking in grammar. Punctuation is obviously an aspect of written language, but usually mimics the rhythms of speech. People who write a long section (I won't call it a paragraph) without any punctuation wouldn't normally talk like this, they would breathe (use a comma) or pause (use a full stop).I think that the reason that some of us feel strongly about this is not because we think that we're really clever to be able to do it, but because we know how easy it is. There was a long period in education when it was not fashionable (perhaps not politically correct) to teach the mechanics of language and these skills became lost to many. Hopefully the the tide has now turned on this; unfortunately many young teachers are now having to learn skills that were not part of their own education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 But you can't really equate posting on a forum with handing in your homework at school, can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Yes, Cat, you are right. My apologies.Also to Swiss Tony and Barry - now that would be a couple...Cassis - there was a long period when young teachers were unable to teach grammar and punctuation because they couldn't do it themselves. The spelling of a lot of teachers leaves a great deal to be desired as well. Or a grate deal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 [quote user="KathyC"][quote user="Cassis"]No, I'm not confusing formal/informal language. I was debating on what is 'proper English' for a forum. Written and spoken language are different - I think spoken (informal) language conventions are fine for a forum. There's no reason why spoken language should be lacking in clarity.[/quote]There's also no reason why spoken language should be lacking in grammar. Punctuation is obviously an aspect of written language, but usually mimics the rhythms of speech. People who write a long section (I won't call it a paragraph) without any punctuation wouldn't normally talk like this, they would breathe (use a comma) or pause (use a full stop).I think that the reason that some of us feel strongly about this is not because we think that we're really clever to be able to do it, but because we know how easy it is. There was a long period in education when it was not fashionable (perhaps not politically correct) to teach the mechanics of language and these skills became lost to many. Hopefully the the tide has now turned on this; unfortunately many young teachers are now having to learn skills that were not part of their own education.[/quote]I really don't think we are poles apart on this. But I insist that it would be wrong to look down on someone who posts without correct punctuation, spelling etc. or to think that there is some reason to distrust what they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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