5-element Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I am posting in the Off-Topic section, since this concerns both France and the UK (and much further).Did anyone else watch "Zone Interdite" on channel 6, last night?The theme was "new urban violence". Something that I found interesting is that the clips showed, were indiscriminately, of violence in France and in the UK - and a bit in the US, just to show the tape of 2 police people being shot dead. In some ways nothing of this is new: the "casseurs" who came in droves from the suburbs and mingled with demonstrating students in Paris last year, and then as mobs, attacked and beat up anyone about anything: students, journalists, CRS, passers-by,as well as destroying property and stealing mobiles, bags, etc. Then the happy slapping - a clip of a woman teacher in the classroom, being kicked to the ground and beaten while recorded, you can hear her terrified screams. And the one about 5 or 6 youngsters - including a 14-year old girl - who actually killed a man who was sleeping on a bench in England, kicking, jumping on him, smashing him to bits - and then walk away peacefully. And the clip of the man who was set on fire by two 19-year olds just for fun, and so on.....What I found profoundly disturbing is the interviews of some of these youngsters, and of their friends - the ones in the lycee who have the clip on their protable, of the beaten teacher. They mostly do not feel anything about any of the vistims. No compassion, no idea of right and wrong, and just find it all quite funny. One of the "casseurs" - who is only 19, and was subsequently arrested and put in a detention centre, can only say that "J'aime taper, c'est ma nature" (I like to beat up, it's in my nature) - and shows absolutely no remorse. Everything is just, well, normal. I know there is nothing new about violence - violence as in criminal violence, to steal a bag, a car, a watch, money, etc... this is more understandable. But violence with really no sense of right and wrong, are we living in a world which is breeding psychopaths??? Given that the violence mentioned seemed to occur in equal quantity in UK and France, I thought it was quite interesting to just put the 2 together in a programme, and make no difference.So, has anyone else seen that programme, and what did you think? I still feel quite haunted by it. Not in the sense of making me afraid for myself in the future, but more in wondering about the world in which we live, and franchement, I am not sure that any of the politicians have any great solutions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I didn't see the program. I wish I had.As someone who is raising an adolescent, I am constantly looking at this new young generation with worry. Oh yes, I know my parents did the same and their parents before them. However, I keep seeing more and more apathy in the younger generation. Is it any wonder with all the things they are faced with on a day to day basis. They seem (and I am generalising) to have little regard for others. I know there are exceptions to the rule, thank goodness. My own daughter spends way too much time in the house. So do her friends. They seem to be totally content just entertaining themselves, without socializing. Perhaps this is just something I am seeing and it is not mainstream. It worries me that these are our leaders of the future.Overall, it seems that films are more violent today than they were when I was a teenager. Music lyrics are way too often violent, extremely sexual and look at the videos that go with them. And, no one really seems to care. I believe these things can have a "numbing" affect on the latest generation of youngsters. These things along with unemployment figures and an overall unwillingness to change are having a major affect on our young people.Maybe I'm wrong.It has been known to happen .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 I now wish I had recorded the programme - but Lori, I wonder how you would have felt as a mother - something which I am not, and overall, very happy about. It would have added an extra dimension to the angst from watching such disturbing facts. It is so understandable to be concerned about your daughter's future, from your description. Teenagers (including ourselves) have always behaved weirdly and objectionably, which is quite normal. But this disregard for someone's suffering, this incapacity to distinguish right from wrong, the enjoyment and excitement from seeing other people's pain and torture, that is what *seems* newish - and I guess it fits with what you witness in your daughter and her friends in a much milder form.Obviously, good parenting is not the only safeguard, as I would imagine that your daughter has been very smart with her choice of parents(!). And as you point out and I keep reminding myself, many (the majority?) of youth do still know right from wrong, they still cringe when they see someone or an animal in pain and want to help, and they themselves would be incapable of gratuitous violence. But it is true that with the advent of violent videogames and those other things, there is a banalisation of that violence - and a distanciation too, it must seem surreal to them, and just like a movie, i.e. the person inflicting the violence is them but not them? Girls who laugh when seeing on a video another girl being beaten up by her boyfriend for daring to ring him at home, and saying it is no big deal, or seeing some gang-rape of a 15 year old, i.e. a total inability to identify with the victim, even if the victim is someone who could be themselves!!?? That is what I find so weird!In the programme, we see the family life of the young man who said it was in his nature to beat up. He is one of 4 children, mother died 2 years ago (!), so there is only the father, himself long-term unemployed, RMIste, and absolutely desperate - his son is bigger and stronger - the father is a broken man, almost suicidal it seemed - unable to bring himself now to open the post that comes regularly from all the court cases his son has been involved in, posts which requests various fines, all mounting up. There is no real hostility from the son to the father at all, but the son says to his father "Oh don't exaggerate - you go too far... you just go too far...What do you mean your life is over?" - he is absolutely unable to see that there is real damage, and that he himself is responsible for it. You are right Lori, they are numbed. The programme was a series of extreme examples. I wonder what effect such programmes have on those youngsters who are still able to differentiate right from wrong - and I am not talking about angels here, but about ordinary young people who engage in ordinary young people activities, and even do a few risky things - like many of us have done. Even those who are considered wild, but who have a very good idea of what is right and wrong, ultimately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 The programme is repeated at 1:20 on Wednesday morning, just in case there are any insomniacs amongst us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Would that be on M6 then? If so, I will set my alarm to get up and watch it.Yes, it will most likely depress me, but I would like to keep up with what is happening.I would bet that if my daughter (whom I will not wake up at that hour) saw the program, she would say that it is an exaggeration and that few are really like that. She is only turning 13 in a month, so is still young and immature. However, she looks 14 or 15 and is often chatting with kids that are older than her. The stories she comes home from school with make me wonder why I didn't put her in the Catholic Girls School like I said I would. But, when I discuss that with my French friends, they tell me stories from the private Catholic Girls School that could make my straight hair curl.Yes, I see what you are talking about 5 element. The numbing of our youngsters into needing huge stimulations to feel anything at all.Sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanguedocGal2 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I saw it. It’s indeed worrying but I’ll tackle the other issue it raises. There were two main issues covered; the reasons for the increase in random violent acts by the young (see 5-E’s posts) and methods used by the Police and Media to catch the culprits.The French seem to be fascinated by British and Americans attitudes to camera surveillance, TV crime shows etc in dealing with crime. Over the past year or so, I have seen so many French documentaries and discussions on the UK’s approach to these issues. In the programme last night, they again tried to understand the British and American obsession with programmes such as Crimewatch, America’s most wanted etc. Also, how successful (or not) these methods are in helping to solve cases.The French privacy laws mean that Camera surveillance, programmes like Crimewatch and the American equivalents raise complex ideological issues. However, as the same types of violence occurs here too, they have to try and see how best to tackle them. They will have to change the laws in France in order to take the same approach as the Brits and Americans. The French appear to be mystified by the fact that the ‘anglo-saxons’, who are obsessed with the idea of individual liberty, accept this level of surveillance so easily. They again show the surveillance project in Shoreditch, London – a bit of an old hat but amazing to the French.I personally think that they are intellectualising the issue too much as usual. The answer seems to me to be simple pragmatism. If cameras help to solve these crimes, the public seem to say, get on with it. The French need to comprehend it all on an intellectual, human rights level first.I thought the young girl in northern France, gang raped whilst drugged, was extremely brave to testify on camera. However, she only went to the police on hearing that there were photos of her during the incident circulating. Otherwise, she had not planned to report it.The pervasiveness of extreme violence on the net and TV is shown to be a contributing factor in the level of violent crimes by the young. What amazed me was how the law in the UK failed to ban the websites selling these horrific images (including decapitation etc) that can be downloaded onto telephones. The owner of the site featured was more than happy to talk about his business. The person only has to say they are over 18 to buy these downloads and share them with friends. These images are so violent that they cannot be shown in the media but everyone can download them. I was also saddened by the 16 year old from the Paris region featured. Without some sort of miracle in his life, his future – if he survives long enough to have one – seemed almost predetermined. Even the lawyer said that he was a difficult (insinuating hopeless) case.I wished the journalist had not let the Scotland Yard spokesman off so easily regarding the crime detection figures published in the Guardian that morning. French journalists are much too polite. Yes, it’s repeated Wednesday at 1.20am on M6. However, if you have teenage children/grand children and are of delicate disposition, I’m not sure I’d recommend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 [quote user="LanguedocGal2"]. Yes, it’s repeated Wednesday at 1.20am on M6. However, if you have teenage children/grand children and are of delicate disposition, I’m not sure I’d recommend it.[/quote] I don't think I am of a delicate disposition, but I HAVE to watch the show now. I will keep the kleenex box handy. So, just to clarify, that is late Tuesday night / early Wed. morning 1:20 amWill comment on Wednesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 [quote user="Lori"][. late Tuesday night / early Wed. morning 1:20 amWill comment on Wednesday. [/quote]Looking forward to that, Lori.Languedocgal, I am so interested by your take on the programme. I was too overwhelmed with the horror stuff to use any analytical faculties for the rest, so in the end, although we watched the same programme, we have 2 very different perspectives. Which is most enriching.BJSLV thank you too. I think now I might video the programme and watch it again with a cooler head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanguedocGal2 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 5-E, on the contrary, I simply wanted to dwell on the other issues raised for those who did not or cannot see it and may be interested.Also, being a bit of a news junkie, I had seen a lot of the footage used in the programme before in various documentaries.I found the american TV entrapment scenes quite surreal but have seen similar scenes before too. The faces of the Rabbi, marine, and the married Doctor with kids caught in the pedophile sting, for example ,were worth seeing. The concept of presumption of innocence is a real issue here. As I have not lived in the UK for a few years now and do not watch UK TV, I didn't know that along with the long running Crimewatch, programmes such as Revenge TV and such like existed nowadays. Lori, I think you'll be fine watching it. There are several reports in the programme. Of course, it doesn't deal with all the ''average'' law abiding youngsters out there but these documentaries rarely do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 I typed in my long comment on the program and the site would not complete my post, so I copied it into WORD and am pasting it back here as there was no way I was going to re-type this entire thing !Okay, well I saw it, all two hours of it.My very first impression may or may not be very relevant to the conversation. However, after 12 years working in Television in the U.S.A. - 10 in San Francisco and San Diego, the other two in the South, I think Zone Interdite simply skimmed the surface. If you could see some of the U.S. programs regarding Gangs in the U.S. (aged 10 to 20) and the things they do, you might not be shocked at all by the French program, but again, doesn't that mean those of us who have seen the gorry U.S. crime shows have been numbed by them. The first part about CarJacking is really old news. I'm not saying it shouldn't have been included in the show, of course it should have, but in all reality, that should have made it to the airwaves years ago. As the representative (Bruno) from the Police side of things (SYNERGIE) stated, these types of crimes have been going on in France for 20 years now.The second half of the show was much more revealing to me. Yes, watching those kids talk about how watching violent videos of REAL people getting beaten, raped or killed and laughing at it, finding it fun to watch because it is "just normal" was sickening. This new trend of using cell phones to capture violent activity and then pass it all around like a trophy says a great deal about these young people.I also found it quite interesting when the Psychiatrist felt that the younger generation has been exposed to images of violence, hatred and cruelty since their births. Attributing this exposure to their lack of ability to separate reality from fiction or recognize the impact of violence against real people. On the other side, Bruno (Police rep) completely disagreed with the Dr. stating that we too have been exposed to the same films, TV shows, violent lyrics, violent video games, brutalities shown on the news, etc. and WE have not become criminals. I believe we have all heard these two arguments before. I think both have merits. I have always (even on this forum) said that today's generation of young people are being exposed to more and more violence and we will all see the impact of such violence in the near future - and we are. The difference, I think, between today's young people and those of us who were born in the 50's and 60's is in fact the level of violence they see EVERY SINGLE DAY. I was born in the 60's when there was no where near the amount of violence on television, not even in mainstream films. Music lyrics might have gotten a little racey now and then, but they were no where near the violent and sexual lyrics our kids are singing to today. There was no Nintendo, Playstation, PC games or Internet to soak in. SO, when the Police Rep said that we are exposed to the same violence these kids are exposed to and WE have not become criminal, well I think a lot of that has to do with our age. We were raised to have respect for ourselves and others, particularly our elders.The kid that was visiting the lawyer, the one who left school at sixieme. That kids life is over. I don't see how he could get it together and survive outside the "system." And, it appeared to me that they all blamed it on the fact that his mother died when he was 12 and that is when everything went downhill. Sad as it is that his mother died, it seemed a cop-out to blame that for the child's acts. And, when his sister was asked how she felt about all the mischief her brother was getting into, she blamed society and said his actions were again, "totally normal." Granted we are talking about kids who are living in HLM projects (in this instance anyway) and that brings in a whole list of other issues that add to the problems. The two young men who used their cell phone to attack and set afire the man in the UK - to impress their girlfriends was just plain sick. If I heard correctly, they are each serving 6 years in prison. They were 18 at the time of the crime. This new trend of using cell phones to record violence and then passing them all around school, friends, etc., like passing around a stick of gum really needs to be addressed. And the guy who runs the Internet Website where you can download any murder, suicide, decapitation, rape, etc. at will, justifying his website by saying people need to know these things are going on was enough to make me vomit. When asked how he felt about young people, under 18, going to his website, clicking they are 18 and then downloading these images and passing them around to 10, 12, 14 year olds - his reply was "There is nothing we can do about that" made me want to beat HIM up. To say that he and his website are not adding to the problem should be a crime in itself.These young people are a drop in the bucket and I suppose that was one of the points of the program. As the Police Rep said, the violent images shown in today's world are NOT going away. What has to be done is constant parental talking with our kids. Asking questions, having debates, making sure they understand that these images are FICTION, never to be mixed into real life activities. Teaching them how very important it is to respect themselves and ALL others. Trying to put it all in perspective - and that won't be easy will it? Just how do you explain that the reason all this violence is out there is because it sells, the vast majority of people like it. As was said on the program, it is like instant excitement, instant gratification to a very troubling desire.The fact that cell phones are being used to record a perpetrator's violent act seems almost beyond stupid to me. Do they not think that in recording their crime, they have just hung themselves?? I realize that we are not dealing with extremely bright kids, but please, this is basic self protection. If this type of use of cell phones is not addressed by law, it needs to be.Overall, the program was certainly interesting. They need to produce many more like it to keep people aware of how things are developing. And school systems need to be implementing new classes which deal openly and honestly with the issues. If we keep ignoring it or saying oh that won't happen to my kid, we are not doing any service to our young generation. How sad. Well, that's my take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 There are many who think that antisocial behaviour and a cult of violence is a British (and American) thing. Programmes like that prove that it is a much wider problem and that you don't have to scrtach the surface very deeply in France to see that it exists, and not only in the big cities, here too.I have never understood the American version of what is and is not acceptable. A singer has a problem with her dress resulting in a quick flash of a breast - a whole nation is shocked and appalled. Yet every day people are mugged, gunned down and worse. That is part of everyday life. Even in its grossest forms it is celebrated in mainstream cinema and literature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jc Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Isn't this tied in with modern computer games?;you can slaughter everyone including yourself in the most horrible way and then press one button and you're back to the beginning again-it does not work that way in real life-you're DEAD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 [quote user="Jc"]Isn't this tied in with modern computer games?;you can slaughter everyone including yourself in the most horrible way and then press one button and you're back to the beginning again-it does not work that way in real life-you're DEAD.[/quote]Perhaps, but it's just a modern version of the Tom and Jerry type cartoons of my era. That poor cat got squashed, blown up, burnt, you name it and always came back for more! I guess there was just less of it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 [quote user="cooperlola"]Perhaps, but it's just a modern version of the Tom and Jerry type cartoons of my era. That poor cat got squashed, blown up, burnt, you name it and always came back for more! I guess there was just less of it....[/quote]You're right Coops, but there was no blood in the cowboy films then. Some of this modern stuff is so sickening as to defy belief. Is it any wonder that some kids are influenced by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 I'm sorry, but to compare the violence kids are faced with today to Tom & Jerry just doesn't work for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 [quote user="Lori"]I'm sorry, but to compare the violence kids are faced with today to Tom & Jerry just doesn't work for me. [/quote]It was a bit tongue in cheek. However, Tom and Jerry did give me nightmares when I was a kid and I couldn't watch it. Sensitive little flower... I do find the violence in films these days to be far too graphic for my taste but it strikes me that I always hated it, and wonder why this is so? What is it that makes me unable to stomach such things (I even have to turn off those medical reports on the news!) when others (of my generation too) can just watch and not even flinch. My older sister could happily watch things that turned my stomach. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Also, nowadays relationships and contact with others are so "virtual", that they're not in "real life", maybe it all becomes the same to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 A bit like the kind of contact we have here with most others on this forum, i.e. virtual???Food for thought.[:)]But about Tom and Jerry (cartoon), and violence in films (a movie is also "not for real"), watching violence which has happened in real life, real humans inflicting pain on other real humans, then obviously, to me, this is another notch up. Snuff movies are not new, that is true. But up until fairly recently, they had a limited, specific audience. Now it seems that the circle of happy viewers has considerably widened, for instance, do we believe that we don't know, or are parents to any of the young people who carry (and enjoy) those scenes on their mobiles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 I think that most kids are very well able to distinguish between real and fictional violence, but not all.I recently showed a video about Roman gladiatorial contests to a class of 11 year-olds. In this there were scenes of violence, quite realistic, but not particularly 'gory'. Most of the class watched as I would want them to, accepting that this was a dramatisation which was teaching history, but two boys, both previously excluded for fighting and other offences (at 11) reacted very differently. They became very over-excited at the slightest hint of violence, they called out, laughed, moved about in their seats. I found that disturbing (and I have discussed it with their head of year). These boys are seen as 'separate' by their classmates and already they are wary of them. Are they the exceptional pupils who because of some innate characteristic or learned behaviour are more accepting of violence, take pleasure in it and don't empathise with victims? I think so, as it is something I have seen many times in the last 30+ years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 You put it so well, Dick (comme d'habitude). It's pretty evident that violent movies/computer games etc are not in and of themselves responsible for the increase in violent behaviour although in some cases they may well be a contributing factor, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Perhaps those two boys had been subjected to something like this when they were three and four years oldIt made me want to weep.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6366255.stmHoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 You don't have to be that cruel to wreck a kid, unfortunately.It does make you wonder what was going through their minds (apart from the alcohol and narcotics, of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Absolutely awful. Another example of a growing trend.http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/02/19/homeless.attacks/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share Posted February 21, 2007 This one not so much about violence, but more "British kids" in general. I wonder whether the "British" part is relevant, maybe it could just be "Kids"http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2015633,00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 5-element:"As any parent of a teenager could tell you, one is all too frequently torn between calling for a psychiatrist and screaming for an exorcist."That was my favorite line out of the article. The comments after the article were kind of interesting too.And, I think you could be right, it isn't just British kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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