Scots - would you go back ?

[Patmobile]

Apparently Sean Connery has promised to go back to live in Scotland when it becomes independent.  Like many talented Scots he had to leave to make make a living. 

He probably doesn't realise that 40% of people working in Scotland are employed by the government.  The government of Britain, that is.  This is why tax offices and and other labour intensive government offices are situated there.  These jobs were exported from the south of England to try to ease unemployment in Scotland.

Who will employ these people when England, understandably, wants to employ English staff in English locations?  Sean Connery?

Another small point - will they pay England back a proportion of the £440 million their ludicrously expensive parliament building cost?  Indeed, would the notoriously parsimonious Scots have ever built such a costly building if it was their own money they were spending?  (There are only 5 million of them)   

I count myself Scottish.  I've never lived there for any significant length of time and never want to, independent or not.

Patrick

 

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Patmobile"]

 Indeed, would the notoriously parsimonious Scots [/quote]

And the French are all arrogant sellers of onions.   The English all wear pinstripe suits.  Black men have all got huge appendages.

This "debate" just goes on getting better.   What a lot of bitterness people have in them, and how easily it comes out when one feels oneself to be in the majority.  

[Motorhead]

Danny

Well it's because a truly independent Scotland might be ..........well...........errr.......exciting.

Pat

Civil service jobs were not sent to places like Scotland, Wales and Geordieland through altruism. The notoriously parsimonious government was unwilling to pay wages comensurate with home counties accomodation costs. Independence need not necesseraly change things. Just think of it as an outsourced Indian call centre that actually works.

Ron

I was never really in the fosse businiess. It's just that I know enough about  microbiology to smell a rat when I .......err...... smell one. Still got my pile of stones in Allier but currently I'm in York writing up my Phd in the vain hope that it might get me a job sweeping French floors.

Rumzi

Chin up. That's my gal.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="RumziGal"]

Been through this before, Benjamin.   My "landlady" is 24.   Left school at 18, got her degree in 3 years, started earning, and here's her house.   21-year-old niece has just bought a house with her boyfriend, no degrees involved anywhere, not even A-levels.  Loads of young people (mid-20s) at work, they've all got their own houses.   

It's probably true of London, but London's a capital city, and you would expect it to be expensive, just as Paris is more expensive than la France Profonde.

[/quote]

Good luck to your landlady. Worked for less than three years, repaid her student loans and got together enough money for a deposit on a property that's large enough to have letting rooms.

Same goes for your niece and her boyfriend.

My mid-thirties single son hasn't been so fortunate. He's never had a high enough paying job to be able to get a mortgage. The type of social housing that would suit him all seems to be occupied by single young mums who all lived at home before they got pregnant but as  soon as the first baby arrives they desperately need housing.

The type of mid-terrace property that would suit him has all been purchased as  buy to let  for second incomes and property speculation and he's now priced out of that sector. As for immigrants, and my comments weren't aimed at them, but how easy it seems for them to be given social housing.

There's often talk of various "disaffected" groups of minorities in the UK; maybe it's time the UK government started to look at their own.

Where do you rent? Hull?

[Patmobile]

[quote user="Motorhead"]

Civil service jobs were not sent to places like Scotland, Wales and Geordieland through altruism. The notoriously parsimonious government was unwilling to pay wages comensurate with home counties accomodation costs. Independence need not necesseraly change things. Just think of it as an outsourced Indian call centre that actually works.

[/quote]

Goodness gracious me, I think you're right!

Patrick

[AnOther]

I work offshore from Aberdeen so you can imagine there are a lot of Scots out there and it has to be said that when you get right down to it it's hard to find many who don't have some sort of chip on their shoulder about the English. I well remember when devolution was in progress that there were some who were utterly convinced that it would lead to the English being expelled from Scotland and that in itself was sufficient reason for them to vote SNP. Unfortunately though I fear that the SNP have a very poor grasp on fiscal reality and play on outright bigotry and hatred for much of their support, sadly too many Scots are taken in by it.

At devolution the Scots were promised, amongst other things, free university education and free health care for the aged, neither of which were properly costed and so the devolved government are now faced with having to seriously backpeddle on their pledges.

As for the oil, well most Scots will doubtless argue that it belongs to Scotland but the truth is it's in international waters and rightfully belongs to the oil companies who have paid untold millions both for the licences to prospect and in investment in exploitaion, a good proportion of which profits the Scottish. The mere fact that some of it lands in Scotland by pipeline is however nothing more than an incidental operational convenience and something which could (and would) be changed if it proved neccessary.

Somebody earlier made a comment about the Scots being "parsimonious" but I think you'll find that this reputation is more historic than factual and that the average Scot is equally, or even deeper in debt, that their English cousins.

[AnOther]

Sorry, double post, deleted !

[Tag]

Civil Service jobs need to be spread round the country. Why waste taxpayers money by situating them all in the SE?

[springbank]

The SNP would have to rid Scotland of the dreaded MIDGE before any scot would head for home. I'm pretty sure that this is the main reason that most of us have moved here and what ever anyone says, if you come from the west coast NOTHING compares anywhere in the world.

It would seem that as usual the english have lots to say and many may be in fear of the old alliance! (Heard that Sarkozy phoned Alex Salmond before old Tony got the call).

Slainte, Haimish and all the bairns

 

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="RumziGal"]What a lovely debate!   Try replacing "Scot" with "Asian" and see how it sounds.  [:)]  [/quote]

Well, let's see.  Most Scots are white, not brown.  Asia is not a country, but a continent.  Scotland and most of Asia have a completely different relation to England historically.  Russethouse said something.  Hmmmm.

Nope, sorry, can't replace Scot with Asian, any more than I can replace apples with oranges.  Makes no sense, except logically.

And besides, an independent Scotland would make a bit more sense when they have an independent football team and Rugby team .... at the least.  Vive a Europe of small countries and difference. 

Actually, Scotland would make a nice wee country.  About the same population as Denmark, Bosnia and Herzogovina, Croatia, bigger than Georgia, Norway and Costa Rica, and a bit smaller than Bulgaria, Finland, Israel, Laos, Nicaragua Paraguay and Slovenia.  Some respectable countries in their league.

[RumziGal]

[quote user="TreizeVents"]Well, let's see.  Most Scots are white, not brown.  Asia is not a country, but a continent.  Scotland and most of Asia have a completely different relation to England historically.  [/quote]

So?   In a multicultural society, how come politically correct lefties would never say "Asians go home" but feel at perfect liberty to say "Scots go home"?   

I really don't get that.   

Scotland is such a small and insignificant country.   I really, truly can't see why the English feel so threatened by it.   It's very strange and not entirely healthy.   But there, it's nice to have someone to blame, non?  [:D] 

[cooperlola]

As a politically correct lefty I would say that neither is acceptable, Rumzi.

[Russethouse]

So?   In a multicultural society, how come politically correct lefties would never say "Asians go home" but feel at perfect liberty to say "Scots go home"?   

I really don't get that.   

Scotland is such a small and insignificant country.   I really, truly can't see why the English feel so threatened by it.   It's very strange and not entirely healthy.   But there, it's nice to have someone to blame, non?   

I think you have come to some rather imaginative conclusions.

Who says 'Scots go home'? Asking if you would go back to Scotland if it became independent is a completely different scenario. There just may be Scots who would welcome the challenge and 'adventure' of building a new order in the land of their birth.

I certainly do not feel threatened by Scotland either - however as we get to a position where we  probably have a Scottish Prime Minister and at least one other senior minister with constituencies in Scotland and their constituents and sometimes their families are enjoying benefits or otherwise, courtesy of another elected body, I suspect that people who live in England will begin to question the system and it is probably healthy for democracy that they do.

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="RumziGal"]

So?   In a multicultural society, how come politically correct lefties would never say "Asians go home" but feel at perfect liberty to say "Scots go home"?   

Scotland is such a small and insignificant country.   I really, truly can't see why the English feel so threatened by it.   It's very strange and not entirely healthy.   But there, it's nice to have someone to blame, non?  [:D] 

[/quote]

Sorry, we must have misunderstood.  I have never heard a "lefty" in my life say that Scots should go home.  Have you? 

What I read some 15 years ago or more, is that for the first time in many decades more Scots were going back to Scotland than leaving.  I don't think anyone told them to.  I think they just figured it out all by themselves.

And I must say, I am not famliiar with English people being threatened by Scotland.  Not sure what you mean.  Usually people go on about how much the Scots are feeling inferior (or used to), or want to beat the English at sports.   I am not sure the English care all that much about Scotland.  I guess I have not heard anyone "blame" the Scots for anything either.

Funny what different realities we inhabit. 

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="RumziGal"]

Scotland is such a small and insignificant country.   I really, truly can't see why the English feel so threatened by it.     [:D] 

[/quote]

 Not threatened at all its just that in relation to its size and population it does have a huge impact on England with its Ministers and MPs.

 Scotland has a lot of parliamentary seats at Westminster, if Scottish MPs were booted out of Westminster it would upset the balance of power towards the right as few tories would lose their seats, maybe that is why the current HMG is concerned?

Maybe the answer is to make Scotland,  Wales and N. Ireland just one constituency each at Westminster given that they all have their own Parliamenta nd MPs now. Mind you didn't the Tories suggest that?  Do you think that maybe because it could even perhaps give them a majority[:P]

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

however as we get to a position where we  probably have a Scottish Prime Minister and at least one other senior minister with constituencies in Scotland and their constituents and sometimes their families are enjoying benefits or otherwise, courtesy of another elected body, I suspect that people who live in England will begin to question the system and it is probably healthy for democracy that they do.

[/quote]

What can I say, except that nothing is ever that simple.   Many English people move to Scotland to benefit from free personal care for the elderly (among other things).    The border between the two countries is actually open in both directions, and is well used in both directions.    So Scottish constituencies have English voters in them.

My point, I suppose, is that this MP business is only a small part of a larger entanglement, and is not much more than a Daily Mail headline (an English Daily Mail, of course, because the Mail in Scotland wouldn't say these things for fear of losing its readership!).      

[Benjamin]

[quote user="RumziGal"]

  Many English people move to Scotland to benefit from free personal care for the elderly (among other things).   

[/quote]

You're starting to sound like a Daily Mail headline writer.

Where's you basis in fact for this statement?

[RumziGal]

You sound like you don't believe it?  

[Benjamin]

I try only to deal in facts, not soundbites.

[RumziGal]

Whatever.   In 2004, 12% of Edinburgh's population was English-born.

Some English people move to Scotland.   Some Scottish people move to England.

I don't see the problem.    Those Scottish MPs you complain about are serving English people too.

It's what being a union is all about.

[Russethouse]

Those Scottish MPs are serving constituents who are currently getting a different deal for their tax pound than those in England. With Alex Salmond at the helm of the Scottish assembly (if that indeed becomes the case) I suspect the differences are likely to increase.

Those in English constituencies may not be too thrilled by that - it  really is not about the individual nationality of constituents AFAIAC.

[Chief]

[quote user="RumziGal"]

Whatever.   In 2004, 12% of Edinburgh's population was English-born.

Some English people move to Scotland.   Some Scottish people move to England.

I don't see the problem.    Those Scottish MPs you complain about are serving English people too.

It's what being a union is all about.

[/quote]

I am lost...how does this support your statement that they are moving because of free medical care for the elderly?????  Or has that soundbite been retracted???

[RumziGal]

I retract nothing.    People move in both directions over the border, for many reasons, one of which is personal care.  

You all sound very bitter about the situation.  You could always move to Scotland if it's so good.  [:)]

[Benjamin]

Here is an extract of information taken from the Scottish Neighbour Statistics page of the General Register Office Site for Scotland web site.

Broadly speaking, migrant flows in and out

of Scotland in recent years have been 80,000+ in each direction (50,000+

migrating to or from other parts of the UK and 30,000+ to and from the rest of

the world). The level of net migration can be significantly affected by

relatively small changes in these gross flows from year to year, particularly

if one flow rises while the other falls.

Of course, all statistics are open to interpretation and different pieces of information can be manipulated, but at least these are provable figures.

[Motorhead]

I think a wee bit of history is in order here.

Three hundred years ago there was a union of the 2 parliaments which was aided by a previous union of the crowns due to the fact that the English monarchy could no longer reproduce. The English wanted the union because A) they saw Scotland as the source of a new catholic monarchy and B) they could do with the cannon fodder for their expanding empire. This was proved correct by the Jacobite rebellions of 1715 and 1745 and their aftermath which saw the creation of Scottish regiments that were promptly sent as far away as possible abroad.

The Scots accepted the union because A) the movers and shakers were paid off with large amounts of money, B) the proles saw that there was a bit of money to be made in the new empire and C) the country was skint after the Darien fiasco.

For the next 200 years or more whenever and wherever there were fuzzy-wuzzies needing masacred or slaves needing whipped they sent out the guys in the kilts. Some of them did extremely well. The Jardines and the Mathiesons made a fortune out in Hong Kong by suppling the Chinese with class A narcotics. Although this sort of behaviour would get a minimum of 10 years in the chokey these days, back then it had the full support of the British government if not the Chinese one.

The biggest objection that I have to the union is that it has brought out the worst in the Scots and Scotland.

Even after the empire was effectively finished the notion continued that if you wanted success then the best thing about Scotland was the road out. This led to depopulation especially in the rural areas with the vacuum being filled by "white settlers" from England. The island village where I grew up is now an English retirement ghetto that I just don't recognise as being the same place anymore.

I really think that independence is the only way to address this problem.

As for the notion that England  is being run by a Scots mafia the English already had their chance to be on the same footing with the proposed regional assemblies that were rejected so I really don't see how folk can moan about it now. TB (if I make him sound like a disease then it's purely intentional) never envisaged the Scottish and Welsh assemblies as national ones they were to be regional assemblies the same as Northumbria or Mercia would have been and there is a tradition of trying out new things such as the poll tax on the celtic fringe.

If the SNP has managed to turn the assembly to their advantage then power to them.