This has really, really, really hacked me off.

[valB]

Dog, I am sure most people think the war is a waste of time but as long as our lads are being sent there and are being killed for the privalige  that is why people want to have them marching to a band as a big sign of respect. Yes, I am sure they have lots of other things to do and unlike a lot of young men in UK do not sit on the dole watching TV and mugging people. I appreciate you have a point of view but please be a litle more sensitive to others on this forum who are more involved in the situation. My Granddaughters husband is out there and she is six months pregnant with their first child and lives in constant fear of " that knock on the door ". He was on  a patrol that killed two of his  friends so I think  a march and a band is the least they can expect.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Dog, I'm sure that the relatives of those killed from the 2nd Battalion Anglicans would be pleased to discuss your obnoxious views with you.

Haven't you got something to do better than keep coming on here and being an arse?

[valB]

I must admit, Dog, I have noticed a lot of your comments on various other sections of this forum. No one expects you to agree with every point of view and that would be boring as we like a debat but you do seem hell bent on offending people at times. Are you so bored with your life that is the only way you can generate any form of excitement. Please participate but in a more genial way.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Dog"]

I think it is deliberately provocative for soldiers to march in public with a band.

It is obvious that most people are against this useless war and to taunt the people that have to pay for it is a smack in the face.

How do they find time the to waste marching about haven't they got something better to do?

[/quote]

I can't find fault in your second sentence but the rest of it is rubbish.

Its not the military that decided to get involved its the politicians and if you have a problem then you should take it up with them. What I think is a shame is that the military are not as big or powerful as they were. The labour government has been chipping away at their budget for years. Young lads being sent to Iraq without proper equipment or the equipment they get is so bad they have to go and buy the proper kit out of their own pocket.

I am afraid I look at their marching from a different angle and perhaps in the same way as others. I think it reminds us of the sacrifices made by those courageous and gallant lads because of an incompetent government. It keeps 'Joe Public' focused on whats going on. Its also a way for the soldiers to thank the ordinary people for their support under difficult conditions. These are the people along with their predecessors who have been there in the past to protect and defend your freedom, without them you would not enjoy the life you now have.

I, and I suspect thousands if not millions of Brits do not find it in any way or form provocative for them to March in public. Personally I think your way out of synce with what the public thinks but then reading your past posts you seem to have a much different view on life that normal people. Thats your right and I respect that but don't go round making comments that offend others, keep them to yourself.

 

[DerekJ]

[quote user="Dog"]

I think it is deliberately provocative for soldiers to march in public with a band.

It is obvious that most people are against this useless war and to taunt the people that have to pay for it is a smack in the face.

How do they find time the to waste marching about haven't they got something better to do?

[/quote]

Are you, by the same token, against the respect given in Wootton Bassett when the dead bodies of the colleagues of these service personnel are returned to the UK via RAF Lyneham?

I guess they could just be zoomed off in a transit van to their final destination.

[Russethouse]

Derek, I was just going to post the same. -

Dog: whatever the rights and wrongs of the war the fact is that the soldiers are there because the government  that was elected by the British people, asked them to go, they are doing the job millions of us are not brave enough or do not want to do. A parade is a very small token of appreciation

If people don't like it why not just stay away ?

I wasn't in favor of going into Iraq or Afghanistan, but I wouldn't protest in that way, wrong target.

[Frederick]

  Derek  Thanks for the U tube link .... I dont recall seeing in the past a clip showing such anger against a group of Muslims in a UK street....you can feel the anger...feel the hate ...From the movement of the Police lines they were certainly not expecting such a reaction from the ordinary folk of Luton..they were caught out there  and look unsure how to react ! ..It was only the respect shown for the thin line of  Uniforms between them that stopped a very ugly situation for the Muslims ..If the crowd had got hold of them it would have got very bad and could have spread onto other streets with a large Muslim reaction ... .If our Polititions  have not watched that U Tube clip yet then they should be made to and start to worry and plan how to act in future ....And the Muslims .... time to shut up and keep their heads down they have pushed their views to the limit now I think   The  BNP must be loving this...new members by the score today .

[powerdesal]

Dog,

You and I have disagreed on things in the past and, once again.  You appear to either have a very jaundiced attitude or you are deliberately being provocative to stimulate the continuation of the thread.

If it is the former then you really are a sad deluded individual with a totally insensitive nature and a serious lack of knowledge, about the Military, about the British public feeling for their Military and about the general feelings of those involved in the present wars.

Let me try, in a small way, to further your education. When a person is in the Military Forces they do not get to pick and choose where they are sent to fight or to live. The Military do not have any say at all, other than at very senior officer level. You go when and where told or refuse and go to jail, that is the contract.

Almost without exception the serving soldiers, sailors and airmen do not want to go to war, its dangerous, uncomfortable and very messy. They prefer, no doubt like you, to be at home with their wives, girlfriends, parents, children or whatever. They too have their opinions about the legality or need for the present conflicts but they are professional enough to fulfill their contract. They, in turn, expect and deserve the support and respect of those that have sent them to war. That means everyone in UK because it is the UK people, in the form of the elected Govt who have ordered them to go in harms way.

If the people of UK do not want to use the British Forces in Afghanistan or Iraq then they have the democratic right and freedom to pressure their Govt. The Military cannot use those rights and freedoms, its called mutiny and leads to long jail time. In short, they fight and die to protect those freedoms for others to enjoy.

Historically, the British public have always fully supported their Armed Forces - as they should, and as most still do. The presence of a minority of anti British, anti Forces people is not acceptable. Those who have such an attitude should either keep very very quiet or leave UK for a country more to their liking.

The recent demonstrations and comments are a gross insult to the Forces themselves but particularly to their families and most certainly to the memory of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in the service of the British people, thats the British people not the British Govt.

It is possibly difficult for you to fully understand and appreciate the depth of feeling experienced by those of us who have served, are serving or who have family members serving when insults are arbitrarily made. Hence my post title when I started this thread.

[DerekJ]

[quote user="puzzled"]

Ordinary folk of Luton? 

If this video clip is a reflection of "ordinary folk", I'm glad I am out of the UK.

I thought it showed the so called indigenous population in a worse light than the protestors.

[/quote]

What would you do? Turn the other cheek?  No, time the worm turned

[Frederick]

  Its as well the indigenous population of Luton had not taken any lessons from the Paris on how to react when things upset them or there would streets littered with burning cars......Ordinary folk of Paris and other French towns when they demonstrate make you feel happier to live with do they  Puzzled ... you like the smell of tear gas do you ?

[valB]

I do not understand the folk in the UK, if you are all against the war in Afghanistan why are you ALL sitting on your backsides and moaning. For a country that is almost on its uppers can they really support the billions this war is costing.  For goodness sake have the gumption to make a stand or if not  stop all the whinging.

[WJT]

[quote user="powerdesal"]Dog,

You and I have disagreed on things in the past and, once again.  You appear to either have a very jaundiced attitude or you are deliberately being provocative to stimulate the continuation of the thread.

If it is the former then you really are a sad deluded individual with a totally insensitive nature and a serious lack of knowledge, about the Military, about the British public feeling for their Military and about the general feelings of those involved in the present wars.

Let me try, in a small way, to further your education. When a person is in the Military Forces they do not get to pick and choose where they are sent to fight or to live. The Military do not have any say at all, other than at very senior officer level. You go when and where told or refuse and go to jail, that is the contract.
Almost without exception the serving soldiers, sailors and airmen do not want to go to war, its dangerous, uncomfortable and very messy. They prefer, no doubt like you, to be at home with their wives, girlfriends, parents, children or whatever. They too have their opinions about the legality or need for the present conflicts but they are professional enough to fulfill their contract. They, in turn, expect and deserve the support and respect of those that have sent them to war. That means everyone in UK because it is the UK people, in the form of the elected Govt who have ordered them to go in harms way.

If the people of UK do not want to use the British Forces in Afghanistan or Iraq then they have the democratic right and freedom to pressure their Govt. The Military cannot use those rights and freedoms, its called mutiny and leads to long jail time. In short, they fight and die to protect those freedoms for others to enjoy.

Historically, the British public have always fully supported their Armed Forces - as they should, and as most still do. The presence of a minority of anti British, anti Forces people is not acceptable. Those who have such an attitude should either keep very very quiet or leave UK for a country more to their liking.

The recent demonstrations and comments are a gross insult to the Forces themselves but particularly to their families and most certainly to the memory of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in the service of the British people, thats the British people not the British Govt.

It is possibly difficult for you to fully understand and appreciate the depth of feeling experienced by those of us who have served, are serving or who have family members serving when insults are arbitrarily made. Hence my post title when I started this thread.
[/quote]

Very well said Powerdesal and couldn't agree more.

I can only imagine how some of those ordinary folk in the crowd must have felt particularly those there supporting a family member or worse, those that were there perhaps in memory of a loved one must have felt being confronted in that way. [:(]

[Renaud]

I remember John Reid, then Minister of Defence remarking as he sent the first British troops of to Afganistan that he doubted that they would ever have to fire a shot.

How can our troops fight a war if nobody knows why they are there? What is the outcome hoped for? Can it be achieved?

[just john]

I personally abhor any war and the amount the exchequer spends on our Troop deployments;
however I do not underestimate the need for them, particular when associated with the drug problem that has pervaded our society and indirectly affects everyone of us; whether it be directly with the crime rate of petty burglary or the bigger picture of damage to society. I wonder if the same people who believe the Taliban are no threat to us, underestimate the association they have with the poppy trade and their concerted efforts to continue this trade.

 The greater threat as Lord Ashdown pointed out  "I believe losing in Afghanistan is worse than losing in Iraq. It will mean that Pakistan will fall and it will have serious implications internally for the security of our own countries and will instigate a wider Shiite [Shia], Sunni regional war on a grand scale. Some people refer to the First and Second World Wars as European civil wars and I think a similar regional civil war could be initiated by this [failure] to match this magnitude."

 The least we could do would be to understand the situation and support the troops, if anything more is required.

Army-cant-win-in-Afghanistan-without-reinforcements-says-commander.

The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. Albert Einstein.

 

 

[woolybanana]

I suspect that those who are of Dog's opinion would have appeased Hitler too.

He sounds more like Outie every day.

[WJT]

I think that is a bit unfair. I do very much so disagree with Dog on this issue but I think he is just a very passionate person myself.[:)]

Well said JustJohn.

[Dog]

 

The people that chose to become paid killers for the country did have a choice - they did not have to join.

Sadly in UK and USA for instance there is such little chance of any or reasonably paid employment especially in some areas of the country that young men who think in the foolishness of youth it is adventurous, and join the forces as it pays well - they have a 'career structure' - they don't have to think too much  and get fed and a bed and a good pension.

Sadly it is too late for many when they realise what they are expected to do for the rich monarchs shilling and seem to forget history as in the the previous century monarchs sent millions of innocents to certain death as the monarchs played a game of living chess with their relatives and the blood of their citizens.

The money that has been wasted on war is criminal. Last year it cost everyone in UK £6,000.

The money would be better spent in the UK or on helping building a better Afghanistan.

I  also think one of the forgotten waste of money is the way Officers in the UK forces get wined and dined on tax payers money - they live like - well - very very well to ensure complete obedience to the monarch.

Get real the purpose of the army is not to produce anything but death and destruction!

 

[Russethouse]

 I also think that it may be possible that Arabic speaking people in the British Isles may just have a little more idea of what may be happening than that which we read in the UK press and their anger /mistrust may be justified ?

How many of those people were born in the UK and get their news of the situation via their religious leaders who tell them what suits them, rather in the way the press does.

Yes, people have free speech, but isn't there a more appropriate and effective way to use it ?

[Clair]

The moderators have removed a post from this thread.

[valB]

Dog,

PAID KILLERS !!!!! We have always had the armed forces and thank goodness we did in the first and second wold wars otherwise you would not be sat there now with your smug pathetic attitude. My youngest son is a Royal Marine and has fought in Iraq and Afghanistan and NOT beacause that was the only job he could do. He left school with ten GCSE's and then college with two A levels but still wanted to join the service.  He is now a sergeant and very well repected and like all the armed forces are there to help keep the likes of an idiot like you safe in this sad world we live in. You really are a most offensive person and I would suggest that unless your comments are constructive that you should refrain from entering into any discussion.  I sincerely hope that one day you do not need these Paid Killers to protect you, your family or your home as then they will be our brilliant servicemen to people  like you. You have made me so angry, Dog, your attitude truly stinks/

[Clair]

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[Frederick]

He does it all the time just to wind people up...take no notice ...If you said you liked the colour of London busses he would reply  red is agressive and they all should be painted white !

Winding people up is what he gets off on   ..sad .

[Quillan]

The irony of it is is that because of the armed forces these people enjoy the freedom to stand up and make these comments. As to their claims, well it beggars belief and now on TV tonight (ITV News) some spokesperson has said that there would be no problem and nobody would have got upset if non Muslims stood up and made the same comments. What are these people on, drugs?

[Dog]

I find it incredible that you ignore reality - I call them paid killers you call them defenders that kill enemies to look after me?

It doesn't matter how many O levels or degrees you have if there are no real jobs testosterone fueled lads will join the army or become thugs elsewhere.

Why is is that the only thing the English can agree about is war?

You have been sold lie after lie and you now believe it.

I do wonder about the amount of ex-service people, policemen and civil servants who take their early retirement and index linked pensions and vote with their feet by moving abroad to places like France.

Using hi-tech weapons against backwoodsmen in Afghanistan is hardy courageous. Do the Afghans have airplanes, helicopters, night vision, cluster bombs etc etc etc.  It's hardly heroic to wipeout hundreds of people with computer guided weapons.

Give me a 5th of the budget and 50 consciencious objectors and the problem could be solved.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Dog"]

I find it incredible that you ignore reality - I call them paid killers you call them defenders that kill enemies to look after me?

It doesn't matter how many O levels or degrees you have if there are no real jobs testosterone fueled lads will join the army or become thugs elsewhere.

Why is is that the only thing the English can agree about is war?

You have been sold lie after lie and you now believe it.

I do wonder about the amount of ex-service people, policemen and civil servants who take their early retirement and index linked pensions and vote with their feet by moving abroad to places like France.

Using hi-tech weapons against backwoodsmen in Afghanistan is hardy courageous. Do the Afghans have airplanes, helicopters, night vision, cluster bombs etc etc etc.  It's hardly heroic to wipeout hundreds of people with computer guided weapons.

Give me a 5th of the budget and 50 consciencious objectors and the problem could be solved.

[/quote]

Firstly the 'Forces' still offer an excellent career if it appeals,  I know a girl who was interested in sport and languages. The army backed her sporting activities and trained her in additional languages that  she now uses in the defence of our country, she was similarly qualified to ValBs son.....

You also seem to somehow link the soldiers with their deployment - they go where they are sent and do the job to the best of their ability. If the population of Britain don't like it they have to make a different choice at the election box, not shout at soldiers in the street.

Why is is that the only thing the English can agree about is war

Where were you when people marched against us going into Iraq ?  What makes you think the ' English' agree ?