Unbelieveable

[Bugsy]

Its one thing to not attack for fear of endangering the couple, but quite another to 'hide' this information from public domain.

The UK government (a loose translation) will surely have to now pay the ransom demand for this couple.

Where are the American snipers when you need them.

.

[AnOther]

To be honest BB, taking the story at face value, I think I might have pretty pi55ed off it the military HAD gone gung ho and started firing.

Historically these pirates have not physically harmed or killed their hostages and I think all have been released eventually so to put my life in jeopardy for the sake of bravado and a popularist news headline would not have been welcome.

You might however ask why they didn't do more to protect them from attack in the first place, or better still, dissuade them from sailing into the lions den.

As much as I sympathise with this couples predicament they were undoubtedly partly responsible for it but will undoubtedly be released in due course.

If the pirates escalate their game to murder then they are doomed.

PS: You edited your post as I was replying but NO, the ransom cannot and should not be paid.

[Chancer]

[quote user="AnOther"]
You might however ask why they didn't do more to protect them from attack in the first place, or better still, dissuade them from sailing into the lions den.

As much as I sympathise with this couples predicament they were undoubtedly partly responsible for it but will undoubtedly be released in due course.

[/quote]

I do hope that there loved ones dont get to read to many opinions like that.

Sailing from the Seychelles to Tanzania is a very long way from the coast of Somalia where the pirates hitherto have operated, where do you draw the line, not use the Indian ocean at all? What about the residents of Kenya, are they asking for it if they take to the seas?

As an aside I thought that it was against maritime law to refuse to aid a mariner in distress.

[nomoss]

"The replenishment tanker was carrying 75 merchant seamen and 25 Royal Navy sailors, as well as a helicopter, at the time of the incident."

When I was in the RN everyone learned to use a rifle. There should have been enough marksmen out of the 25 on board to get one pirate each, as the US, and surely there should have been some well sighted rifles aboard - not a highly priced piece of necessary equipment.

What is the point of patrolling the area if they are just going to be spectators when something actually happens?

I reckon I could have picked someone off at 15 metres. Although we used an accurate Lee-Enfield, not today's standard issue.

 

[buelligan]

The problem with governments saying that they won't pay ransoms is that they do!  They just find a way of doing it (someone wants a favour - a passport say - and "arranges" for the hostages to be released).  Most serious pirates and gangsters know this and that is one of the reasons kidnapping continues as an industry.  The rub is; what would you want or do if it were your loved ones being held?

[Quillan]

[quote user="Chancer"]

As an aside I thought that it was against maritime law to refuse to aid a mariner in distress.

[/quote]

Quite right and I quote.:

For example, the United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea ("UNCLOS") says that every signatory to the convention must require the master of a ship flying its flag to render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of being lost and to proceed to the rescue of persons in distress.

As to who signed it well I can't find the definitive list BUT...

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea was opened for signature at Montego Bay, Jamaica, on 10 December 1982. It entered into force on 14 November 1994 and is presently binding for 154 States, as well as the European Community (as of 24 July 2008). It is considered the “constitution of the oceans” and represents the result of an unprecedented, and so far never replicated, effort at codification and progressive development of international law. The more than 400 articles of the text and of the nine annexes that are an integral part of it are the most extensive and detailed product of codification activity States have ever attempted and successfully concluded under the aegis of the United Nations.

I guess if I were the family of the couple concerned and given the information in the OP's original post I think I would be looking very hard at suing the UK government (possibly the ministry of defence) for just around the same amount of money that the kidnappers are asking for. It seems to me that there is a clear breach of UN law. I do wonder if these pirates/kidnappers are a bit more intelligent than we think and know this. Perhaps the couple did a deal, half for the kidnappers and half for them. Stranger things have been known to happen and the kidnappers are asking a lot of money for such inconsequential people (in the general way of things - no disrespect intended) given they usually go after bigger vessel's with a valuable cargo.

[Chancer]

An interesting thought Quillan, especially as they were so far from Somalian waters the pirates had taken quite a risk for an apparently benign target.

So after saying that I hoped that their loved ones didnt see opinions like that I have just added to them!

Chancer, the last of a long line of hypocrites [;-)]

[Cendrillon]

AnOther said

You might however ask why they didn't do more to protect them from

attack in the first place, or better still, dissuade them from sailing

into the lions den.

As much as I sympathise with this couples

predicament they were undoubtedly partly responsible for it but will

undoubtedly be released in due course.

I believe the couple were warned not to sail in that area but carried on regardless.

[tegwini]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

Where are the American snipers when you need them.[/quote]

Or Israeli commandos who rescued nearly all of the captive, mostly Israeli citizens from Entebbe,  and one of the commandos dying too.

Can't help but admire this level of courage and determination - and concern for their citizens.

The UK government cares little for its citizens these days- it would have to have commissions, enquiries etc before such a mission.  And then do nothing.

Tegwini

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_2786000/2786967.stm

[Chancer]

When the French special forces recently stormed a pirate vessel to liberate French hostages one of them was killed in the ensuing gun battle, I think but cannot be sure that all of the pirates met their maker.

Anyway there wasnt an outcry in the French media about the regrettable collateral damage.

Would this have been the case in the UK if one or both of the couple had been injured or died during a rescue attempt?

I reckon that te decision to do nothing must have sickened the Navy guys on board.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Chancer"]

....... where do you draw the line, not use the Indian ocean at all?

[/quote]

I had to look it up in the 'Notices to Mariners' and basically the answer is yes. There is more than one place/country the 'pirates' operate from apparently.

[powerdesal]

Please will you 'gung-ho' people get real.

Imagine trying a shot from a firing position that is moving up, down and probably sideways, at a target that is also moving up, down and sideways and probably forwards as well.

The RN members on an RFA are not trained snipers, they are no better with weapons than any other military trained person. To be fair, even a trained and practised sniper fires from a stable firing point.

The consequences of a bad shot could be (a) dead hostage, (b) dead pirate and hostages subsequently murdered, (c) total miss and hostages subsequently murdered.

[Chancer]

I did think that as well Steve, that is why they would usually hose down the ship with a gatling gun to stand any chance of hitting anyone (including the hostages) but the guy did say that he was trained and could hit a pirate at 15 metres.

And of course we all know what American snipers are capable of from Hollywood [Www]

[powerdesal]

Of course he was trained, on a 20 m range at a Fig 11 paper target from the prone position.

I certainly wouldn't like the shot and I can (and have) put 10 consecutive rounds through a 1 inch hole with an iron sights non self loading SA80 on a demo shoot. Needless to say neither I nor the target were moving at all.

[Chancer]

Just a tireur de Dimanche then [6] could you do the same when bien arrosé with Pastis?

This calls for Steven Seagal I reckon

[brianagain]

During my 22 years in the RN I certainly learned to fire a rifle but quite frankly I was rubbish at it and suspect that many others in my trade (aircraft engineer) were not much better. A very small percentage did well enough to qualify for a marksman's badge. As Steve says the circumstances were far from perfect for any attempt to take out all the pirates. IMHO the Master of the RFA, who would bear ultimate responsibility for any fatal conseqences, acted correctly in seeking to not endanger the lives of the couple whatever others who were not present may think.

Brian (again)

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Just a tireur de Dimanche then [6] could you do the same when bien arrosé with Pastis?

This calls for Steven Seagal I reckon

[/quote]

Yes...........and no [:)]

[Frederick]

What are the Navy instructed to do when on patrol in those waters they come on pirates. An open boat with a couple of powerful outboards and big drums of fuel enough to keep them far out at sea for days . Guys armed on board ... what else are they out there for but to take a ship. so why is this still going on ?. If these guys went out to sea and never came back because over the horizon they were picked up and carted off or sunk if they resisted . ...I think the ones left on shore would be scared to go out of sight of their harbour .

[Bugsy]

Interesting how this thread has developed. No one who wasn't actually there at the time can really comment on the action (or lack of it) that was taken.

My main point is that the fact that the navy was there has been hidden from the public. Their original statement was that the yacht was found drifting with no one aboard. Something that was totally untrue.

None of this would have come to light if one of the people aboard the naval vessel had not 'spilled the beans'

The comment about the americans and movies is silly given the fact that in a previous encounter three american snipers (bobbing around in a small boat), on being given the order to fire, shot dead three pirates in one quick moment.

No 'movies' involved there.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Bugbear"]The comment about the americans and movies is silly given the fact that in a previous encounter three american snipers (bobbing around in a small boat), on being given the order to fire, shot dead three pirates in one quick moment. No 'movies' involved there.[/quote]

 

Totally agree, bl**dy good shooting. They were SEALS as I recall. I imagine some of 'them' from Hereford could equally have done the same.

[Quillan]

I don't know why everyone assumes you have to shoot at the pirates. With many years of sailing I can tell you that a boat with holes in it does not stay afloat very long. I would have thought that might be a bit obvious to the navy guys especially as the pirates were some distance from their base. The yacht was a lot bigger than a person and less difficult to miss.

[buelligan]

...and only the evil-doers will drown..?[8-)]

[Chancer]

[quote user="Quillan"]I don't know why everyone assumes you have to shoot at the pirates. With many years of sailing I can tell you that a boat with holes in it does not stay afloat very long. I would have thought that might be a bit obvious to the navy guys especially as the pirates were some distance from their base. The yacht was a lot bigger than a person and less difficult to miss.[/quote]

Quillan as always the humorous voice of reason [:D]

However I cant accept that Quillan, these same Hollywood heros can also open fire with a machine gun inside a pressurised aircraft cabin without putting any holes in it.

Another stupid comment BB but did you expect any different from me?

[Quillan]

Well given that it was a fibreglass boat then half a dozen shots should do the trick and as the navy were there they could pick up all the people without them being hurt. Unless the odd shark was passing of course or the pirates decided to go down with the yacht which I doubt. Unless there was a gale blowing then its not a difficult target and being that you would be firing from an elevated position and the yacht is not exactly a fast boat, personally I don't think it that difficult.