The Impôts giveth and the Impôts taketh away

[Lehaut]

Got our reminder email this morning that our Tax D'Habitations are due in December. Our main house is for sale and we have bought a flat to move into. On the opening page in the appropriate section there were no amounts shown due for either property!

Opened the detailed page for the main house, and unexpectedly a big fat 0 was indicated. A saving of neary 500€.

I opened the page for the flat. Being classed a maison secondaire at the moment, no rebate shown and a less than welcome sum of 1850€ due.

Hopefully when we have sold the main house, the sum due for the flat will also fall to a big fat 0 (we hope).

[Patf]

Such a contrast!

Is the extra for a maison secondaire a recent law?

I remember a year or 2 ago they said they were going to make big changes to the Taxe  Hab.  In fact I thought they were going to stop it altogether.

[NormanH]

The TH is being phased out over 3 years; 30% this year;30% next year; and the rest in 2020 ....BUT  for the moment it only applies to principal residences, and there is also an income limit, so those above a certain sum don't benefit.

Wily Maires in holiday areas have taken the opportunity to increase the tax on second homes, in some cases by a  considerable amount.

Even for those who are exonerated in some areas the tax has been put up so much that even with 30% off this year some people are actually paying more than before.

This won't be the case of course when the tax is finally abolished.

[Gardian]

Yes ........ to be fair, its not the Impots, but (as Norman has pointed out) in quite rare cases, the Communes.

Here in the Gard, there are just 7 or so Communes (out of 353!) which have bumped up their ‘take’. Ours has increased the Commune element for TH & TF by 25% (8% up to 10%) & 41% (5% up to 7%) respectively and accordingly I am currently in ‘snottogram’ exchange with our Maire.

She says “Its only a 2 points increase”, I say “You don’t understand the maths”.

I won’t win of course, because its already a ‘done deed’, and was voted for mid-year by the Conseil. Thus, I end up with a not insignificant & unexpected yearend liability.

With all due respect to most in the Commune, they’ll feel happy because Macron has reduced their TH liability by 30%, but they don’t realise that their bill would have been even less if the Commune hadn’t bumped up their ‘take’.

I have asked the Maire whether there’s a financial issue in the Commune which has brought about this (quite concealed) hike in the Commune elements. So far, a deafening silence !!

Awaiting a reply with interest.

[nomoss]

Lehaut.

I don't know if at applies in your case, but during the period between buying our next house and selling the previous one, we got a certificate from the Marie stating that the "new" house was empty of furniture and uninhabitable, so avoiding being billed for TDH until we moved in a year later, and did the same via the Mairie in our "old" village, avoiding paying TDH on that until we sold it, another year later.

[Lehaut]

nomoss, thanks for the info/idea. We bought the flat two years ago and restored it, so both dwellings are habitable.

[EuroTrash]

"I have asked the Maire whether there’s a financial issue in the Commune which has brought about this (quite concealed) hike in the Commune elements. So far, a deafening silence !! "

I imagine it's quite simply a question of maths.

The commune needs XXXk euros to cover its annual budget.

If it collects 25% less from a large proportion of the residents, then clearly it will have a shortfall.

The maires have had robust discussions with Macron about this and Macron has made noises about helping them out but AFAIK nothing concrete.

So the question is, if Macron doesn't come up with the goods, what will happen in those communes that didn't increase the tax and therefore can't cover their next year's budget? Will they cut back on services or will they take out a loan and will they have to increase the tax even more the following year, to pay back the loan? I'm actually quite glad that my commune did implement an increase.

[NormanH]

Macron guaranteed that the loss would be compensated euro for euro, although the mechanism isn't clear.

In any case at the end of the third year there won't be any TH as far as the large majority of people are concerned, so as I said above the strategy of raising the tax can only be short-term.

Again as I have said before the shortfall may well be made up by a re-calculation of the valeur locatif  on which the TF are based and which is very out of date.

An owner occupier might find there there is no TH to pay but the TF doubles.

More broadly it is a question of clipping the wings of some  Maires  who have sometimes been responsible for highly-expensive projects at taxpayers' expense. Montpellier under Georges Frêche was a case in point.

Whether this taking away of spending power from local level is good democratically is of course a moot point...

[EuroTrash]

Macron made the right noises but the mechanisms AFAIK are still not clear and AFAIK the mayors are still not satisfied. Part of Macron's plan for "compensation" seemed to involve rewards for improved efficiency - which although it sounds good in theory, and as you say some mayors need it, it wasn't felt acceptable overall because in practice it penalises communes that are already run efficiently because they can't really get more efficient, whereas inefficient communes have plenty of scope to show improvement and get the rewards.

I suspect the tax raising strategy will be long term and we will just have to get used to higher taxes than in the past.

[Gardian]

ET .......

I understand your thinking from your earlier post, but what we don’t know is how the funding is working just now.

From the TdH facture, our Commune is simply increasing its ‘take’ from 8% to 10%. Thus it could be that it is simply taking an opportunity to craftily get in a few more euros (€35k actually, so not insignificant), or its to make up a reduced income from elsewhere (it could only be the Departement).

My point in all this is around communication. At year start, we were told that TdH was going to reduce by 30% and we were exorted to reduce our prelevements once we’d plugged our details in to the simulateur. I did and (I now realise naively) reduced my prelevement accordingly.

At some point in time in the Spring, our Conseil voted for these increases, but didn’t tell anybody. If I’d been told in May that they were going to do it (and why, although that would have made sfa difference), then it wouldn’t have been a surprise.

Now that I’m in to this, it has almost become a crusade, I now find that this year’s big capital spend project has been an extension to the cemetary. Its done and they’ve made a beautiful job of it too. However ........ the cost was €250k or so, with just 60 additional ‘plots’ at €500 each. Doesn’t seem like the most financially prudent project in these difficult times!

I’m not really against the cemetary, or much else really. I just want to be told what’s happening and for the Conseil not to assume that they can do what they like without keeping everybody informed. In short, no surprises.

[NormanH]

There is much to be said on both sides [:D]

On the one hand local representatives are supposed to be answerable to the local electorate and it it could be argued that taking away their revenue by abolishing the Td'H which they can raise is anti-democratic because it is centralising power

On the other hand having seen the sort of bullying cronyism and 'pork barrel' antics by which certain Maires have bought and kept themselves in power that might be no bad thing either.

..

[EuroTrash]

The conseil general doesn't tend to send letters round every household but they don't keep things secret, the information is all accessible to anyone who is interested to know. Round here the local paper does a pretty good job, it always reports on the new tax rate without fail and everyone is on the lookout because they know when the council meets to set it, it's the same time every year. The paper usually prints a full article explaining the reasons for the increase if there is on, and usually the mayor congratulates himself on keeping it as low as possible in the circumstances, and then depending on the increase there will be more or fewer readers letters for the next few weeks. Does that not happen round your way? Any big spending plans are also reported on.

But failing that you can check the minutes of the meetings, they are always made public and some communes even pin them to the noticeboard outside the town hall. So if you're interested it's not hard to keep up, and there is certainly no need ever to wait until your bill arrives to find out the tax rate. You can even go to the conseil municipal meetings if you like, they are normally open to the public.

So although I agree the onus is on you to find out, the information is made available and I'm not sure you can blame the council if you don't avail yourself of it if you want to.

[Gardengirl]

Our TdH arrived at our home in the UK today. It included an amount for tv, which we don’t have, and I don’t remember receiving the usual opt-out letter earlier this year.

Does anyone know if something changed about the tv contribution this year, if it is now compulsory? I’ve looked up Clair’s letter to the tax people from all those years ago, but hesitated about sending it until I’m sure it’s not compulsory, but it was listed separately.

[NormanH]

I don't know about an opt-out letter. The usual system is to tick the box on the first page of the tax declaration to say that you haven't got a TV, but you may not fill that in if you aren't resident.

I found last year and the year before that even though I had ticked that  they had still charged the TV, so I had to claim it back.

I did that via my 'Espace particulier' on

https://cfspart.impots.gouv.fr/LoginMDP?op=c&url=aHR0cHM6Ly9jZnNwYXJ0LmltcG90cy5nb3V2LmZyLw==

in the part

'Nous contacter'

If you haven't got that either you should find an email addres on the top left of you TdH bill..

Those of us who don't pay because we have only a computer may  have to stump up from next year, as the exoneration is being removed and everybody with an Internet connection will have to pay apart from certain cases related to age and income:

https://www.journaldunet.fr/patrimoine/guide-des-finances-personnelles/1202025-redevance-tv-2018-exoneration-et-montant-de-la-contribution/

[Gardengirl]

Thanks for that, Norman.

Yes, being non-resident, there's usually a letter early each year on which we can opt out of paying the taxe audiovisuelle, which I assume all non-residents receive. As I mentioned, the letter didn’t arrive this year.

It did occur to me that next year’s change, with those with an internet connection having to pay, might have been applied early.

I’ve contacted our tax office fir infirmation and will report back when I hear from them.

[EuroTrash]

"It did occur to me that next year’s change, with those with an internet connection having to pay, might have been applied early."

No - I don't have a TV but I do (obviously!) have an internet connection, and I wasn't charged AV.

[NormanH]

It may be yet another case of departments and regions doing things differently.(Tax is administered by local offices)

I have now found 3 people who have been charged in Béziers despite having ticked the correct box, and GG is also in Occitanie.

[EuroTrash]

Another confusion on this, I thought the reduction was only for principal residences. So on my house, I was given the reduction calculated on income but the tax rate went up so I paid near enough the same as last year. I also pay tdh on a lockup garage that I rent for storage, this is classed as a residence secondaire I believe and it's usually a nominal amount of around 25€ a year or so, I expected that to have increased since the rate has gone up but they sent me a bill for 0€. As the title says, the impôts giveth and the impôts taketh away. Va savoir.

[NormanH]

In Béziers one has to pay for 'ordures ménagères' for a lock up  ....and there isn't even a dustbin..