The British Economy as seen from Europe

[NormanH]

There is an article (in English in this link) in yesterdays's Spiegel about the British Economy:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,683832,00.html

[Quillan]

But isn't this what some of us have been saying for over a year now?

[NormanH]

I think that article has a better view of the opposition than some posts on here :)

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Quillan"]But isn't this what some of us have been saying for over a year now?[/quote]

Well, personally, Q, for much longer than that...........

I loved these bits:

[quote]

Brown intends to correct these mistakes after the election. He conjures up a new form of industrialization, saying that up to 1.5 million highly qualified jobs could be created in the next five years in key, future-oriented industries, like biotech, renewable energy, software and the Internet. The country needs engineers, not financial jugglers, says Brown. But the way Brown puts it, it sounds like a deathbed prayer.[/quote]

Britain has no computer industry: that was presented to Hitachi/Fujitsi, by one of Thatcher's heroes: Peter Blomfield. The business expert who went on to drive BT into virtual bankruptcy. It has no meaningful Silicon Microelectronics base. And this in an age of digital information.

[quote]But the country isn't completely without prospects. Great Britain has some of the world's top universities, and few nations are responsible for as many patent applications. Business parks and innovative high-tech firms have developed around the universities, and some are very successful.[/quote]

Indeed, loads of "Universities": and loads of Micky Mouse "Degrees" in such hugely critical subjects as Tourism and Leisure, Media Studies and even Surfing.

All essential for pushing Britain into the new demands and challenges of the New Economy.

What idiots like Brown fail to grasp when they make such asinine utterences is the total cycle time to creating the right calibre of engineers and scientists.

The process must start in Primary Schools: and escalate right up the education chain thereafter.

[quote]Business parks and innovative high-tech firms have developed around the universities, and some are very successful[/quote]

Indeed: and then examine how many innovations have been grabbed by Japanese, Korean and US tech companies thereafter.

Mainly, since Britain lacks the commercial/industrial infrastructure to actually realise a vast majority of such innovations.

In 2003, ONS published their annual analysis of Britain's Capital Wealth. Residential Housing represented some 60%+ of Total Capital Wealth.

No wonder then there is no money for technology and no will.

Nothing changed after Wilson famous "White Heat of Technology" speech in 1963: under Thatcher consideration of New Technologies didn't even receive lip service: quite the reverse as BTG (British Technology Group, the re-named National Enterprise Board) at one time a source of Venture Capital for tech start-ups, was increasingly starved of its funding base until it became simply a non-entity.

Perhaps the most telling reality is that Loughborough, arguably a hot bed of amongst other disciplines, Computer Science, wasn't even accorded university status until not many years ago.

Yet China, India and even Pakistan are churning out science and engineering graduates by the bucketload.

Still, no doubt youngsters will work as waiters and has slingers, catering for the whims and fancies of visiting Chinese, Korean, Indian etc engineers on vacation: at least then their Tourism and Leisure degree (Masters Hons, naturally) will have had some purpose...............

[Www]

 

[velcorin]

Let's be fair here...........Der Spiegal reporting, on a good day, makes the Mail look balanced[:D] This one's quite funny, coz, as of about an hour ago, the ONS revised the estimated borrowing figures, with the actuals. Looks like UK is borrowing is going to well undershoot Treasury estimates. Target seems to be around 9.5-9.7% of GDP............which is the same as Christine Lagarde revised the French figure up to last week. 

I can't link to the figures, mine's e-mail from Germany. I'm sure Reuters will have the figures for anyone interested. I doubt the BBC will carry the story. They only like bad news. 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="velcorin"]

Let's be fair here...........Der Spiegal reporting, on a good day, makes the Mail look balanced[:D] This one's quite funny, coz, as of about an hour ago, the ONS revised the estimated borrowing figures, with the actuals. Looks like UK is borrowing is going to well undershoot Treasury estimates. Target seems to be around 9.5-9.7% of GDP............which is the same as Christine Lagarde revised the French figure up to last week. 

I can't link to the figures, mine's e-mail from Germany. I'm sure Reuters will have the figures for anyone interested. I doubt the BBC will carry the story. They only like bad news. 

[/quote]

Don't know where you culled that from V.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=206

As of 9.30 AM - ONS Site March 18th 2010

[IMG]http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq332/PercyPee/2GovernmentDebt.gif[/IMG]

[Gastines]

Having just driven to Edinburgh/Dundee/Perth and Stirling ,I think you'll find that Scotland seems to be getting the Lion's share of the monies available at the moment. The amount or road improvements and bridge building going on was quite staggering. Especially so when the busiest parts of the motorways were this side of Scotch Corner. Just heard on the news of the decrease in funding to the Universities but not so in Scotland where an increase is expected. At one meal it was actually said, by our Scottish host ,that many in Scotland were amazed at how the English were allowing themselves to be dictated to.legislated and drained of their earnings and pensions ,by a crowd of Scots. Perhaps Brown and his cronies are going to jump ship now they've virtually sunk it and return to an Independant Scotland?

[krusty]

I still think Greece will be the start of a fall for the euro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z58p1F9TcM

[Quillan]

"and then examine how many innovations have been grabbed by Japanese, Korean and US tech companies thereafter"

The thing is we are quite good inventors but we have serious problems getting things to market. One of my clients was BT Martlesham Heath, I was in one of there 'secure' research labs when they were visited by a load of Asian people being shown around. I thought they would lock everything up but oh no, they left bits out on desks and benches with little notes on what these things did. I said to one of the managers 'isn't that a bit risky, somebody might steal them' he replied 'that's basically the idea, we can't get these in to production, we don't have the money or the technology so we let them take them, they have the technology to make these things for pennies and you will see them in the market place within 18 months'.

[Quillan]

[quote user="krusty"]

I still think Greece will be the start of a fall for the euro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z58p1F9TcM

[/quote]

Oh come on Krusty how many long months have gone past with people saying "the Euro's going to collapse 'tomorrow' just you wait and see" and here we all are still waiting. I mean Jesus people are even getting excited because the Euro went up by about a cent against the pound today. One cent, come on its supposed to be well over 1,25 by now according to what 'the experts' said last year. Some even said it would be up around 1,45 they were obviously joking or quite clearly didn't have a clue about what they are talking about or living in a different reality. They are just clasping at straws hoping it will go up and 'betting' on just about anything so if it does go up they can say 'look how cleaver I am I predicted that'.

My prognosis for what its worth is there are about 3M expats in Europe trying to get back to the UK because they can't survive on the current exchange rate. All these comments about the Euro collapsing just gives them false hope that things might be getting better so lets borrow some more money and we will be back to happy days soon when the Euro collapses. So in my mind the only people doing well are those lending them the money and those borrowing it are going to loose the shirt of their backs and end up with nothing other than a massive debt that they can never pay back.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Quillan"]

"and then examine how many innovations have been grabbed by Japanese, Korean and US tech companies thereafter"

The thing is we are quite good inventors but we have serious problems getting things to market. One of my clients was BT Martlesham Heath, I was in one of there 'secure' research labs when they were visited by a load of Asian people being shown around. I thought they would lock everything up but oh no, they left bits out on desks and benches with little notes on what these things did. I said to one of the managers 'isn't that a bit risky, somebody might steal them' he replied 'that's basically the idea, we can't get these in to production, we don't have the money or the technology so we let them take them, they have the technology to make these things for pennies and you will see them in the market place within 18 months'.

[/quote]

Indeed.

Interesting to me that as BT were headed down the tubes (And how they could manage this, with then an effective monopoly and during an era when Datacom and Telecom were wholly explosive is quite beyond me), Vodafone, under the vision and determination of Chris Gent, managed to build one of the largest telecom operators in Europe.

Using, however, hardware manufactured abroad.

And until and unless Britain realises it must create and maintain competitive advantage in tech areas, then the country will continue its downwards economic spiral into a nonentity, in global terms.

 

[krusty]

"there are about 3M expats in Europe trying to get back to the UK because they can't survive on the current exchange rate."

It makes you wonder where these figures come from , can there really be that many people so stupid that they did not allow for the exchange rate going down ?

[Gastines]

Perhaps Mr Brown should have asked for your advice Krusty as you obviously have the ability to see several years into the future. Labour obviously can't as they are now re-opening 4 job-centres that they closed last year. I did note that one they closed in Bournemouth was a very large premises in one of the most expensive commercial property roads in the town and when vacated all the desks/info centres etc. etc where just left behind. Never mind ,as they like to say"Lessons will be learnt".

[Jay]

[quote user="Quillan"]My prognosis for what its worth is there are about 3M expats in Europe trying to get back to the UK because they can't survive on the current exchange rate.[/quote] Quillan, I presume you originate from the UK and are therefore including yourself in the 3M expats who are desperate to return? That is an incredible statement with no foundation whatsoever. We moved to France when the exchange rate was £1 = 1.68€, wonderful, and we are on fixed income from the UK, however we have no intention to return. How about you Krusty, are you from the UK and desperate to return? Let's start a poll. We have many expat friends and only one couple have returned to the UK and that had nothing to do with money. Your prognosis in my opinion is worthless.

[krusty]

I think Q was jesting , another of these fictional figures was in the Mail , they used 4M [:D]

Yes I am from the UK with no wish to return.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Jay"][quote user="Quillan"]My prognosis for what its worth is there are about 3M expats in Europe trying to get back to the UK because they can't survive on the current exchange rate.[/quote] Quillan, I presume you originate from the UK and are therefore including yourself in the 3M expats who are desperate to return? That is an incredible statement with no foundation whatsoever. We moved to France when the exchange rate was £1 = 1.68€, wonderful, and we are on fixed income from the UK, however we have no intention to return. How about you Krusty, are you from the UK and desperate to return? Let's start a poll. We have many expat friends and only one couple have returned to the UK and that had nothing to do with money. Your prognosis in my opinion is worthless.[/quote]

Read what I said, "3M expats in Europe", I didn't specifically mention France. I do however know of quite a few (in to double figures) that have gone or are going back to the UK. One couple I know are even down to selling everything and are now living in a motorhome because they don't have enough to buy a place back in the UK. The biggest group of expats looking to return is in Spain but there are loads more in other countries. Not only have I read that over the last year but I have confirmation from family who live and work there.

Personally I moved everything to France and I am here to work as is my wife and we enjoy between us a good income. I don't draw any pension or any other income from the UK so I am not tied to any exchange rate at present. Of course I have pensions  (state and private) in the UK and will draw on them one day but I have also made investments within the Euro zone which in more recent times have out performed anything I would have got in the UK, so no I am not desperate to move back, I will not say never as thats a big word to use but I can't see any reason to go back in the foreseeable future. I won't however be staying where I am, my current house is a business and an investment, its also far to big for when I retire. Will I stay in France, well who knows, but as I said we have no plans to go back to the UK.

Finally, just because you only know of one person who has returned (but not for money) it does not mean it's not happening. What I was saying and will repeat in more simple terms is that people listen to these 'experts' and believe them. They try and hang on by borrowing money etc when sometimes its best to leave before things get so bad they are pushed, giving false hope is a terrible thing and those giving it don't think of the individuals who suffer as a result.

Perhaps if you wanted to start a straw pole you might be better off asking these questions.:

Is your income Sterling based?

Has the recession and exchange rate effected your quality of life in France and if so how?

If the exchange rate does not improve would you concider returning to the UK or moving to another country?

 

[Jay]

[quote user="krusty"]

I think Q was jesting , another of these fictional figures was in the Mail , they used 4M [:D]

Yes I am from the UK with no wish to return.

[/quote] No he wasn't.

[krusty]

3Million it is then , Q said so , I better pack my bags to help make up the numbers [;-)][:P]

[Quillan]

[quote user="Jay"][quote user="krusty"]

I think Q was jesting , another of these fictional figures was in the Mail , they used 4M [:D]

Yes I am from the UK with no wish to return.

[/quote] No he wasn't.[/quote]

Actually the figure was from a recent, like this week, report on C4 news. The report was actually on the appeal lodged (to the European Court) by a large number of expats who have claimed it was unfair for the British government to freeze their state pension as of the date they stop being a UK resident. In amongst the report it was said that 3M expats wanted to return home, the majority of whom live in Europe. To back that up it also said that the root cause was the decline in the value of Sterling against the Euro and the reliance of many on their state pension. I can quite imagine that by the time The Mail and other newspapers got hold of the story the numbers had increased.

[Gastines]

Quite funny really the criticism of the Daily Mail figures. Perhaps they take the figures,as in crime,immigration numbers,jobless,Army budgets/etc.etc issued by the Labour Party and double or quadruple them to try and get nearer the truth?

Jay,please sort out your keyboard or your typing.

[Bugsy]

Gorgon Brown said the other day that, following his new proposals, 40,000 new nurses had been recruited into the NHS.

40,000.

Why no one picked him up on that I have no idea.

[:(]

[Quillan]

[quote user="Bugsy"]Gorgon Brown said the other day that, following his new proposals, 40,000 new nurses had been recruited into the NHS.

40,000.

Why no one picked him up on that I have no idea.
[:(]
[/quote]

Thats bought a mixture of amusement and disbelief for me.

Not so long ago, sometime in 2009, I can remember on the news they said that in future those applying to become nurses will have to have a degree, thats before they even start their nursing course. So to my mind, given how long it normally takes to get a degree and to be trained as a nurse, it would be impossible in the time given. Alternatively perhaps they will get a degree after six months then have 18 months training as a nurse, a recipe for disaster I think. Another way perhaps is to have 'community nurses' like we have 'Community Police' i.e. people doing the same work as the professionals but without qualification and at half the wage.

What I think he really means is that the posts will be created and then filled using yet more contract/agency nurses. This use of contract/agency nursing really has to stop, the UK tax payer simply can't afford it. Many nurses complete their training and then either leave the country and work elsewhere (Australia comes to mind as an example) or sign on at agencies because they get more money. The easiest way is to make trainee nurses sign a contract when they start saying they will work in the NHS for a set period, say 5 years after completing their training so that the tax payer can get value for money from the cost of training them. I believe that all contracts with agencies should be stopped anyway and then outlawed. This way the only way a nurse can get a job is to work in the private sector, NHS direct, go abroad or just not work. This would save the tax payer millions not just in the cost of nurses but on all the back 'room people' who administer the agency nurses.

Moving on, I notice that on the news today not only are the BA flight attendants going on strike but it looks like the railway signalmen are coming out as well in the not too distant future which will result in a total shutdown of the railway system.

I also saw that in Birmingham six social workers have been sacked and the director has been replaced. Not bad considering some 7 children have died there over the last year to 18 months either in social care or on the 'at risk' register. Apparently this has nothing to do with the sad case of Khyra Ishaq as further staff may well be sacked when the official report in to her terrible death is released. Personally I am really wound up about this and the other gross incompetence's of the Social Services especially when it results in the avoidable deaths of children. What the hell is wrong with these people and the system that allows these terrible things to happen. By the way I liked the bit of film on the news of the new boss taking flowers and a bottle of bubbly in to the office to 'cheer up and reassure' the existing staff. God, boozing at work, in the office, I would sack the bloody lot of them. I fear it does not bode well for the future if this is an example of their management. I believe the government report on Birmingham social services called it 'not fit for purpose' and it seems it still is.

So going back to the OP's post and the article he linked to I make it far more right than wrong and I certainly wouldn't be so keen to dismiss it so out of hand as I fear its nearer to the truth than we might think.

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Not so long ago, sometime in 2009, I can remember on the news they said that in future those applying to become nurses will have to have a degree, thats before they even start their nursing course. So to my mind, given how long it normally takes to get a degree and to be trained as a nurse, it would be impossible in the time given. Alternatively perhaps they will get a degree after six months then have 18 months training as a nurse, a recipe for disaster I think. Another way perhaps is to have 'community nurses' like we have 'Community Police' i.e. people doing the same work as the professionals but without qualification and at half the wage.

[/quote]

You're behind the times, Quillan.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but following the implementation of Project 2000, a report published sometime in the 1990s, all the modern equivalents of SRN are graduates. There are a number of universities with Schools of Nursing and all people wishing to become registered nurses now follow this route. The students spend part of their time in classroom and part of the time obtaining practical experience. During the time my late wife was making hospital visits for treatment and for evaluation (and she died several years ago) it was common to see student nurses wearing badges stating the university in which they were enrolled.

There were always State Registered Nurses, State Enrolled Nurses and Nursing Auxilliaries.

Incidentally, there are about 675,000 nurses in the NHS so an increase of 40,000 is an increase of about 6% - I suppose it may be possible, given the number of Fillipino imports.

[andyh4]

Read the statement carefully.  It says 40000 nurses recruited since the start - and in the equivalent period before the start how many?  30000, 50000? who knows?

[Quillan]

[quote user="Clarkkent"][quote user="Quillan"]

Not so long ago, sometime in 2009, I can remember on the news they said that in future those applying to become nurses will have to have a degree, thats before they even start their nursing course. So to my mind, given how long it normally takes to get a degree and to be trained as a nurse, it would be impossible in the time given. Alternatively perhaps they will get a degree after six months then have 18 months training as a nurse, a recipe for disaster I think. Another way perhaps is to have 'community nurses' like we have 'Community Police' i.e. people doing the same work as the professionals but without qualification and at half the wage.

[/quote]

You're behind the times, Quillan.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but following the implementation of Project 2000, a report published sometime in the 1990s, all the modern equivalents of SRN are graduates. There are a number of universities with Schools of Nursing and all people wishing to become registered nurses now follow this route. The students spend part of their time in classroom and part of the time obtaining practical experience. During the time my late wife was making hospital visits for treatment and for evaluation (and she died several years ago) it was common to see student nurses wearing badges stating the university in which they were enrolled.

There were always State Registered Nurses, State Enrolled Nurses and Nursing Auxiliaries.

Incidentally, there are about 675,000 nurses in the NHS so an increase of 40,000 is an increase of about 6% - I suppose it may be possible, given the number of Filipino imports.

[/quote]

I think you are wrong, the following is taken from the http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/nursing.shtml website.:

Here you will find information about some of the many types of nursing that exist within the NHS. To work as a nurse in the NHS, you must be registered with the Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC), which means you'll need a degree or diploma in nursing. However, diploma courses will be phased out between September 2011 and early 2013 and new entrants to the nursing profession from September 2013 will have to study a degree. Some universities may only offer the new degree programme from September 2011 so you should contact your local university nearer the time of your application to see which programmes they are offering.

However, there are many ways in which you can become a registered nurse. For instance, you can work your way up from being a healthcare assistant (which may not require any qualifications), and progress to apply for a place on a degree or diploma course, or you can begin your professional study after gaining your A levels. Depending on experience and training there are plenty of opportunities for you to rise up the ranks to manage teams, run wards and even reach consultant level, if desired.

I found that when I tried to find out how many nurses there are and how many of them are permanent and how many are agency like anything run by the government the numbers are very elusive and I don't have the time.

I did rent one of my houses out to Filipino nurses. They came to the UK for a year to complete their training and then return. My house full of nurses (well OK six), me on a narrow boat somewhere in the north of England, got that a bit wrong. [;-)]