Welfare State, is this how it works?

[woolybanana]

Not having lived in UK for many years, and reading how apparently articulate and intelligent people want to keep the Welfare State going, and reading this (admittedly in the DM), I do wonder if another model is not worth a trial.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2059238/Army-veteran-Mark-Mullins-wife-Helen-driven-suicide-poverty.html

[Alex H]

More HERE on this sad affair (or momentous social services c&^%up), with a video of the couple, from the Coventry Telegraph.

[woolybanana]

Frightening.

[PaulT]

Contrast it with this from another forum that I belong to - the person writing it is a Magistrate:

I was dealing with an application for a football banning order today for a defendant charged with trying to enter a designated sporting event while drunk.

During the course of the application it became clear that the defendant was a staunch supporter of Manchester City. So much so that he had a season ticket every year, travelled to every away game, including internationals and even managed to down fifteen pints of beer before the game (the reason he was in front of my bench today in fact).

Now, as I understand it, a season ticket to Manchester City isn't something that can be purchased for pennies, and it doesn't get you into internationals, quite apart from the transport costs... and the price of fifteen pints at a boozer convenient for the ground on a match-day

I was somewhat surprised then, when he stated that his sole source of income was job-seeker's allowance.

[breizh]

Standard churnalism by the DM. Straight CtrlC/CtrlV. I get nervous about these sort of stories, as 6 months down the line there is a 2 line retraction on page 22.

Reading the story the "evidence" is hearsay from a 3rd party. It will be interesting when the "truth" comes out.

My wife used to work with Mind when we lived in the Uk. It simply would not be possible for this sort of thing to happen. The charities and agencies actively look for these sort of cases, even to the point of overuling the wishes of the beneficiaries. You'd have to work very, very hard to ensure you slipped through the net.

[Gardener]

There is a lot in it that doesn't quite add up imo. First the article says her daughter was taken into care and then it was their daughter. He is an army veteran but doesn't have a pension, but the army website states that after two years service you start to accrue pension rights.

Tragic when anyone takes their own life, but I do think there are plenty of organisations in the UK that could have helped them, so I am wondering why if the story is accurate, that didn't happen.

[NormanH]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

Not having lived in UK for many years, and reading how apparently articulate and intelligent people want to keep the Welfare State going, and reading this (admittedly in the DM), I do wonder if another model is not worth a trial.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2059238/Army-veteran-Mark-Mullins-wife-Helen-driven-suicide-poverty.html

[/quote]

Seems a dysfunctionment rather than a case for abolishing the Welfare State.

Would this couple have been better off in any other system?

[mint]

[quote user="breizh"]Standard churnalism by the DM. Straight CtrlC/CtrlV. I get nervous about these sort of stories, as 6 months down the line there is a 2 line retraction on page 22. Reading the story the "evidence" is hearsay from a 3rd party. It will be interesting when the "truth" comes out. My wife used to work with Mind when we lived in the Uk. It simply would not be possible for this sort of thing to happen. The charities and agencies actively look for these sort of cases, even to the point of overuling the wishes of the beneficiaries. You'd have to work very, very hard to ensure you slipped through the net.[/quote]

I agree.  I can't work out how it could have happened.

I know of 2 couples here where I live in France who have grown-up children back in the UK who live on benefits.  The parents tell me that it doesn't "pay" for their children to work as their rent get paid, they get a rebate for part of their rates and they get different allowances as well to enable them to live and job-hunt.

The welfare state in the UK is amongst the most generous in the world (or at least that's what I keep getting told).  Now, I wouldn't want it dismantled; goodness knows, it was hard enough to implement it and I think it was only possible to do in the immediate post-war period.

OTOH, when you hear of people who, on benefits, manage to eat and drink to such an extent that they are now "too fat" to work, you've got to ask how come they manage to buy so much food and drink?

I think, whilst it might be too "generous", it would be hard to rein back drastically without hurting many, many genuine claimants.

[woolybanana]

Not abolished, but modified or a different model tried, perhaps, which picks up these cases and which cares for those who need it, whilst insisting that the 'able' have to carry out work for their benefits.

[NormanH]

Hasn't that been tried?

I seem to remember

"Except as to medical attendance, and subject to the exception respecting

apprenticeship herein after stated, all relief whatever to able-bodied

persons or to their families, otherwise than in well-regulated

workhouses (i.e. places where they may be set to work according to the

spirit and intention of the 43d of Elizabeth) shall be declared

unlawful, and shall cease, in manner and at periods hereafter specified;

and that all relief afforded in respect of children under the age of 16

shall be considered as afforded to their parents"

[IMG]http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh80/bfb_album/Pontefract2.jpg[/IMG]

[mint]

From each, according to his means; to each according to his needs.

Can't say I've got the quote exactly right but you get the idea.

Clearly, those who can, are not paying as much as they are able to afford, and those who are in need are not getting, well, what they should get to enable them to live in a reasonable and dignified manner.

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

From each, according to his means; to each according to his needs.

[/quote]

So said  Karl Marx. (I wonder what Groucho would have said?)

According to, I think, the Grauniad, Dave's Big Society has been characterised as "From each according to their vulnerability, to each according to their greed". In the case which Wooly refers to - if the facts are correct - this seems appropriate.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Gardener"] He is an army veteran but doesn't have a pension, but the army website states that after two years service you start to accrue pension rights.

.[/quote]

I suspect that it all depends on your individual terms of entry, eg I am ex RAF but have no service pension. That was as per my terms and conditions of entry at the time.

The man who is the subject of the newspaper report is said to be 48 yrs old and served a short time, presumably quite some years ago. T & Cs could well have been somewhat different then.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Clarkkent"][quote user="sweet 17"]

From each, according to his means; to each according to his needs.

[/quote]

So said  Karl Marx..

[/quote]Not quite.  From each according to his ability.... iirc

[mint]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Clarkkent"][quote user="sweet 17"]

From each, according to his means; to each according to his needs.

[/quote]

So said  Karl Marx..

[/quote]Not quite.  From each according to his ability.... iirc[/quote]

There, Coops, told ya I didn't know it verbatim!

The welfare state is in itself an absolutely wonderful concept.  In practice, however, as with most things fantastic in theory, it hasn't quite lived up to expectations.

Still, I think that Britain could be proud that it's made it work, more or less, for nigh on 60 plus years.  We tinkle with it at our peril, unless and until we can find something better to put in its place.

It's the greedy b******s that make it OK for themselves  AND GET AWAY WITH DOING SO and let everyone else go to the devil [+o(] 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="sweet 17"]It's the greedy b******s that make it OK for themselves  AND GET AWAY WITH DOING SO and let everyone else go to the devil [+o(] [/quote]The TV programme being discussed elsewhere brought this home big time last night.  The statistics about the way wealth is spread were seriously scary in that the economic picture is beginning to resemble that of the great depression since a larger and larger proportion of the cash is going to a smaller and smaller percentage of the population.  Uncomfortable viewing.  I'm so glad I don't have children (apart from the fact that I can't stand the things, I mean!) - what will the future hold for them if a few greedy b*st*rds continue to share the lot between them to the detrement of the rest?

[NormanH]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

[quote user="sweet 17"]It's the greedy b******s that make it OK for themselves  AND GET AWAY WITH DOING SO and let everyone else go to the devil [+o(] [/quote]The TV programme being discussed elsewhere brought this home big time last night.  The statistics about the way wealth is spread were seriously scary in that the economic picture is beginning to resemble that of the great depression since a larger and larger proportion of the cash is going to a smaller and smaller percentage of the population.  Uncomfortable viewing.  I'm so glad I don't have children (apart from the fact that I can't stand the things, I mean!) - what will the future hold for them if a few greedy b*st*rds continue to share the lot between them to the detrement of the rest?

[/quote]

This is what I have been screaming about on another thread...

And they manipulate opinion to divide us..

[mint]

Norman, whilst you're on line, will you please look in your PMs in a couple of minutes?

[Chancer]

I suspect the £57 a week was after rent, council tax etc, the dole or income support is more than that isnt it?

Still a very sad story but I suspect there is a lot more behind the tragedy than is being presented.

It did remind me of the stories of my fathers upbringing during the great depression, the only food that he got was from soup kitchens, my grandmother died at the age of 33 having born 9 children (only 5 of which survived infancy) at the hands of a drunken violent miner who progressively starved not only her but the whole family and eventually beat her to death.

Things have moved on dramatically in a few decades, you only have to look at the recent riots to see that being poor aint what it used to be but there will unfortunately always be tragic cases who perhaps dont have the will to survive that most of us have.

I get by quite well on only a few quid more than they had and pay for all the food that I eat, could I keep a roof over my head and feed and clothe an additional person on that? it would be bloomin tight but I reckon so if I didnt have a car and used the resto de coeurs or soup kitchens

[cooperlola]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="cooperlola"]

[quote user="sweet 17"]It's the greedy b******s that make it OK for themselves  AND GET AWAY WITH DOING SO and let everyone else go to the devil [+o(] [/quote]The TV programme being discussed elsewhere brought this home big time last night.  The statistics about the way wealth is spread were seriously scary in that the economic picture is beginning to resemble that of the great depression since a larger and larger proportion of the cash is going to a smaller and smaller percentage of the population.  Uncomfortable viewing.  I'm so glad I don't have children (apart from the fact that I can't stand the things, I mean!) - what will the future hold for them if a few greedy b*st*rds continue to share the lot between them to the detrement of the rest?

[/quote]
This is what I have been screaming about on another thread...
And they manipulate opinion to divide us..
[/quote]On a number of topics, Norman, we are in agreement.[:)]  I know that I should debate these things more than I do (I greatly admire your persistance and fortitude in the face of some posters - and no, Wooly, I don't mean you!) but I just don't always  have the energy at present.