The Sheer Insanity not only continues: It Just Became Worse!

[Gluestick]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11300793/EU-court-rules-that-fatness-can-constitute-a-disability.html

For those who question why the UK urgently needs to re-consider it's relationship with Europe, then look no further.....

What wondrous opportunities this latest moronic decision offers the venal and litigious Human Rights lawyers, funded from the public purse, naturally.

30 stone blobs insisting it is their right to become firefighters: etc.

As an employer, myself, it means in future one has to be extremely selective at interviews and re-draft employment contracts with subtle escape routes, which I have already identified.

[Frederick]

Yep Crazy ...... Plus also today more ammo handed to UKIP....over free movement

The EU's supreme court said the UK government can no longer require entry visas in advance for non-EU citizens who are family members of EU citizens and hold residence rights in other EU states.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1218/667638-eu-court-visa/

[nomoss]

I think that the UK government's stance constitutes insanity, and wonder exactly what Frederick finds "crazy" in this ECJ ruling.

I heard all about this situation earlier this year, when a British friend wanted to return to the UK with his Uruguayan wife of some years and their baby son, after he lost his job there.

He was told that he had to have £62,500.00 in his bank account for 6 months before he could even apply for a visa for her, and was in the process of selling everything they owned and borrowing from his family to try to meet the requirement.

I tried to help him through a bewildering maze of badly written, confusing, and very often contradictory regulations, which rivalled anything Kafka came up with.

He eventually followed my suggestion that they all just fly to the UK and take the risk. They were allowed to enter, and their son (who is, of course, British) is now in the NHS, which was his big worry.

However, his wife has only a temporary visa, and has to leave UK to renew it every 6 months.

As a Uruguayan, his wife has right of residence in Spain, so under current rules, if he were Spanish he could bring her into the UK without any visa.

Insanity indeed!

[Frederick]

I was referring to a BMI being reached and then be declared as being "disabled " That is crazy IMO ... I can see some now put on a kilo or two to get themselves listed as "disabled " and get a claim in .

The Visa link was just regarding the other thing they announced today ....

[PaulT]

Yes, any spend on campaigns for healthy sensible eating will now be a waste of money.

On the subject of benefits was at a meal last night and someone said to someone about their job 'that work is hard and low paid' to which the reply was 'it does not matter how low the pay is as it is made up with tax credits, the lower the pay the more the tax credit'.

For employees they only need to pay the minimum wage and the employees are happy

[nomoss]

[quote user="Frederick"]I was referring to a BMI being reached and then be declared as being "disabled " That is crazy IMO ... I can see some now put on a kilo or two to get themselves listed as "disabled " and get a claim in .

The Visa link was just regarding the other thing they announced today ....[/quote]

Ah, you mean the Visa link which you "just" referred to as  "more ammo handed to UKIP"

I forwarded the link to my friend in England. Here is part of his reply: It apparently takes some time to renew the visa.

I saw this on the news this morning and contacted my wife straight away who

just left the uk 2 weeks ago because her 6 months was up.  Of course having to

pull my son out of primary school for this.

Many thanks for the link. 

I will be looking into it further tonight. 

I am working and will have the 6 months of work requirement completed in

March before we can begin the visa process. 

But I am hoping this will change things.

At least it was on the bbc news as the government had been keeping it very

quiet for obvious reasons. 

Weather is fine.  I don't mind it really.  Depressing part is being without

my son!

[Quillan]

I wanted to think about this before posting my view as my initial response would be 'this is crazy' but it needs a bit of thought.

The first thing that comes to mind and I don't have the time to find it at the moment is that I would like to see the actual ruling rather than rely on a newspaper as all of them have some political axe to grind.

Secondly there are two different types of obese people, those that are 'self inflicted' obese i.e. they got themselves that way and others who are obese through a medical condition/illness.

Those that are self inflicted obese are not, in my opinion, handicapped because they have done to to themselves and therefore can undo their obesity.

Those that are obese because of an illness or medical condition cannot help it and therefore I would term as handicapped and should be helped as it is not their fault.

With the latter companies with on-site parking are obliged I believe after a certain number of employees is reached to supply handicapped parking so therefore nothing would change. With regards for special amenities for disabled people I think the government should give assistance to companies who in turn offer the opportunity for disabled people to return to work which often results in them gaining a feeling of self worth from which not just they but society the company they work for can benefit from.

So basically if they are registered as disabled they should be treated as any other disabled person, if they are not registered as disabled then they should be treated as any normal person. There should be no discrimination when it comes to handicapped people even within the handicapped grouping.

[Frederick]

Nomoss Wrote :

Ah, you mean the Visa link which you "just" referred to as "more ammo handed to UKIP"

Well they have commented .........as I expected

Ukip MEP and spokesman on immigration Steven Woolfe said the European judges' ruling had struck another blow against Britain's power to control its borders.

Mr Woolfe said: "Britain will be forced to recognise residence permits issued by any EU member state, even though the system of permits is wide open to abuse and fraud.

"This ruling extends the so-called 'right to free movement' to millions of people from anywhere in the world who don't have citizenship of any country of the EU.

"This is yet more proof that Britain can never take back control of its borders as long as it remains in the European Union.

"The ECJ, like every other EU institution, is determined that Britain will never take back control of its borders."

[Gluestick]

The only real (common) physiological conditions which can cause gross obesity, Q are, I believe:

1.  Under Active Thyroid: which clearly, is treatable (The reverse, of course, causes weight loss). That said if the patient continues to intake excess quantities of food, particularly of the wrong type, then their weight will remain and even increase; despite treatment.

2.  Medically prescribed steroids: my niece, poor lass, suffers with an untreatable and very rare lung disease and the only treatment thus far (At the top London hospital for this, the Royal Brompton, in Chelsea) has been every three months two days in bed and massive intravenous infusions of steroids.

She has ballooned and bloated, so sadly. However, the experts have now decided she can, probably, have other treatments. I do so hope, as she has gone from a pert pretty hardworking attractive young women to a sad physical appearance.

3.  A very obscure and uncommon disease, where a rapid transit (the speed at which ingested food passes through) of food through the GIT, fails to extract a proper balance of essential nutrients and minerals, vitamins etc, but the gut and particularly colon extract all the "bad" stuff, such as fats to excess.

This is extremely rare.

(I did suffer, partially, from this during a repeating (episodic) period of misdiagnosed IBS over a 20 year spectrum).

Additionally, two genetic disorders can cause adult chronic obesity: namely, Bardet-Biedl syndrome and Prader-Willi syndrome.

However, the foregoing are extremely rare!

Interestingly, the CDC at Atlanta, Georgia a noted global centre of excellence, add a cautionary advisory:

See here:

The human body's metabolism is a classic Heat Engine in thermodynamic terms of reference: i.e. excess calorific input + low physiological output = Hello Mr/Mrs Blobby!

In France, 15 years ago, obesity was quite rare; in our neck of the woods anyway (Pas de Calais). However I have noticed two things: increasing obesity and increasing quantities of ready meals and junk foods in the supermarchés. Perhaps there is a connection? [:D]

One only has to stand in a UK supermarket checkout and note the utter rubbish going into shopper's trolley to make pertinent conclusions: the huge family sized packs of such as Coca Cola offer another clue........

[quote]With the latter companies with on-site parking are obliged I believe

after a certain number of employees is reached to supply handicapped

parking [/quote]

Interesting comment: in my local (UK) town, there is a major RBS office: with almost zero car parking and no space to add more. Indeed, after this new development, local residents had to petition local and national government to regulate local street parking, as RBS grunts were compelled to park outside their (residents) houses and blocked narrow roads making it impossible to even leave their own drives/garages!

So what's, then? Major similar employers forced, by law to set-up out of town disabled car parks and minibuses to transport the "disabled" into the office?

My personal main concern in this charade are SMEs (Small to Medium Sized Enterprises); who generate circa 50% of UK GDP and create circa 47% of all UK employment. Most are what is called Class Sized Zero (One Man Bands) and Micro Businesses. Indeed, 99.6% of ALL UK Ltd Companies are SMEs. And a majority of SMEs employ < 10, including owners/proprietors/ partners/directors.

Interestingly, it is pretty much the same throughout the original 12 European states. (I know since I carried out an in depth fully segmented market analysis for one of our companies a few years back).

Yet, the SMEs already suffer an unfair burden in acting as unpaid tax collectors and administrators  for their national government and the EU.

The EU desperately needs employment generation: not employment disincentivisation!

[AnOther]

x2 Q

Self imposed disability should not be rewarded and I can see this move actually working to the disadvantage of the obese just as all 'affirmative action' does.

Jane Deville Almond, the chairwoman of the British Obesity Society, said obesity should not be classed as a disability.

She told the BBC: "I think the downside would be that if

employers suddenly have to start ensuring that they've got wider seats,

larger tables, more parking spaces for people who are obese, I think

then we're just making the situation worse.

[Quillan]

Actually there was a piece on BBC4 (TV) World News tonight on this and it is somewhat different to what the Torygraph (and a couple of other newspapers) is/are saying. Apparently in some situations obesity can be classed as a disability (just like I sugested) but in most cases it isn't and should not be treated as such, so said the court. It also returned the right to the individual member state to determine if a person was disabled due to their obesity. So it's not quite as open and closed as some news 'agencies' would have us believe.

If anyone is interested you can read the actual ECJ document using the link below.

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=155125&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN

What is interesting and why I couldn't find it in the last 5 days of rulings is it wasn't yesterday at all if you check the date, it was 17th JULY 2014 NOT 17th Dec 2014 as some newspapers would have us believe. Anyone smell a rat or is it just me?

So if anyone thinks they need to go a mark out extra wide parking bays and buy a load of reinforced office furniture I wouldn't bother.

 

[Chancer]

2 conditions that I know of that create obesity that arent self inflicted are being put on steroid medication (already mentioned) I too have seen the trauma that it can cause some women in particular, I think in general men  that start to look like shot-putters arent viewed in the same way and/or have a different self image.

The other is polycystic ovary syndrome which can also makes the poor victims grow a beard.

As someone who was obese all their life until 3 years ago, a gradual process from my teens I can identify and sympathise with people who through medication realise that they are being viewed by others differently.

Now thankfully I was never aware of it, I didnt know any different, to me that was just normal life, its only when I became fit and athletic that I noticed other people relating to me in a more positive way, often but not always people with low BMI"s, sometimes very positively and when I let on that I had always been obese and used to weigh 35kg more they are surprised and a few have all said the same thing which is very telling "I thought/you look like you have always been athletic/sporty" in a sort of "had we known we would not have let you into our clique" kind of way. Mind you I am more positive and ougoing myself so I guess it would be returned.

And the worse thing of all, like an ex smoker I find something niggling away Inside of me that makes me look at obese people with resentment it makes me feel very hypocritical, ashamed of myself and I fight hard against it but I realise that some people must have looked at me in that way.

My neice who is very critical of her obese and diabetic mother (my sister who I was rapidly following) tells me that she gets into work before everyone else so she can bag a handicapped space outside of the front door, she is not handicapped/disabled so has no blue badge, paid for car, free road tolls etc but according to my niece she is working on it and asking for a mobility scooter which in my mind she doesnt need and would not be good for her long term health.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Quillan"]

So if anyone thinks they need to go a mark out extra wide parking bays and buy a load of reinforced office furniture I wouldn't bother.

 

[/quote]

Except that, since in the UK as employment law has transcended its original parameters and become intensely adversarial, venal "'Uman rights" lawyers have been filling their boots at the taxpayers expense.

Thus the sheer cost of fighting such claims, means a majority of lawyers realise that "frightening power" will ensure a majority of employers will simply cave in.......

Interestingly, the court cited no evidence of persistent organic disease or predisposition, or more critically, a change of the plaintiff's health condition in the  verdict.

However, surely, it must be accepted, if the man was clinically and chronically obese during the 15 years of his employment, his physical abilities, strength and agility would have increasingly accelerated into atrophy: thus rendering him less and less and less able to adequately fulfil his duties and obligations?

Watch this space, as they say.......

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Chancer"]

2 conditions that I know of that create obesity that arent self inflicted are being put on steroid medication (already mentioned) I too have seen the trauma that it can cause some women in particular, I think in general men  that start to look like shot-putters arent viewed in the same way and/or have a different self image.

The other is polycystic ovary syndrome which can also makes the poor victims grow a beard.[/quote]

Quote:

"Where PCOS is associated with overweight or obesity, successful weight

loss is the most effective method of restoring normal

ovulation/menstruation, but many women find it very difficult to achieve

and sustain significant weight loss. A scientific review in 2013 found similar decreases in weight and body composition and improvements in pregnancy rate,

menstrual regularity, ovulation, hyperandrogenism, insulin resistance,

lipids, and quality of life to occur with weight loss independent of

diet composition.^[59] Still, a low GI diet,

in which a significant part of total carbohydrates are obtained from

fruit, vegetables, and whole-grain sources, has resulted in greater

menstrual regularity than a macronutrient-matched healthy diet.^[59] Vitamin D deficiency may play some role in the development of the metabolic syndrome, so treatment of any such deficiency is indicated.^[60]"

[Gluestick]

Just to correct Q's assumption that the ECJ Advocate General's final conclusions and decision was published in July 2014; it wasn't. It was published on December 18th, which is why it then was reported in the media.

"The European Court of Justice has this morning published its decision in the Danish obesity reference. (18-12-14)."

Legal comment and analysis is now appearing; and it is clear there are many areas for contention within UK Employment Law. And these arguments will now expand.

 See here:

See Here:

See Here:

See here:

See Here:

[Quillan]

[quote user="Gluestick"]Just to correct Q's assumption that the ECJ Advocate General's final conclusions and decision was published in July 2014; it wasn't. It was published on December 18th, which is why it then was reported in the media.

"The European Court of Justice has this morning published its decision in the Danish obesity reference. (18-12-14)."

Legal comment and analysis is now appearing; and it is clear there are many areas for contention within UK Employment Law. And these arguments will now expand.

[/quote]

The can you explain why it is not on either the Court of Justice or the General Court "List" for 18th December then,but it is for 16th July?

http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/jcms/j_6/

 

[idun]

I am against the very idea that being overweight, no matter the weight, be classed as a handicap, and I am not a little lady, I'm not absolutely 'huge' either. There are medical conditions apart from those mentioned that can lead to weight gain.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Quillan"]

The can you explain why it is not on either the Court of Justice or the General Court "List" for 18th December then,but it is for 16th July?

http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/jcms/j_6/

 

[/quote]

Delighted, Q.

What was released in July 2014, was merely the Chief Judge Advocate's Opinion. Thereafter, it was up to the court itself to ratify, determine and agree or dispute that decision.

In any case, the ECJ then (as they do) returned the case to an inferior court in Denmark to try the case, using their findings and determinations as directions: which we still await.

Now, the whole matter of jurisprudence relies on precedent: statutory law is engrossed, purposively, rather vaguely, in order that later courts can test statute in trial and reach logical (one hopes!) conclusions.

What is now critical, will be future human rights cases fought on such issues, which cite the ECJ determination/s: which we have yet to see.

As was seen recently in the Human Rights case brought be certain Iraqis, human rights lawyers brought cases to trial where the supposed victims were lying; and this process cost the UK government  tens of millions of taxpayer's money.

I note in my earlier post, the webrefs were not usable: so I repeat them hereunder. need copying and pasting into your browser.

http://www.hrlawlive.co.uk/2014/07/extreme-obesity-may-be-a-disability-says-advocate-general.html

Please note date;

http://www.hrlawlive.co.uk/2014/12/obese-workers-are-not-necessarily-disabled.html

Please also note date.

http://www.harbottle.com/obesity-new-disability/

"Is this the final decision on the issue?

No – this is the Advocate General opinion which precedes the full CJEU ruling; however the CJEU is likely to follow the Advocate General’s view that only severe, extreme or morbid obesity can be classed as a disability. The final CJEU judgment is expected in the next four to six months."

http://www.equality-ne.co.uk/downloads/1219_obesity-and-the-law.pdf

Ditto.

http://www.solicitorsjournal.com/news/employment/tribunals-and-courts/european-court-justice-decides-obesity-could-be-disability

Ditto

[Gluestick]

[quote user="idun"]I am against the very idea that being overweight, no matter the weight, be classed as a handicap, and I am not a little lady, I'm not absolutely 'huge' either. There are medical conditions apart from those mentioned that can lead to weight gain.

[/quote]

I would be extremely interested to learn what these are, please idun and add to my data.

[idun]

The ones I know of, have seen in friends/family has been thyroid problems, and a couple of cancers.

And I'm pretty sure that I have seen marked weight gain and in another excessive weight loss prior to diabetes being diagnosed.

When this sort of weight gain starts isn't it the way the body deals with the food we eat, that has changed . I know that some people over eat, but the sweeping statement that it is everyone overeating that has weight problems is not quite right, or so it seems to me.

Menopause can also affect womens weight.

[Quillan]

Thank you for the links Gluestick which I have now read in their entirety. I read further the 'original' ruling which still does not appear on the 'list' for the 18th by the way.

I totally agree with what the ruling says by the way and I think some people are making a mountain out of  molehill. Even the the HR articles are full of 'mays' and 'possibly(s)'.

The only thing I can see happening is that those who are over 40 BMI will be rushing to try and get themselves registered as disabled. Even then there is absolutely no guarantee that they will be accepted as disabled and that ruling will be final as the the EU ruling clearly states.

To suggest, as some newspapers have, that this is going to cripple industry and employers is just scaremongering and pandering to anti EU propaganda. So all in all I can't see that it is going to make much (note I didn't say no) of a difference and for those that are obese through no fault of their own will get the same protection as those with other forms of disability.

Don't' forget either that you can become 'un disabled' as well, you can even run through cycles of disability and it is not unheard of for people to become disabled for just part of the year with certain diseases and conditions.

[PaulT]

When boarding the single deck Eurotunnel trains they hold some vehicles back, let the next couple on and then the held up one is allowed on. I presume they are gauging the length of vehicles and letting the chosen ones on so that they make maximum use of the space in a carriage.

Perhaps, if airlines fitted bench seats with no arms they could employ a similar system:

'right, you four thin ones row 6, you thin one there and you fat one there row 7, you, the extremely fat one you had better have a row to yourself, row 8..................'

[YCCMB]

Surely, given the draconian way in which genuine disabled people are being treated since the government introduced its flawed assessment criteria, there's very little chance of obese people being able to "profit" from being classed as such? I know of several people with genuine disabilities who have had their DLA and other benefits withdrawn, despite being clearly and unequivocally entitled to them.

What kind of bizarre, deluded sickness would induce a person to gain weight in order to endeavour to be classed as "disabled" ? And, if they did, surely there's a sort of Darwinian spinoff, where they will be rewarded by dropping dead of some obesity-related illness, far earlier than would otherwise be the case? I guess you'd have to be both obese and intellectually lacking to choose it as an option.

[Quillan]

Actually Betty the same thought had gone through my mind as well.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Surely, given the draconian way in which genuine disabled people are being treated since the government introduced its flawed assessment criteria, there's very little chance of obese people being able to "profit" from being classed as such? I know of several people with genuine disabilities who have had their DLA and other benefits withdrawn, despite being clearly and unequivocally entitled to them.

What kind of bizarre, deluded sickness would induce a person to gain weight in order to endeavour to be classed as "disabled" ? And, if they did, surely there's a sort of Darwinian spinoff, where they will be rewarded by dropping dead of some obesity-related illness, far earlier than would otherwise be the case? I guess you'd have to be both obese and intellectually lacking to choose it as an option.[/quote]

Problem is, Betty, it not just Government's perspective I am considering.

Near our house in France lived an English couple: she was grotesquely over-weight and had worked for a local government department in the North of England had managed to achieve retirement on health grounds,  nearly a full generous pension, plus UK state permanent Sickness Benefit. Once you had it then, you had it for ever.

Yet she was scrambling up ladders painting her house..........

Already, smaller employers in the UK suffer huge problems with employment legislation: this will no doubt add to them.