EU referendum voting rights will not be extended to all UK citizens living abroad

[woolybanana]

Regardless of whether one can cheat or not, surely those of us who have been away for say 15 or more years really should not vote in UK elections. We are out of touch, out of date and focussed on (in this case) France.

Whenever I do return to the UK for a short time, I do feel as if it is a foreign country with vestiges of a place where I once spent about 25 years of my life in chunks of about 10 years.

Whereas I do feel at ease in France; the word 'home' is not what I mean as I am far too much of a vagabond for that.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="mint"][quote user="andyh4"]That did occur to me but can you imagine Nick P's apoplexy if I came to the UK, got on the register and then returned straight back to France?[/quote]

Well, andy, you will have to do it without letting Nick P know?[:D]

Unless, of course, you actually do wish he'd have apoplexy?[6]

On a more serious note, what do people think of the question itself?  Should Britain remain etc (can't remember the rest of it, it's soooo memorable!)


[/quote]Personally I will be voting  for the UK to remain in the EU as I feel it is better to have some influence than none. I also feel it is consistent with my view that Scotland should remain part of the UK. Yes I agree with those that think the EU needs reforming, after all no organisation is perfect and I feel we have more chance of improving it from within than from outside.

I also feel that EU citizens who have been resident in the UK for more than a certain time should be allowed to vote in the referendum.

[Quillan]

I don't agree with the last bit but like you (providing the vote is carried out in time) I shall be voting to stay. The EU does need reforming without doubt but you can't do that from the outside and by leaving and then joining the EEA like Norway we will have no say yet pay the same money and have to abide by the same EU legislation as before.

With regards to Scotland (Wales and NI) being a federalist I think the old 'union' bit is just historic really and like the EU the whole thing needs to be brought up to date. I would suggest scrapping 'the union' and replacing it with a federal system more along the lines of the Australian model than the American one. They can then scrap the House of Lords which I know many will be pleased to see go and it can be used for federal government whilst the House of Commons can become the English parliament as opposed to the UK parliament dealing with English matters only.

[Jazzer]

The worrying fact is that the word "remain" has been inserted as in a survey a high percentage of people did not realise we were already in the EU.

[NickP]

[quote user="andyh4"]That did occur to me but can you imagine Nick P's apoplexy if I came to the UK, got on the register and then returned straight back to France?[/quote]

Funnily enough Andy nothing in my life so far has moved me in any way even near to apoplexy and I can't think that will change for any reason. What does irritate me though; and I sure I've made it plain on this forum many times, is that people who left the UK many years ago for their own benefit, not for the benefit of the UK population; now want to have a say in matters that affect 45 odd million people who are having a democratic choice to voice their opinions.

                 A few disgruntled UK emigrants who are having squeaky bum time because they are are terrified the result may not suit their situation,  are now whinging about being disenfranchised. As I said before; you knew what the deal was live with it. Something I would like to see though; is that residents of the UK regardless of nationality who have lived in the UK for many years; so proving that they want to be part of the country, should have a vote, including my Polish and Lithuanian employees. [:P]

[mint]

[quote user="Jazzer"]The worrying fact is that the word "remain" has been inserted as in a survey a high percentage of people did not realise we were already in the EU.[/quote]

What???  I've just had a Victor Meldrew moment:  I don't BELIEVE it!

Where did you get that "high percentage" of people from, Jazzer?  Not actually challenging you but I find that absolutely unbelievable!

[Jazzer]

I heard it during a newspaper review last night either on Sky or the BBC. For myself I am dubious of polls after the recent election.

[andyh4]

Quote NickP

Funnily enough Andy nothing in my life so far has moved me in any way even near to apoplexy and I can't think that will change for any reason. What does irritate me though; and I sure I've made it plain on this forum many times, is that people who left the UK many years ago for their own benefit, not for the benefit of the UK population; now want to have a say in matters that affect 45 odd million people who are having a democratic choice to voice their opinions.

      A few disgruntled UK emigrants who are having squeaky bum time because they are are terrified the result may not suit their situation,  are now whinging about being disenfranchised. As I said before; you knew what the deal was live with it. Something I would like to see though; is that residents of the UK regardless of nationality who have lived in the UK for many years; so proving that they want to be part of the country, should have a vote, including my Polish and Lithuanian employees. 

Unquote

Fear not Nick, my proctologist insists I do not have a problem with muscular contractions.

However, compared with many, I am in a god place and do not rely on the Uk for a pension or for health care. Others are not so fortunate.

My objections then are not on the basis of personal needs or concerns but on a point of principle.

I do actually have understanding for those that say that since I have not been resident in the UK for so long, what right do I have to become involved in the selection of a member of parliament.

In the past the selection of an MP would be based on what you felt (s)he could do for the local community and the party they represent. In that respect I would admit that being remote from local affairs would somewhat reduce any plea for a right to vote. In more recent elections I have seen a distinct split. Support for national and nationalistic parties remains bedded on local issues, but elsewhere the local issues become subservient to the party and indeed not the party, but who is the head of the party. As such the elections have become presidential like. in the last hustings I heard people from a number of parties say openly, "if you vote for "X" then you will allow (Mr) Y into number 10." This was even said by potential Mr Ys.

If this is where we have gotten to in national elections then I claim as much knowledge and understanding as the average man in the street - indeed if I believe what the media tell us, much more.

Throughout the world, voting in national elections is based on nationality not location or residence. Given the opportunity to have multiple residencies, this makes sense - dual nationality is comparatively rare.

The referendum however adds an extra element since it has the ability to change my legal status living within the EU. It seems to me entirely wrong then that people such as myself should be excluded from expressing our views in the referendum. Perversely this then leads me to agree totally with you that EU citizens who have lived for a long period of time within the UK should have the same rights to express their views since their legal status could equally be impacted.

(Oh and as a bye line, my leaving the UK has probably saved the UK tax payer a great deal of money - as people get older they generate greater and greater demands on the health services. My negative impact on the UK - zero - and there is much more, but I guess you already know where you stand.)

[idun]

You stayed in another country when you retired andy, I chose not too remain 'abroad'. However, during all my time in France, I never thought that I should have a right to other than the little that was on offer, re voting in UK elections.

I chose where I lived and that is that, I really do not believe that for those living abroad the same 'rights' should be in place as for those who actually live in the country. I realise that one is disenfranchised but that is a choice. Just how I feel about it.

I cannot get my head around why I should expect all to be as it was when I lived in my homeland, when I chose not to live there, just cannot 'get' that, at all.

[lindal1000]

The Queen's speech promised a bill to scrap the 15 year cut of point for British Citizens living overseas and introduce 'a vote for life' as is the practice in many other countries. It is not clear at the moment whether this will be in place for the referendum, but there is currently a campaign by those living overseas to bring the bill forward.

It will not give people the same rights as those living in the UK as it only applies to General Elections and not local ones, where you can mostly choose register to vote in the country in which you live. Many people living in the UK will not be entitled to vote in the referendum as they are not citizens.

[PaulT]

Coming in to this thread part way through, it would seem to me that Andy wants a vote in the referendum to serve his own self interest to carry on living outside of the UK as he has until now which may be at odds to what those living in the UK want and serves the UKs best interests.

Seems a bit like someone wants the bus to stop at a particular place but does not actually use the bus.

[lindal1000]

I guess you can't have it both ways though PaulT. You either say the referendum is for everyone currently living in the UK, and then include everyone who is living there courtesy of being a member of the EU a..or you say it is for British citizens to decide.. regardless of where they currently live. Both groups have their vested interests. If I am allowed to vote of course I'm going to vote to stay in the EU. Why would I not as a UK citizen currently living in another EU country.

[idun]

Ooooowww, I am apparently a nationalist. Because I don't care what foreigners who live in the UK think of this referendum, at all, they have homes to go to, as I did when I lived in France...... and IF I had wanted to go home sooner, I would have done, hence accepting whatever rules were in place for non residents.

[PaulT]

lindal1000 if I were making the rule on who was allowed to vote it would be for British citizens who are UK residents. The reason, well, those people would be subject to UK laws etc some of which are shaped by the EU. Those British citizens who are not UK resident will be subject to the laws of where they are resident and therefore not affected in the same way as British citizens who are UK resident.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="idun"]Ooooowww, I am apparently a nationalist. Because I don't care what foreigners who live in the UK think of this referendum, at all, they have homes to go to, as I did when I lived in France...... and IF I had wanted to go home sooner, I would have done, hence accepting whatever rules were in place for non residents.

[/quote]A proportion of foreign EU citizens residents in the UK are married to UK citizens so it is not as simple as you make it appear.

I understand you are going to vote for the UK to leave the EU. Well, that is your choice but don't start complaining if that decision has an adverse effect on you pension and healthcare costs.

[Quillan]

[quote user="PaulT"]lindal1000 if I were making the rule on who was allowed to vote it would be for British citizens who are UK residents. The reason, well, those people would be subject to UK laws etc some of which are shaped by the EU. Those British citizens who are not UK resident will be subject to the laws of where they are resident and therefore not affected in the same way as British citizens who are UK resident.[/quote]

But those laws "some of which are shaped by the EU" are the same in every EU country.

Because it will be a refendum then I am leaning towards the idea that if you hold a UK passport you can vote.

Still it's all academic really because the UK will vote to stay in and it will be another 40 years before there is another vote if we follow the current 'trend'. [;-)]

[lindal1000]

[quote user="PaulT"]lindal1000 if I were making the rule on who was allowed to vote it would be for British citizens who are UK residents. The reason, well, those people would be subject to UK laws etc some of which are shaped by the EU. Those British citizens who are not UK resident will be subject to the laws of where they are resident and therefore not affected in the same way as British citizens who are UK resident.[/quote]

But under that reasoning all UK residents are subject to UK laws, including non British ones. I don't really have a preference but I don't agree with changing the rules in an attempt to manipulate the result to one you want. You either choose the electoral register that is used for local elections, that includes all UK residents but excludes citizens living overseas, or you choose the one that is used in the general election, which includes all those citizens who have been living overseas (not just those living in other EU Countries either) but doesn't allow non citizens to vote.

[Quillan]

Let’s go back to the beginning and why I posted.

People react blindly to headlines without reading the rest, the headline in the Guardian headline was......

EU referendum voting rights will not be extended to all UK citizens living abroad

However when you get to the second paragraph it says "The EU referendum bill, which will be announced after the Queen’s speech on Wednesday, will make clear that the franchise – the people eligible to vote – will be the same as in general elections, which is adults from the age of 18, Irish and Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK, and British citizens who have lived abroad for less than 15 years.".

So in reality absolutely nothing has changed with regards to your voting rights should you leave the UK and the headline is a bit mischievous in a way.

For some who either never bothered to register before they left the UK, in which case tough luck and others who will be outside the 15 years when the referendum takes place, well that’s life get over it but they need to understand that absolutely nothing has been taken away from them which is what the headline implies.

[idun]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

[quote user="idun"]Ooooowww, I am apparently a nationalist. Because I don't care what foreigners who live in the UK think of this referendum, at all, they have homes to go to, as I did when I lived in France...... and IF I had wanted to go home sooner, I would have done, hence accepting whatever rules were in place for non residents.

[/quote]A proportion of foreign EU citizens residents in the UK are married to UK citizens so it is not as simple as you make it appear.

I understand you are going to vote for the UK to leave the EU. Well, that is your choice but don't start complaining if that decision has an adverse effect on you pension and healthcare costs.

[/quote]

There is not much in this life that is 'simple'.

And I shall not complain. There is much to complain about in this life, but when people have to vote, whether one likes it or not, one has to accept it and feel regret, as I am with the current governments in France and the UK.

Us, well, if there was a whiff of losing the french pension, we'd simply move back and would be in the french health system as retraités in France, or maybe move to Ireland, I don't know. I am keeping my eye on it.

[andyh4]

PaulT wrote:

Coming in to this thread part way through, it would seem to me that Andy wants a vote in the referendum to serve his own self interest to carry on living outside of the UK as he has until now which may be at odds to what those living in the UK want and serves the UKs best interests.

Seems a bit like someone wants the bus to stop at a particular place but does not actually use the bus.

Unquote

Paul

you are quite correct that I do want to vote in the referendum, and that my vote would (more than likely) tend towards my own self interests.

Just how do you think that differs from anyone else who is going to vote???? Do you really think that Mrs Bloggs of Barnsley thinks that she should vote on the basis of the long term socio-economic benefits of the UK or whether some Aussie paper owner says she should place her X?

As to whether my vote would be in the best overall interest in the UK or not will always be open to debate. I doubt any decision taken in Westminster has been different for at least 3 centuries. All I can say is that anything I would vote for would be in my belief of the long term benefit to the UK and its citizens.

As for the bus, I just want the opportunity to ride on the bus, where it stops or not will be the decision of the electorate.

[andyh4]

PaulT wrote:

lindal1000 if I were making the rule on who was allowed to vote it would be for British citizens who are UK residents. The reason, well, those people would be subject to UK laws etc some of which are shaped by the EU. Those British citizens who are not UK resident will be subject to the laws of where they are resident and therefore not affected in the same way as British citizens who are UK resident.

Unquote

Paul

please do not think this is a personal attack on you, but UK laws are a figment of your imagination.

Scotland has many different laws (indeed has its own code) to England and Wales - even N Ireland has enabled some laws that are specific to their region.

Regarding EU "laws" (of which I am less than a complete fan) if they apply in the UK, the same law applies elsewhere. We are not subject to different laws in this case and are subject in exactly the same way to some of the rubbish that excretes from Brussels.

In terms of local laws, yes we are different. In some cases I applaud, in many I despair but that is my choice to be subservient to such laws.

Life is a sh1t sandwich. The best you can do is nibble at the best bits.

[Rabbie]

It now seems that this debate is generating more heat than light. The referendum enabling legislation has still got to go through both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. I think it likely that many amendments will be discussed and who knows what the final result will be especially in regard as to who is allowed to vote. It may well be the government accept changes in order to get a result within a reasonable time table. Time will tell

[andyh4]

Q wrote:

Let’s go back to the beginning and why I posted.

People react blindly to headlines without reading the rest, the headline in the Guardian headline was

EU referendum voting rights will not be extended to all UK citizens living abroad

However when you get to the second paragraph it says

The EU referendum bill, which will be announced after the Queen’s speech on Wednesday, will make clear that the franchise – the people eligible to vote – will be the same as in general elections, which is adults from the age of 18, Irish and Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK, and British citizens who have lived abroad for less than 15 years

So in reality absolutely nothing has changed with regards to your voting rights should you leave the UK

Unquote

Correct Q

and it was wrong before and it is wrong now.

In the absence of a better international rule, people have the right to vote according to nationality on national issues and residency on local ( and perhaps perversely) EU issues.

No one should be disenfranchised. But I am as are a number of others.

We are not many. We will not alone change the world. It seems many are scared sh1tless of our power (amazing or what?).

It seems we are Europe's Rahinjas - no one wants us but everyone is sh1t scared about what we might do.

Of course our rights count for not a lot.

[lindal1000]

I don't know where the source for these statistics came from, but I read that there are a total of 2.2million British Citizens living in other EU Countries, with the biggest numbers in Spain and France. Add to that the numbers living in non EU countries and you have a fairly sizeable population. Cameroon must think this group are more likely to vote for him if he is planning a 'votes for life ' bill.

Just found some other links

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/

http://www.statslife.org.uk/social-sciences/1910-how-many-british-immigrants-are-there-in-other-people-s-countries

Apparently there are around 5 million British people living permanently overseas

[ebaynut]

Norman wrote,

I disagree that there is no difference.

Voting for a temporary government is not the same as what amounts to a constitutional change.

There might be an argument for no right to vote on temporary issues, although many other countries wouldn't agree, but it seems an essential part of citizenship to be able to vote on more permanent issues.

Indeed, it is such a big issue, that we should have had a referendum years ago on this, instead of Blair telling us that the treaty was no big deal. Now thankfully we may get one, and we can at last get out of this mess once and for all!! (Hooray)

I had to laugh when Ireland had a vote on the treaty and said no, the EU then spent a fortune on ‘educating’ the Irish, had another vote, got the result they wanted, and then Blair said there was no need for us in the UK to have a vote.

For what Blair has done to this country and indeed most of the world with his buddy George, I would personally like to nominate Mr Blair for the leading role in the next IS video, perhaps they could do it pay to view, I would tune into that and happily pay to see it.