Obama

[woolybanana]

Well done, Barak, finally coming up trumps for Britain.

[idun]

Elaborate..........................[8-)]

[woolybanana]

Well, Brexit have always said that life would be better outside the EU and, particularly, that we would do better trading with the rest of the world. Obama is simply and correctly telling the UK that it ain't so from the viewpoint of one of the UK's great hopes.

So far, the debate has been sterile and useless. He has nailed one of the flappy bits to the mast.

So, good for him.

[idun]

OK, but that is a President who has to give up his job this year.

What are the candidates saying? I believe that that is more relevant.

IF the vote says stay, I have the most awful feeling that the EU will rub it's hands in glee and say that we have kowtowed and they can do what they want now........ and that is how it feels to me.

I passionately hate the way the EU is run........ at a limit I didn't mind the EEC that much... but that was years ago and but a distant memory.

[NormanH]

“They (... The Brexit camp ...) are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do."

Up yours Boris in other words…:)

Recall that Johnson once spoke of “piccaninnies” and wrote of African men with “watermelon smiles”. In the Spectator in 2002, he declared of Africa: “The problem is not that we were once in charge, but that we are not in charge any more.”

and who are 'The Candidates'?

[andyh4]

Idun

irrespective of whether Obama is going or not, the salient facts remain.

The Brexiteers have made clear that on exiting the EU, the world will be queueing up to agree trade deals with the fifth largest economy in the world. Obama points out clearly that resources will centre on doing business with the largest trading block in the world (the EU) which includes the 4th largest national economy in the world (Germany). So if there are resources left to negotiate with the UK so be it - but there may well not be.

This is likely to apply to every country in the world that is in the process of negotiating with the EU. They will simply not have the resource to spend time on new negotiations with the UK - no matter how important Brexiteers think they are.

[YCCMB]

What IS quite bizarre is Boris flopping around saying that we shouldn't take orders from an American, when (to the best of my knowledge) Boris is still one himself. Oh, and choosing to say that in a Murdoch publication is a bit of a faux pas, too.

And as for the dig at Obama"s Kenyan heritage playing a part....I don't suppose Boris's judgment on Brexit has been at all coloured by his own Turkish heritage, has it? ?

[Rabbie]

I noticed earlier this week that one of the Brexiteers( Chis Grayling) said that if they won they wanted David Cameron to lead the negotiations for the UK exit with the EU.

This suggested that either they thought DC was a brilliant negotiator so why don't they accept that the deal he has already reached with the EU is the best possible or they are looking for an excuse that they cannot deliver on the promises they are making that the world will be queuing up to give the UK wonderful trade deals.

There has been a couple of programs on BBC giving the history of the UK and what is now the EU since the second world war. It was obvious from the initial EEC as defined in the Treaty of Rome that close political union was always an aim so those who say the 1975 referendum was just about a free trade area just did not do their homework. After all we had left EFTA to join the EEC which should have been a slight hint.

The programs also highlighted the biggest handover of British sovereignty was done by Margaret Thatcher when she gave up the UK veto in the Single market Act in 1986.

[idun]

WHAT ?????

 And just how in 1975 could any of us have done our  homework?

We had three tv channels, but not in every home, my parents did not have BBC2.

We had Radio 4 etc and that was it and the papers.

Now how could we have done our research in our little town in the NE of England? With more than a lot of difficulty to be honest! We did not know we had to.

And we did not know what questions to ask........... and really, my parents were both in the forces in WW11, so you really think that they would have imagined 'german power' being such a force emerging within europe.

So criticise those of us who could vote then, well, yes, we were perhaps negligent, mushrooms...... obviously kept in the dark and fed horse dung...... it would seem!

edit...... so since 1975, any power over our own sovereignty has been simply 'given away' by an endless stream of politicans....... shame on them all and may they rot, those who remain with us.

[Rabbie]

The information was there for those who wanted to find it whether they lived in London, Scotland, the North East or where ever else in the UK. In those days there were good public libraries in every town and there was good coverage in the press and on radio and TV. It was just a question of whether people wanted to do their research or not.

As I said it is all in the Treaty of Rome. That is what we were signing up to.  The case both for and against was publicly debated in the 1975 referendum. It was reported widely in the papers and on television and radio. I did not have a TV until just before the referendum but I was able to follow the arguments easily on Radio 4 so no difficulty if you wanted to.

By the 1970s the German economic miracle was a well reported fact and it was clear that they were the rising power in Europe. My father who had no love for the Germans always thought the only way to curb their ambitions was through the EEC as it was then.

[woolybanana]

The comment has been made that Obama is on the way out and so he is; it is precisely for this reason that he can make an honest assessment and give honest advice to the British people - he has nothing to lose by bullshitting. Which is why Brexit are so worried.

[idun]

Well of the things I remember clearly that I did in 1975 they are  -  I changed jobs and met my now husband.

And I have always been 'political' so I would have paid careful attention to all that was available on the news etc about this at the time. AND I know I voted a resounding 'NO' to it even then.

I do not remember what I heard or read, just know that it seemed wrong at the time and I shall never regret my vote.  And six years later I moved to a very expensive France!

[Rabbie]

This referendum will not be decided by cold rational analysis of the facts but by people's emotional response to the arguments. This applies equally to both sides as the vast majority of ordinary voters do not have access to all the detailed information even if they have the inclination.

With the In side we know what is being offered - something very similar to what we have now but with the Out side nobody honestly knows what deals they will be able to negotiate should they win the vote.

[mint]

ON BBC TV somewhere which will no doubt be repeated and which I watched this morning, is an interview of Obama by Huw Edwards.

Very good interview, no bullying by Huw, no rudeness either but nonetheless some uncompromising questions.

Both Obama and Edwards are, of course, seasoned media performers but you do get the feeling that you are getting as straightforward an analysis of how things lie vis a vis the referendum from the other side of the pond as you could wish at this time of uncertainty.

[idun]

I remember being OUT, not as if I had not lived the first 23 years of my life OUT.

Strangely I remember when we went IN too and everyone said that prices went up. My mother did and as the expression goes, she was as tight as a duck's backside, and if she found her shopping more expensive, then I believed her.

And for all I said I moved to an expensive France, that changed within the first couple of years of my living there. Mitterand put in a wages freeze, or just about, so that 0.5% seemed a wonderful annual rise...... and prices stabilised and until the € prices were dependable... then they went up! What a shock, strangely INSEE says they didn't, but they didn't do my and my friends shopping.

Funny how once europe gets involved prices seem to rise???? and yet no statistical organisation will agree with that.......

Whatever happens, it will sort itself out in the end. It usually does. And if it is out, daresay we'll move to France or the Irish Republic.

[andyh4]

Idun

you clearly believe that the EU is an undemocratic institution, and to a degree I agree. However your strength of feeling suggests that the UK is more democratic than the EU. But is it really, or are you just fooled by familiarity?

You can rightly argue that you had no say that JC Junkers has become the president of the EU. He is however elected and approved by a majority of our countries leaders.

Did you have a say over whether DC should be prime minister?

Not really. You did have a vote on who your local MP would be and based on a majority vote on candidates a party was in the lead and their (not yours or mine) chosen leader becomes PM. I know that increasingly voting is heading more towards choosing a head of state in UK national elections, but nowhere did I see on the papers a choice between DC, DM. HC. NS and a host of others.

Junkers was voted upon by the leaders of our states as representatives of our wishes (whether we agreed or not - either for the leader or Junkers). At least in some countries there is the opportunity to vote for the president/Chancellor/ PM - not in the UK. In the UK this is hidden behind doors. In fairness to Labour they have now changed this. But who chose DC? Not you and not me - even if we lost the vote.

To make this point really clear, if you voted for M Thatcher by voting Conservative, did you vote/ agree to Major taking over? Or to take the other side, if you voted Labour to support Blair, did you have a choice when he stepped down and Brown took over?

As for the heads of the directives in the EU, this is similar to the cabinet. Have you ever been offered the opportunity to vote for any member of the cabinet in that position? In fact some of them are not ever elected.

The cabinet set day to day policy and much is well outside of the manifesto that we voted upon. Who voted to stuff the Junior Doctors? Who voted to support steel (or not). There are good reasons why we do not and cannot be party to each decision, but we are excluded nevertheless. (And please no diversions into doctors or steel - if you want to discuss open a new topic).

So are you really sure the UK is more democratic than the EU?

At the time you are talking about prices rising, I seem to remember an oil crisis that resulted in prices rising by 27%. It is easy to blame the EU, but was it?? The oil crisis effected most of the world in similar ways.

Since then there has been much more stability. Equally probably due to world situations.

The EU administration is less than perfect. I do not think that the UK administration bears up any better under scrutiny.

I am sure we will agree to differ on this last point.

[YCCMB]

Referring back to Wooly's OP, it's interesting that Obama's words ( which I am not transcribing verbatim) were along the lines of "the leave campaign has been telling you what the United States will do, so I thought you might like to hear from the President of the United States what the US will do"

However you look at it, that seems fair and reasonable.

Now, Farage ploughs in to inform us that the US president is talking (and here, I AM transcribing verbatim) "utter tosh".

Gee, who to believe when such a rational and reasoned rebuttal is made? ?

[idun]

I did not think I have said that UK is more democratic than say France.

Just deleted a page full of comments. Not the night to get me started on this. [Www]

Will say though that I found two comments I heard on UK tv and/or radio this week were interesting. One was that Strasbourg should shut up shop. And the other that it was a pity that we elected such poor calibre EMPs.

[ebaynut]

How unsurprising that the forum members who wish for the UK to remain in the EU would think what Barack Obama say

means anything of worth.  Do the people who wish to stay, who I believe are now

known as Remainians, think it matters what Barack  or BO for short, thinks.  He

is part of the global ‘elite’ who wish to destroy sovereign country's and build

a world super state.

 

He is such a poor president who has served his own people poorly,  even

young African American unemployment is running at 55%, and he embraces the TPP,

which only makes work opportunity's less, if he wont help this group, then who

will he help?

 

BO will be long gone this time next year, and MR T will be in charge of the

US.  IS will have been carpet bombed and those that are left will be water

boarded.  There is a man who gets things done for sure, I am sure he would get a

deal done with an old friend like the UK in record time. 

 

Are you so stupid not to see that its all those people who have done best

in terms of power and wealth that want us to stay in the EU, while the workers

have seen, at best their wealth stay static over the last ten years. Why do you

think think Goldman Sachs is funding the tory campaign to stay in, all the

really big businesses want us to stay, and all the bankers and world leaders.

The very fact they say we should stay should tell you something.

 

Now I will concede that we don't know what trade deals will be done after

Brexit, and what affect it will have on jobs, but for me its not important, in

fact I don't care . George Osborne say by 2030 it will cost each of us about 4K

if we leave, fine suits me, where do I pay???

 

The things that matter in the referendum are border control and

sovereignty.

 

We have an open border to over 500, 000, 000, people who can come here when

ever they want and we cant stop them. No wonder our schools are overcrowded and

the choice of school for many parents are a thing of the past.

 

And personally, I like to be able to vote for who makes the laws I have to

live by, and if I don't like them have the chance to vote them out, this cant be

done if we remain in the EU,

 

Why TF, would anyone want a future like this for the UK ?????????  [8-)]

 

[woolybanana]

Surley, the previous post should be in the thread named 'joke-of-the-week'?

[lindal1000]

"Do the people who wish to stay, think it matters what Barack, thinks. "

Well it is important for some of us who maybe don't share your view of the importance of trade with the US (if Britain votes to leave).

"He will be long gone this time next year, and MR T will be in charge of the US. "

I know you would like the idea that Mr T will be in charge, but I think that is unlikely. Hillary has already said the same as Obama..and if Trump is the candidate I think she will be president. Your only hope really is if Trump is ditched by the Republicans and there is a more credible candidate to go against Hillary. Mind you I'm not even convinced that Trump would be that interested in doing deals with UK. Why would he?

"Are you so stupid not to see that its all those people who have done best in terms of power and wealth that want us to stay in the EU, while the workers have seen, at best their wealth stay static over the last ten years. Why do you think think Goldman Sachs is funding the tory campaign to stay in, all the really big businesses want us to stay, and all the bankers and world leaders. The very fact they say we should stay should tell you something."

What it tells me is that economically, the UK's interests are best served from within Europe. If you are genuinely concerned about workers rights then the argument to stay in is even stronger, as it is European legislation that has brought in the minimum wage, working time directive, maternity and paternity rights...

"Now I will concede that we don't know what trade deals will be done after Brexit, and what affect it will have on jobs, but for me its not important, in fact I don't care ."

Well at least that is honest.. many people however do care about their prospects and jobs and don't want uncertainty

"The things that matter in the referendum are border control and sovereignty. "

Border control with regard to EU citizens is not a given, even if there is a BREXIT. (The Uk already has the powers to control who it lets in and out with regard to the rest of the world). Free trade deals with Europe (which Brexit campaigners say they want) will almost certainly be dependent on agreeing to free movement. Even the so called 'Albanian model' suggested by Mr Gove, has no free movement not because Albania wants that but because the EU has refused them. The idea that the UK could leave the EU and join the Balkan states seems a backward step to me.

"We have an open border to over 500, 000, 000, people who can come here when ever they want and we cant stop them. ."

This works two ways.. some of the 'we' you refer to are 'us', living and working in France who have made the most of free movement.

"And personally, I like to be able to vote for who makes the laws I have to live by, and if I don't like them have the chance to vote them out, this cant be done if we remain in the EU"

What a lot of tosh.. you can vote in the EU elections just like everyone else... and no, you cannot decide on the ultimate leader but neither can you decide on the UK prime minister. You vote for your local MP.. who most likely represents the party that you prefer, but unless you are a party member you have no say in who leads that party. Similar system in Europe, you vote for your representative, who may or may not be able to influence things at a European level in the way that you wish.

Out of the two systems I'd say neither of them are than democratic but the EU is no worse than the national system.

Just seen you made a similar final point Andy! Sorry a..wasn't intending to plaigerise!

[cajal]

Here's my 10 cents worth ("that's all it's worth" I hear you cry).

The title to the post states 'Obama'

As a president he will be remembered, but only for being the first African/American president and the president who took out Osama bin Laden. He certainly walks the walk and looks the business but his domestic and foreign policy record has hardly been meteoric. Obama-care? Kerbing the power of the NRA? Peace in the middle-east (including Palastine/Israel)? Remember the red line that Assad was threatened with not to cross? As for being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2009, even the then secretary of the organisation said it was a mistake. Here

So the Government of the UK are suggesting that UK citizens should hang on every word this man has been delivering to the British press and media this past week-end in support of their decision to remain in the EU. I don't think so. There are three, certainly important, decisions for UK citizens to make. Should I vote? Do I want the UK to stay wihin the EU? Do I want the UK to leave the EU?  Whichever decision they opt for I believe they should not let their decision be swayed by the comments of a lame-duck president.

As for trade deals, well the US, in 40 years, has never had a trade deal with the EU and Britain likewise has never had similar with the US. Trade Deals? Just a red herring. Nations have always traded and always will.

Unfortunately, I suspect he is following the advice of the US state department whilst doing their bidding. I imagine they want the UK as a well controlled junior partner pursuing US interests, especially when it comes to defence and use of military force. Also they want a nation government who they perceive as representing their interests inside the EU.

Those leaning towards the UK staying in the EU should consider that if the State Department wants you to stay, and Obama wants you to stay, it is a certainty you might want to pause and reflect on this issue and well, perhaps not stay, given the track record of the advice of the US Dept.of State and Obama.

I certainly don't decry  or begrudge Obama and Mrs.O (not her of 'Acorn Antiques' fame) an end of term spring 'jolly' to Europe. Good luck to them. But from a political viewpoint I think he should have kept his own counsel over another 'soveriegn states' voting issues and settled for a few more rounds on his local golf course at home until after June 23rd.

regards

cajal

[Hoddy]

I agree with most of what you have written Cajal and I add this which I picked up on Twitter which might amuse -

"Those fighting for independence can't tell us what life would be like outside the British Empire."

Lord North, Second Earl of Guildford.

[ebaynut]

Thank you for your reply Linda, its good to

get the perspective from someone who wishes to remain in the EU, as

I can honestly say, apart from what I have heard on the TV and read on this

forum, I don't know a single person who thinks we should stay in the

EU.

 

"Do the people who wish to stay, think it

matters what Barack, thinks. "

Well it is important for some of us who

maybe don't share your view of the importance of trade with the US (if Britain

votes to leave).

 

Of course trade with the US matters, its just

BO’s views that don't, as his time is almost up.

"He will be long gone this time next year, and MR T will be in

charge of the US. "

I know you would like the idea that Mr T will be in

charge, but I think that is unlikely. Hillary has already said the same as

Obama..and if Trump is the candidate I think she will be president. Your only

hope really is if Trump is ditched by the Republicans and there is a more

credible candidate to go against Hillary. Mind you I'm not even convinced that

Trump would be that interested in doing deals with UK. Why would he?

 

O’ don't worry Trump will be running against ‘crooked

Hillary’, as much as the GOP would like to stop him, and they have spent

MILLIONS trying, but cant because the people who vote, want him. He has almost

50% more delegates than his two rivals added together. No doubt you were pleased

to see he took over 60% of the vote last week in NY, when the people vote, Trump

wins, when its a closed vote among the GOP, then ‘lying Ted’ wins.

Trump will beat ‘crooked Hillary’ she is yesterdays

news, she don't even know when her husband is lying, or is she just plain

stupid????

 

Be great to see Mr T in the white house,

and his wife and daughters, it will be a nice piece of eye candy after the

frumps that have been in there of late.

 

Why would Mr T wish to do deals with the

UK you ask, well as a new politician, (he has only been doing it for 10 months, and WOW

look at his success) he will be looking for friends around the world, and who is

closer to the US than the UK????

"Are you so stupid not to see that its all

those people who have done best in terms of power and wealth that want us to

stay in the EU, while the workers have seen, at best their wealth stay static

over the last ten years. Why do you think think Goldman Sachs is funding the

tory campaign to stay in, all the really big businesses want us to stay, and all

the bankers and world leaders. The very fact they say we should stay should tell

you something."

What it tells me is that economically, the UK's

interests are best served from within Europe. If you are genuinely concerned

about workers rights then the argument to stay in is even stronger, as it is

European legislation that has brought in the minimum wage, working time

directive, maternity and paternity rights...

 

The only thing I am concerned  about here is workers wages,

the other things that you mention are gimmicks and just an added burden for the

employer, the only reason people go to work is to make money for themselves and

family, and this has been kept low because of the influx of cheap labour from

the EU.

"Now I will concede that we don't know what trade

deals will be done after Brexit, and what affect it will have on jobs, but for

me its not important, in fact I don't care ."

Well at least that is

honest.. many people however do care about their prospects and jobs and don't

want uncertainty

 

That may be the case for some, but immigration and

sovereignty outweighs this, in my view.

"The things that

matter in the referendum are border control and sovereignty. "

Border

control with regard to EU citizens is not a given, even if there is a BREXIT.

(The Uk already has the powers to control who it lets in and out with regard to

the rest of the world). Free trade deals with Europe (which Brexit campaigners

say they want) will almost certainly be dependent on agreeing to free movement.

Even the so called 'Albanian model' suggested by Mr Gove, has no free movement

not because Albania wants that but because the EU has refused them. The idea

that the UK could leave the EU and join the Balkan states seems a backward step

to me.

 

No, if we vote out, we wont be giving up the right to

stop who we don't want in the UK for some trade deal, we survived six years of

war in the UK for our independence, I am sure we can go without trading with the

EU for a while.

I will miss the French wine, but hey, sacrifices have to be made I guess.

Beside, we don't need all those Mercedes cars coming

over, far better cars are made here in the UK, Germany will be begging us to

take them, and will agree to our terms, show some

faith!!!!

"We have an open border to over 500, 000, 000,

people who can come here when ever they want and we cant stop them. ."

This works two ways.. some of the 'we' you refer to are 'us', living and

working in France who have made the most of free movement.

 

And those with jobs or something to offer will still be

able to move around, its the riff which we will be able to stop from

coming.

"And personally, I like to be able to vote for who

makes the laws I have to live by, and if I don't like them have the chance to

vote them out, this cant be done if we remain in the EU"

What a lot of

tosh.. you can vote in the EU elections just like everyone else... and no, you

cannot decide on the ultimate leader but neither can you decide on the UK prime

minister. You vote for your local MP.. who most likely represents the party that

you prefer, but unless you are a party member you have no say in who leads that

party. Similar system in Europe, you vote for your representative, who may or

may not be able to influence things at a European level in the way that you

wish.

Out of the two systems I'd say neither of them are than democratic but

the EU is no worse than the national system.

 

I am surprised by this reply, I thought you knew more

than this. let me explain further,

 

Indeed we do vote for our MEP’s, you may recall that in

the last election for them, UKIP won outright, so most MEP’s will have a pro UK

agenda, however they are a small group in the EU parliament, so

have a very small voice, it just takes a few other countries to vote a law in

the UK MEP’s don't want, and we have to accept it. That is not a sovereign

country deciding who makes the laws, that is the rest of the EU telling the UK

what to do.  Of course as we ( the UK) are a rich country compared to most of

the EU, they will want to take from us and give it to themselves. Gosh we in the

UK will end up as poor as a French peasant if they get their way.

Great news in Austria last night, seems cement may be the way to invest, so many walls to build.  [:D]

[lindal1000]

Of course you don't know anyone who wishes to remain..it all depends who your friends are! I have the opposite experience, and as the polls are pretty much too close to call, my guess would be that it will be a close result, whatever the outcome is. So, even within a democracy such as the UK, it is possible that 49% of the population will be stuck with a result they didn't choose and don't support.

A democracy means you don't always get what you want.

What I will say in reaction to your last point is that although many people are not happy with the EU and may vote to leave, very few share your

view of right wing utopian extremism.