Assessing costs of renovation

[martin]

After several years and four house moves, we are once again looking to buy. We have found a lovely but run-down Girondine house, in need of fosse, rewiring, new windows, plumbing, heating, some structual work and so on.

Of course, before we can make a calculated offer, we need to have an idea of costs. It would be impractical to get different artisans round (the house is occupied) for estimates, so I was wondering if there is an expert who, for a fee, could give at least a rough idea of restoration costs.

I could ask an architect or surveyor, but I don't think that they would be appropriate.

[Anton Redman II]

You may get some help from either a ‘Économiste de la construction’ or a ‘Maître d'œuvre’  both of which are categories in Pages Jaune.  There used to be a series of books called ‘Prix Pour Batir but these seem to have last been printed in 2004

On line site for construction but subscriptrion only.

http://www.batitel.com/prixbtp/?gclid=CPTE6O_CwKICFZFh4wodU0sq6Q

Example of problems – your site has perfect drainage and soft sandy soil or it is on granite and need drains cutting through it.

Best of luck anyway.

[Polly]

[quote user="martin"]After several years and four house moves, we are once again looking to buy. We have found a lovely but run-down Girondine house, in need of fosse, rewiring, new windows, plumbing, heating, some structual work and so on.

Of course, before we can make a calculated offer, we need to have an idea of costs. It would be impractical to get different artisans round (the house is occupied) for estimates, so I was wondering if there is an expert who, for a fee, could give at least a rough idea of restoration costs.

I could ask an architect or surveyor, but I don't think that they would be appropriate.[/quote]

1) Why on earth wouldn't a suitably qualified surveyor or an architect be appropriate?

2) If these professionals aren't, in your view, appropriate experts, what sort of person IS the 'expert' whom you would be prepared to pay?

No-one on this forum can give you any valid idea of costs without knowledge of the age & size of the house, type of exisitng construction, site size & layout, subsoil, planning limitations (if any) and so on.

This is a wind-up post, that's all, isn't it?

[Dog]

[quote user="martin"]After several years and four house moves, we are once again looking to buy. We have found a lovely but run-down Girondine house, in need of fosse, rewiring, new windows, plumbing, heating, some structual work and so on. Of course, before we can make a calculated offer, we need to have an idea of costs. It would be impractical to get different artisans round (the house is occupied) for estimates, so I was wondering if there is an expert who, for a fee, could give at least a rough idea of restoration costs. I could ask an architect or surveyor, but I don't think that they would be appropriate.[/quote]

... there are lots of experts but the price will always be twice what you may think...

[martin]

No, Polly not a wind up.

1.The reason why a surveyor or architecht would not be appropriate is because whereas they can assess what's wrong and what needs doing, they don't estimate the costs themselves.

2.I am not asking anybody on this forum to give any valid cost of restoration. I want to hire an expert to look around the house and give me an idea and I am asking if anyone on this forum knows of such a person.

Certainly Anton Redman II (above) has contributed a valuable idea for me to pursue. On another forum, I have been put in touch with a contractor who has considerable experience in renovation costs.

My posting is hardly humerous or outrageous so why would you think it to be a wind-up? This is a serious matter for me and your attempt to put me down is out of order.

[Polly]

[quote user="martin"]No, Polly not a wind up.

1.The reason why a surveyor or architecht would not be appropriate is because whereas they can assess what's wrong and what needs doing, they don't estimate the costs themselves.

2.I am not asking anybody on this forum to give any valid cost of restoration. I want to hire an expert to look around the house and give me an idea and I am asking if anyone on this forum knows of such a person.

Certainly Anton Redman II (above) has contributed a valuable idea for me to pursue. On another forum, I have been put in touch with a contractor who has considerable experience in renovation costs.

My posting is hardly humerous or outrageous so why would you think it to be a wind-up? This is a serious matter for me and your attempt to put me down is out of order.[/quote]

A suitably qualified surveyor or architect CAN give you cost estimates and is the best independent person to advise you, with the backing of insurance to give you peace of mind.

[Théière]

I agree with Polly, a contractor will see €€€ and what stands between himself and your money. A qualified surveyor or architect will appraise the work with estimates based on local trades and the correct way to approach and plan the work. Architects and surveyors can be called in afterwards to consult with your and prepare reports on why the project went wrong and how much it will cost you to mount a legal case, the choice is yours, it's where you position the horse relative to the cart. Plenty of programmes on TV of where a contractor has or has not done what you wanted and in a foreign country the problems can mount up very quickly.

[Braco]

Hi Martin

Without having an exact inventory of the works that are required/you wish to carry out all figures are totally meaningless.

What is some structural work? Complete underpinning or replacing a door lintel?

[martin]

It's irrelevant to post on this forum what work, structual or otherwise needs doing. I am not asking any forum members for estimates. All I wanted was to be put in touch with someone of experience who could visit this or any other house I may be interested in buying and give me an guesstimate to the nearest 20,000 euros or so, so that I would have a rough idea of costs. I am not a builder, electrician, plumber plasterer or any other type of tradesman. I have absolutely no idea of renovation costs. I am not short of money, but all the same I would like to base any offer on restoration costs.

[Polly]

Well, you may not want to tell us but you will need to tell your 'expert' whoever she/he is what you consider to fall within your renovation brief.

Structural work & a foul drainage system may be obvious inclusions,

ditto any new partitions, but are you including desirable (but maybe

not essential) thermal insulation of walls, floors or roof? Are you including decorating in your renovation budget, or will this be a later DIY add-on?

How many replacement windows, what quality are you looking for, can

they be 'off the peg' or will they all have to be made to measure?

New kitchen units, tiling & appliances, is your expert to include these in the quote?

Bath taps at 50 or 500 euros?

And so on, ad infinitum.....

Will the renovation qualify for 5,5%TVA on all/part of the works?

Will you be able to get any credit d'impots or other govt help, depending on your tax situation?

I note your comment 'within 20,000 euros'. That's the cost of a bathroom or a kitchen to some, to others that sum covers a lot more.

[Braco]

And a few will be shocked that you can fit a kitchen for less than 100k.

You will almost certainly find that a major renovation completed to a high modern standard will cost considerably more than a similar new build.

[Quillan]

[quote user="martin"]It's irrelevant to post on this forum what work, structual or otherwise needs doing. I am not asking any forum members for estimates. All I wanted was to be put in touch with someone of experience who could visit this or any other house I may be interested in buying and give me an guesstimate to the nearest 20,000 euros or so, so that I would have a rough idea of costs. I am not a builder, electrician, plumber plasterer or any other type of tradesman. I have absolutely no idea of renovation costs. I am not short of money, but all the same I would like to base any offer on restoration costs.[/quote]

Absolutely, I understand exactly where you are coming from. You might like to try the following link, its in French of course but you can use a translator program.

http://www.fnaim.fr/la-fnaim/nos-metiers/expert-immobilier.html

[Théière]

[quote user="martin"]It's irrelevant to post on this forum what work, structual or otherwise needs doing. I am not asking any forum members for estimates. All I wanted was to be put in touch with someone of experience who could visit this or any other house I may be interested in buying and give me an guesstimate to the nearest 20,000 euros or so, so that I would have a rough idea of costs. I am not a builder, electrician, plumber plasterer or any other type of tradesman. I have absolutely no idea of renovation costs. I am not short of money, but all the same I would like to base any offer on restoration costs.[/quote]

I am sure not having your question answered immediately is frustrating but I have 6 good reasons why you should choose and Architect or Surveyor:

 "I am not a"

1 builder

2 Electrician

3 Plumber

4 Plasterer

5 No idea of renovation costs

6 Not short of money

To expect a builder to be skilled in all those trades would be really unnerving, to expect a builder to have friends who deal with all the other trades and have them turn up on site at the correct time bloody impossible! To try and assemble Devis or even guesstimates which aren't worth the paper they are not written on from each trade will take more time than you will have available.

In short use the correct tool for the job, architect or surveyor, sorry if you don't like my answer but there are so many people who have got it so wrong and with your lack of knowledge on the building side you sound just about ready to join them and not short of money, you will be if you don't get this right from the start.

[martin]

It's not an easy one is it? I have taken on the advice given. Thanks Anton Redman II for your PM - will likely take you up on that.

Quillan - your link is spot on thanks.

And Théière, you're absolutely right. However, I can't run to a surveyor for every house we look at, but once I can get a rough idea of renovation costs and it doesn't put me off, then I will certainly hire a surveyor before committing myself or making an offer.

[PaulT]

Plus, it is important to compare like for like, i.e. the specification and scope of the work. This is where the architect or surveyor can write these for you so that when you ask builders for quotes they have it in writing what is required to be done and also the materials to be used. Without this document you could end up with what you do not want being done.

Perhaps more importantly you will also know what it should cost. Even more important when by your own admission you know nothing about building.

Paul

[Théière]

Good luck Martin

[Wilko]

If you were to estimate at around 1500 euros/sq/m you will be covered in the great majority of cases............it is highly unlikely to be more, as long as you don't want gold taps etc/. Then find a good maitre d'oeuvre to work out the costings. Architects I have found to be next to useless in this respect and remember their fees are based on the cost of the job so they have no incentive whatsoever to economise on your behalf.

We undertook a 400 sq/m refurb here in Provence and this method worked for us.........no surveyor involved and the architect purely for his stamp on the planning application...........otherwise I would not have used one at all.

You can check out the results on

www.maspomona.com

I wonder how man of the previous posters have actually refurbed anything in France.

happy building

Wilko

[WJT]

[quote user="Wilko"]I wonder how man of the previous posters have actually refurbed anything in France. happy building Wilko[/quote]

I have and still am! I would never do it again.

I have said this before on the forum but if I had my time again particularly in the current market with all sorts of beautiful properties on the market at good prices, I would go for an old character fully renovated property for sure. We would have saved loads of money and heartache if we had done this.

However, I guess the positive side of going through the renovations ourselves is that we don't have to feel guilty of buying a property from some poor sod that lost loads of money and went though all the stress.[:D]

By the way, perhaps Wilko got lucky with his maitre d'oeuvre but we had a bad experience with ours in the very beginning and had to get rid of him, after losing a bit of money of course. By the way, the cost he initially gave us in writing for the renovations has worked out to be more than three times! If you triple and a bit what you are told you may be OK.  Good luck.

Edit: The three stars are for s.o.d. Didn't realise it was such a bad word. [8-)]

 

[mint]

S O D ling lost to Nadal today so maybe it's a pretty bad word (at least for Soderling!)

[WJT]

Thanks Sweet 17, I never thought of that. It certainly proves how quickly the forum software responds. [:)]

[zarathustra]

If I was a skilled artisan who could do a lot of work myself, I'd have

no issue with renovations. I love old stone houses, but I'd never

contemplate buying something that wasn't habitable - I'm too terrified

of costs spiralling out of control, and there being too many unforeseen

problems. I sometimes wonder how some people who do renovate, and later

sell, make any profit on what they're selling. I've heard 1500 euros per

sq/m is pretty much maximum budget, and some people have even got as low

as 600 euros per sq/m - I suppose a lot depends on where you can source

the materials, what sort of finish you're after, and what the labour costs work out to. Things usually take a lot longer, and cost a lot more than planned for.

[Anton Redman II]

I think € 1500 per square metre is nothing like the maximum people can and do spend. In the Gironde new builds to good rather than high standards are about € 1000 a square metre plus land.

[WJT]

[quote user="zarathustra"]If I was a skilled artisan who could do a lot of work myself, I'd have no issue with renovations. I love old stone houses, but I'd never contemplate buying something that wasn't habitable - I'm too terrified of costs spiralling out of control, and there being too many unforeseen problems. I sometimes wonder how some people who do renovate, and later sell, make any profit on what they're selling. I've heard 1500 euros per sq/m is pretty much maximum budget, and some people have even got as low as 600 euros per sq/m - I suppose a lot depends on where you can source the materials, what sort of finish you're after, and what the labour costs work out to. Things usually take a lot longer, and cost a lot more than planned for.
[/quote]

The problem with buying a habitable house that needs updating is that you are paying more in the first place. If you need new electrics plumbing etc.. you then pay to have them replaced and in the end it is a lot more expensive in my opinion and experience.

I know every renovation is different but if we were to put our house on the market after we finish (soon I hope, finish that is), there is no way we would even come close to recouping the money we spent not to mention the time we have invested and nightmares with a few artisans.

[just john]

Every property I've got involved in was in need of substantial improvement work and has been below market value because of that, which helps compensate for the cost of remodeling, where our intention in each case was to model the house to suit our taste. Obviously cost will vary according to standard of finish.
However the habitable ones cost more to buy because you are paying for someone's shabby kitchen and 1930's bathroom and outdated fittings. Worse I have to say, living in a house while working on it costs more than renting a similar property for several reasons.
Any work involving building alterations such as; changing existing basic fabric, roofs, walls, ceilings, floors, plumbing, rewiring, replastering are much simpler, quicker and therefore cheaper if no heed has to be paid to how much is removed from the rooms and what state they are to be left in for habitation. Specifically two houses I recently remodelled demonstrate this. (I use the term remodel because as far as I'm concerned a renovation involves much more work, such as new roof, floors, internal layout changes and finish fix).

House one, : semi derelict, tramp habitable:-   demolish internal walls, rebuild new layout stud walls, remove plaster, rewire, replumb inc Central heating, replaster, fit new kitchen and two bathrooms. 11 week turnround total : total inclusive remodel costs £38K :  Cost of alternative accommodation £3.6K

House two, purchase cost 18% more against house 1 : habitable but same works required:-   demolish internal walls, rebuild new layout stud walls, remove plaster, rewire, replumb not inc Central heating (saved but consequently not new), replaster, fit new kitchen and two bathrooms. 11 MONTH turnround total : total inclusive remodel costs £44K plus :  Cost of accommodation, Shattered nerves, spoilt furnishings.

Final value of both properties virtually the same, final difference in costs, about 25% less in unoccupied property - lesson learnt, (and peace of mind - priceless). [8-|]

 

[mint]

Zarathustra and WJT speak wise words and WJT certainly speaks from considerable experience!

In the "good old days" in the UK, when the property market was bubbling, it did pay to renovate and do a quick turnaround.

Here, in France, all renovations take forever (difficult to source skilled affordable labour and materials sometimes) and you'd need to live in the property for years to recoup the money.

Then again, lots of people do a lot of the work themselves and forget to put a price on their own time and effort.

What I say is, leave the renovation to those who want to do it.  Buy yourself a nicely renovated property, move in, pop the cork and feel suitably satisfied with life!